The commandments

[ellzeena]

ellzeena, I must say, I don’t get the impression that you are Catholic at all. Your perspective and your terminology use suggests to me that you are an anti-Catholic who, like hundreds before, thinks their proselytizing will be more effective if they pretend to be Catholic. Let me tell you now - it never works.

Extremely judgmental and condemnatory on your part. I am a Roman Catholic with a realistic view regarding the fact that HUMANS can, and do, make grave errors in their office(s). I am not proselytizing and I am not a “pretend” Catholic. I am an Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister. I bring the Eucharist to people dying in the hospital. YOU??

I think you’d best read your bible. And I think you’d best read my posts without your personal bias. Do you think that God is unable to communicate to YOU or to ME through other people? Then your God is quite small, quite limited. SUPPOSE what I have to say is TRUE? WHAT do you think I’m DOING here (against my natural predilection by the way)? Is it even remotely possible that what I have to say is the TRUTH? Are you able to tell the truth from the fantasy? Look up the definition of “superstition”…it includes all religious beliefs. Look up the definition of “magical thinking” (PDR, psychiatry), it relegates all who believe that “supernatural” supplication or actions to the category of “psychosis”. I think making statements such as the one you just made are an indication of your spiritual condition, not mine.

 

[Farsight001]

Extremely judgmental and condemnatory on your part. I am a Roman Catholic with a realistic view regarding the fact that HUMANS can, and do, make grave errors in their office(s). I am not proselytizing and I am not a “pretend” Catholic. I am an Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister. I bring the Eucharist to people dying in the hospital. YOU??

Here’s the thing about all that. I don’t believe you.

I think you’d best read your bible.

I do.

And I think you’d best read my posts without your personal bias.

I did. It is due to reading your posts that I came to my conclusion. How would it be possible for me to decide you are non-Catholic before reading your posts?

Do you think that God is unable to communicate to YOU or to ME through other people?

No, I don’t think God is unable to do this. However, you seem to believe that he is unable in your criticism of Paul’s words. People have already explained to you that God teaches us through Paul’s writings, and you still suggest we should not be listening to him. That is the very perspective you are speaking of.

Then your God is quite small, quite limited.

You’re the one who says he doesn’t speak to us through other people like Paul. So it would be your God who is limited.

SUPPOSE what I have to say is TRUE? WHAT do you think I’m DOING here (against my natural predilection by the way)? Is it even remotely possible that what I have to say is the TRUTH?

No, it’s not possible, as other posters have already indepthly shown.

Are you able to tell the truth from the fantasy?

Typically.

Look up the definition of “superstition”…it includes all religious beliefs. Look up the definition of “magical thinking” (PDR, psychiatry), it relegates all who believe that “supernatural” supplication or actions to the category of “psychosis”. I think making statements such as the one you just made are an indication of your spiritual condition, not mine.

Superstition - 1. credulity regarding the supernatural. 2. irrational fear of the unknown. 3. practice, opinion, or religion based on these tendencies.

Magical thinking - causal reasoning that looks for correlation between certain events. In regards to psychology, it is typically the irrational fear of one thing because someone sees a correlation to another, as in, for example, having an aversion to goats because they have horns and satan has horns too.

First of all, superstition does not include all religious belief. Most religious belief, in fact, would not qualify, because it does not involve irrational fear of the unknown, nor a certain gullibility regarding the supernatural. (belief in supernatural, yes. credulity, no.)

Second, none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand. You’re providing typical tells that indicate what I have already said. There’s no reading into anything going on. But if we’re going to do that, then let me point out that I said NOTHING regarding your spiritual condition, so it appears that you’re the one doing the reading into things.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

They aren’t the same person. I guess you’ve never raised a child.

Hold hard here. . .I’ve raised THREE children and currently have a 10 month old grandson. When my children were year old babies, they were the same ‘person’ as they would be 5, 10, 20 years later. . .not in ‘externals’ such as length of hair, weight, height, ‘language’ facility, talents. . .but the same DNA, the same SOUL, regardless.

You kind of remind me of a poster we once had here who --quite seriously–believed that HE wasn’t the same person day to day; that when he SLEPT, he ‘lost’ the person he had been that day and became a ‘new’ person when he awoke.

So what about that man Jesus son of Joseph. . .born of the Virgin Mary. Guess HE wasn’t the same person when He died on the cross at 33 than He was as the infant born of Mary?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ellzena, other posters as well as I have repeatedly indicated to you that there is absolutely nothing (that we have seen) in the ