The commandments

[Bookcat]

Full Question
My RCIA teacher’s list of Ten Commandments excludes the second commandment forbidding idolatry and breaks the tenth into two separate commandments forbidding coveting. What is the correct listing of the Ten Commandments?
Answer

God’s commandments as recorded in Deuteronomy 5:6–21 and Exodus 20:2–17 seem to add up to more than ten, so it is not perfectly clear how their numbering is to be reckoned. The numbering used in your RCIA class is consistent with the traditional Catholic catechetical formula. Numbered this way, the commandment prohibiting idolatry is not left out but, rather, is considered to be a part of the first commandment.

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-correct-list-of-the-ten-commandments

 

[Bookcat]

"Hiding the Second Commandment?

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church “hides” the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as “You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.” (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,” though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as “You shall have no other gods before me.” This is no attempt to “hide” the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities” (CCC 2066). "

Please read the full article here:

catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues

 

[TimothyH]

the-ten-commandments.org is an anti-catholic website run by some guy in Brisbane, Australia. He has so many blatant errors that even a simple Google search could correct. Jesus himself worshipped at the Temple in Jerusalem, going up to the feasts three times each year as commanded in the law of Moses. The temple was rich with images, all of which were produced at God’s command. And remember, Jesus Christ was God - he himself had commanded that those images be made!

The guy claims that anyone who looked at the deceased body of Blessed John Paul II was worshipping him.

Does everyone remember what happened when Pope John died? Literally millions of people lined up for days to look upon a dead Pope. Never before has the world seen one man get so much worship let alone a dead man.

I suppose when I traveled to Washington DC and entered the rotunda of the US Capital to pay my respects to President Ronald Reagan, I was worshipping the dead president. I’m sure the author of that website will not be going to his own mother’s funeral, lest he be accused of worshipping his mother.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Elzeena, I’m sorry about your daughter. I lost my duaghter Stephanie to leukemia in 1996. She was 4 1/2 years old. The pain does not go away, but it does get dull and does not cut as deep.

-Tim-

 

[ellzeena]

Full Question
My RCIA teacher’s list of Ten Commandments excludes the second commandment forbidding idolatry and breaks the tenth into two separate commandments forbidding coveting. What is the correct listing of the Ten Commandments?
Answer

God’s commandments as recorded in Deuteronomy 5:6–21 and Exodus 20:2–17 seem to add up to more than ten, so it is not perfectly clear how their numbering is to be reckoned. The numbering used in your RCIA class is consistent with the traditional Catholic catechetical formula. Numbered this way, the commandment prohibiting idolatry is not left out but, rather, is considered to be a part of the first commandment.

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-correct-list-of-the-ten-commandments

I was baptised in St. Patrick’s Cathedral in 1947. I am NOT an RCIA student. I KNOW about the Roman Catholic faith, and I have serious problems with the opinions of men, under the guise of the Holy Spirit, adding to the scriptures of Matthew, Mark Luke and John. I’m not particularly interested in following the words of Paul. It’s rather like asking the Speaker of the House what the President’s statement is. I am interested in what JESUS TAUGHT US. NOWHERE does Jesus say “I empower you to speak on my behalf in the far distant future”, nowhere. When any religious tradition depends upon the words of a creature instead of the words of God, there is going to be serious error and even heresy. I don’t accept that Jesus intended the apostles, when He said “go out and teach all nations”, to change his words, reinterpret them or in any way ADD to them. I don’t accept that when Jesus said his believers would do greater things than He himself did he intended that ONLY for his apostles. I think the hierarchy of this church, through the ages, based upon political and sociological reasons, has distorted the original teaching of Jesus.

I’ve walked with God for my entire life – almost 65 years. I’ve studied, seriously; I know what God is NOT but no one can say what God IS. As an extremely young child I have memories of this experience and He’s had me by the root of my hairs for a lifetime. If I am a heretic, then I will “burn in hell” but I know I am NOT because I DO “test the spirits” and I know the truth from the falsehood. I’m sorry I began this entire thread, I apologize. This obviously isn’t a comfortable subject.

 

[PJM]

=Bookcat;8410726]Such is the will of Jesus.

Paul too was the idea of Jesus.

And what he wrote is the inspired Word of God…

So certainly one ought not be bothered by all by Paul and the fact of his great importance.

Originally Posted by ellzeena
I really find it offensive that so much of the church teaching …depends upon PAUL.

That is an unusual position. Why do you feel this way?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[VicTorDominican]

I used to think the same way a long time ago. Then I realized I must be silent on fornication and abortion, because Jesus was silent. Then I realized when it comes to opinions of men … my opinion is just another opinion of just another man. Then I realized that Matthew and Luke added to Mark, and John added to the other three, so I whittled my Bible down to just the gospel of Mark. Then I found out that the end of the gospel of Mark is missing, and what they have in modern Bibles (16:9-20) was added by someone else. After I tore off the last page and scratched out all the other additions and opinions of men, I was left with no virgin birth, no resurrection, and no church - just the satisfaction that I had the pure uncontaminated teachings of Jesus.

 

[Bookcat]

I was baptised in St. Patrick’s Cathedral in 1947. I am NOT an RCIA student. I KNOW about the Roman Catholic faith, and I have serious problems with the opinions of men, under the guise of the Holy Spirit, adding to the scriptures of Matthew, Mark Luke and John. I’m not particularly interested in following the words of Paul. It’s rather like asking the Speaker of the House what the President’s statement is. I am interested in what JESUS TAUGHT US. NOWHERE does Jesus say “I empower you to speak on my behalf in the far distant future”, nowhere. When any religious tradition depends upon the words of a creature instead of the words of God, there is going to be serious error and even heresy. I don’t accept that Jesus intended the apostles, when He said “go out and teach all nations”, to change his words, reinterpret them or in any way ADD to them. I don’t accept that when Jesus said his believers would do greater things than He himself did he intended that ONLY for his apostles. I think the hierarchy of this church, through the ages, based upon political and sociological reasons, has distorted the original teaching of Jesus.

I’ve walked with God for my entire life – almost 65 years. I’ve studied, seriously; I know what God is NOT but no one can say what God IS. As an extremely young child I have memories of this experience and He’s had me by the root of my hairs for a lifetime. If I am a heretic, then I will “burn in hell” but I know I am NOT because I DO “test the spirits” and I know the truth from the falsehood. I’m sorry I began this entire thread, I apologize. This obviously isn’t a comfortable subject.

Yes it seemed you came here seeking for answers to what you found on that site. I have provided you with answers.

You seem now to rather desire to follow you personal take on things, including on religion.

Jesus did found a Church and gave that Church authority to teach …via the Apostles and their successors. The Bible is indeed the inspired word of God. I will not though now go through giving a response to all your comments for it seems you do not actually seek here such a response…do not seem to seek answers. (and I would suggest you may not know the Catholic Faith as well as you think…).

I will note though that what you know of Jesus in so far as the writings of the Gospels…

is still coming through men.…

(tis the way of God)

I wish you well and pray for your good.

BC

 

[pablope]

I used to think the same way a long time ago. Then I realized I must be silent on fornication and abortion, because Jesus was silent. Then I realized when it comes to opinions of men … my opinion is just another opinion of just another man. Then I realized that Matthew and Luke added to Mark, and John added to the other three, so I whittled my Bible down to just the gospel of Mark. Then I found out that the end of the gospel of Mark is missing, and what they have in modern Bibles (16:9-20) was added by someone else. After I tore off the last page and scratched out all the other additions and opinions of men, I was left with no virgin birth, no resurrection, and no church - just the satisfaction that I had the pure uncontaminated teachings of Jesus.

Then, let me ask you a question then, Victor…Can you provide the chapter and verse where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark? Once you find this, how then can you be sure that Mark is indeed the author of the Gospel of Mark? And how would you know that it is not just any other guy named Mark?

 

[pablope]

I was baptised in St. Patrick’s Cathedral in 1947. I am NOT an RCIA student.

I KNOW about the Roman Catholic faith, and I have serious problems with the opinions of men, under the guise of the Holy Spirit, adding to the scriptures of Matthew, Mark Luke and John.

 

[Nita]

The “examination of conscience” I quoted (URL) in my original question contains a long, very long, list of common, everyday things (like using obscenity) that constitute MORTAL sin according to that site. .

I went back to the site (URL) you gave in your opening post thinking I must have missed them saying these were mortal sins. But there is no such statement. Nowhere that I could find does it say that these offences constitute mortal sins.
If it’s there and I’m just missing it, would you copy and paste the line that says it?

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Elzeena: I certainly WAS taught I should have such a fear, by the nuns who educated me for twelve years.

By the by, you probably weren’t educated by nuns, who are cloistered ascetics and don’t teach in schools, but by religious sisters. Some people use the terms interchangeably, though.

 

[ellzeena]

I went back to the site (URL) you gave in your opening post thinking I must have missed them saying these were mortal sins. But there is no such statement. Nowhere that I could find does it say that these offences constitute mortal sins.
If it’s there and I’m just missing it, would you copy and paste the line that says it?

Second Commandment

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

Have I…

Used the name of God in cursing or blasphemy?
Failed to keep vows or promises that I have made to God?
Spoken about the Faith, the Church, the saints, or sacred things with irreverence, hatred or defiance?
Watched television or movies, or listened to music that treated God, the Church, the saints, or sacred things irreverently?
**Used vulgar, suggestive or obscene speech?**
Belittled others in my speech?
Behaved disrespectfully in Church?
Misused places or things set apart for the worship of God?
Committed perjury? (Breaking an oath or lying under oath.)
Blamed God for my failings?

“Used vulgar, suggestive or obscene speech” in the examination of conscience is a breaking the 2nd Commandment according to the RC Church, thereby being a mortal sin.

 

[ellzeena]

By the by, you probably weren’t educated by nuns, who are cloistered ascetics and don’t teach in schools, but by religious sisters. Some people use the terms interchangeably, though.

I don’t care what you call them. They dressed in habits (Sisters of Mercy). I remember one telling us that every time we left the house we should remind ourselves “This could be the last time” and examine our conscience for mortal or venial sin.

 

[ellzeena]

Allow me to point out something. “Praying” to a catholic is not idolizing or worship. Worship is during the Mass. When we pray to saints, we are asking for them to pray with us to God for a plea, a petition, and we ask their intercession.

This URL has a side by side comparison of what the Ten Commandments say and how the RC Church has reinterpreted them. You have to scroll down:
the-ten-commandments.org/romancatholic-tencommandments.html

[/QUOTE]

 

[Bookcat]

"Hiding the Second Commandment?

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church “hides” the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as “You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain.” (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3) and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image” (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,” though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as “You shall have no other gods before me.” This is no attempt to “hide” the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities” (CCC 2066). "

Please read the full article here:

catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues

 

[Bookcat]

Second Commandment

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

Have I…

Used the name of God in cursing or blasphemy?
Failed to keep vows or promises that I have made to God?
Spoken about the Faith, the Church, the saints, or sacred things with irreverence, hatred or defiance?
Watched television or movies, or listened to music that treated God, the Church, the saints, or sacred things irreverently?
**Used vulgar, suggestive or obscene speech?**
Belittled others in my speech?
Behaved disrespectfully in Church?
Misused places or things set apart for the worship of God?
Committed perjury? (Breaking an oath or lying under oath.)
Blamed God for my failings?

“Used vulgar, suggestive or obscene speech” in the examination of conscience is a breaking the 2nd Commandment according to the RC Church, thereby being a mortal sin.

The Ten Commandments yes involve mortal sins. Sure. * But not everything that falls under the Ten Commandments is a mortal sin…is a grave matter*. There is much that are venial sins.

and that example of “vulgar speech” could be such an example. Some “bad language” …using bad words etc is often going to be venial…and at times not even a sin.

 

[ellzeena]

ellzeena;8411115:

Let me ask you a question,Can you provide the chapter and verse where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark? Once you find this, how then can you be sure that Mark is indeed the author of the Gospel of Mark? And how do you know that the Gosple of Mark is Scripture?"

I know from study and scrutiny over the years who the gospel of “Mark” is attributed to and the approximate time of its writing. It is “scripture” because the church calls it so. I have no say in this matter.

I posed a whole entire answer to someone and it just isn’t here, it’s quite difficult to use this forum (as it is structured). Bobcat said:

"I will note though that what you know of Jesus in so far as the writings of the Gospels…

is still coming through men…"

Yes of course it’s coming through men.

VicTorDominican said:
I used to think the same way a long time ago. Then I realized I must be silent on fornication and abortion, because Jesus was silent. Then I realized when it comes to opinions of men … my opinion is just another opinion of just another man. Then I realized that Matthew and Luke added to Mark, and John added to the other three, so I whittled my Bible down to just the gospel of Mark. Then I found out that the end of the gospel of Mark is missing, and what they have in modern Bibles (16:9-20) was added by someone else. After I tore off the last page and scratched out all the other additions and opinions of men, I was left with no virgin birth, no resurrection, and no church - just the satisfaction that I had the pure uncontaminated teachings of Jesus. "

Fornication is condemned in the OT and abortion is murder. This quote reminds me of that study, “The Jesus Seminar” which resulted in much the same conclusion: that the words of Jesus (what he actually said) comprised about three sentences.

Where does that leave us?

Praying to “saints” is ok because they’re in “heaven” but communicating with those who have passed on is NOT ok because they’re NOT in “heaven”. And we know this, how? I’ve done substantial research on NDEs. These are genuine experiences (not every one of them but those I’ve studied). My sister in law had three following three major heart attacks in a row when she was in her early 40s. In all three the same thing occurred: she went into a “white place”, there was an "angel’ and Someone she said was God. This being asked her three times, “Why shall I not take you”. the third time she answered, “my CHILDREN” and the being responded by saying “Then for love.” SO…she was allowed to remain alive, she was not “judged”, she saw “God” or at least a being she thinks was God, AND…her cousin is a world class pediatric cardiologist who said she would not be able to leave the hospital without a heart TRANSPLANT because her heart had been seriously damaged. Today, at age 62, her heart is NORMAL. She was healed.

What WAS that? One NDE that can’t be explained and is presently the hallmark of this experience is Pam Anderson. She was rendered medically “dead”: body temperature drastically reduced, blood drained from her body, eyes taped closed, ears plugged shut, brain flatline, heart flatline, for hours during very delicate brain surgery. Yet she SAW the tools the doctors used, she SAW relatives and loved ones that had passed on, she SAW the “light”. Her consciousness survived what was actual physical death and she reported all of this to her astonished doctors when she was able to communicate during recovery. What WAS that?

When John Paul II died, he was DEAD, was he not? But people prayed to him, the result being an apparent miraculous cure. People were communicating with the DEAD when they prayed to him. Now he is beatified it’s perfectly ok. But it’s not ok for others to use the God given gifts of bona fide psychics to contact THEIR dead beloved ones. I’ve been psychic my entire life, this is a gift from God. I had a vision as a five year old preparing me for my life, I was told I would have a broken heart, I was given the number “23”, ALL of this prepared me for what has been a horrific life experience interspersed by various times of happiness. Without that vision, I would not have survived. What WAS that? You think Satan communicated with me??? NO.

People who communicate via psychic mediums (and I am not a psychic medium) get in touch with their loved ones, receive information no one else could possibly just “know”, and many of such people are then suddenly aware that THERE IS A GOD, THERE IS A SOUL, and then turn to God. They don’t worship Satan, they thank GOD.

Far too much politicking and back room dealing and socioeconomic factors were involved in church hierarchy throughout its existence, far too much. Most obvious example: failure of the Papacy and Church to follow the request of Our Lady of Fatima and dedicate Russia to God. Several books written by priests in collaboration with those “behind the scenes” make these accounts more than worthy of serious consideration. Men are fallible; judgments are made with deliberate intention or even subconscious intention. Quoting Paul is not quoting Jesus but that’s what everyone does. It seems the entirety of Christianity relies on Paul, a man who never KNEW Jesus. So therefor if you read this with an open mind you will understand my confusion, my reluctance to take as the word of God the ex cathedra statements made by many Popes, and my question (as originally posed) regarding how in the world anyone is supposed to keep all the rules outlined in that link:
beginningcatholic.com/catholic-examination-of-conscience.html

In a word: impossible.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Second Commandment

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

Have I…

Used the name of God in cursing or blasphemy?
Failed to keep vows or promises that I have made to God?
Spoken about the Faith, the Church, the saints, or sacred things with irreverence, hatred or defiance?
Watched television or movies, or listened to music that treated God, the Church, the saints, or sacred things irreverently?
Used vulgar, suggestive or obscene speech?
Belittled others in my speech?
Behaved disrespectfully in Church?
Misused places or things set apart for the worship of God?
Committed perjury? (Breaking an oath or lying under oath.)
Blamed God for my failings?

“Used vulgar, suggestive or obscene speech” in the examination of conscience is a breaking the 2nd Commandment according to the RC Church, thereby being a mortal sin.

With respect, I think you are in error here. There is nothing in Catholic teaching which states “breaking a commandment is ALWAYS a MORTAL SIN”. In fact, breaking a commandment is intrinsically sinful but the sin could be VENIAL, not just mortal. I do not see anything here which states, "all these questions under the examination of conscience are mortal sins’. . .

And are you really trying to tell us that a person who uses vulgar, suggestive or obscene speech isn’t doing anything sinful at all?

 

[PJM]

=ellzeena;8410714]This is the church of JESUS the Christ, not PAUL the Apostle. JESUS told us what to believe, how to pray, what was acceptable to the Father and by his own demeanor showed us how to LIVE in order to please God. I really find it offensive that so much of the church teaching (and this is for Protestantism also since I was in evangelical protestantism for years for a while) depends upon PAUL. Paul did not go to the cross for us. Jesus did. And the recent (most recent) analysis of the Shroud of Turin places NO DOUBT about this. It was carefully analyzed for blood type (AB positive) and the manner in which it was created was scientifically reversed. For information regarding this:
greatshroudofturinfaq.com/

Something “supernatural” occurred upon his resurrection which created the “form” and they have even extracted a “picture” of Jesus from this examination. I saw one of the scientists on television who was part of this examination. He was an atheist at the time he began and was weeping when he spoke of how this man had been so badly battered that he looked like he had been in “a car wreck.”

It’s JESUS we should be following, not Paul. Paul’s commentaries to the churches are his own; perhaps they were inspired, perhaps not, only God knows that. Yet the Church insists on referring to them constantly. It’s JESUS who paid the price, Paul was martyred because of his faith in JESUS. I had a vision of the Blessed Mother as a five year old child, does this make ME a prophet capable of speaking for God in place of Jesus? NO.

There’s a lot of information in my original question. There are two very comprehensive URL sites I quoted. No one can answer my questions without reviewing those sites and giving them careful consideration.

OK:shrug:

1. So the FACT that God choose Paul doesn’t matter"

Acts. 9: 8-17 [wrtiiten by St. Luke] "Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani’as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani’as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, and he has seen a man named Anani’as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” But Anani’as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem;
and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” ***But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” *** So Anani’as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

1. Nor does the fact that Paul suffetred more than ANY other Apostle?
2. Nor does the FACT that Paul is Doing precisely what the HS [God] is directing him to do?
3. Nor does **2nd. Tim. 3:16 ** " ***All scripture is inspired by God ***and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"

Friend are you REALLY a Catholic or someone just making waves?

God Bless you, If we all did God’s Will as fully as did Paul Heaven would actually be larger than hell.

Pat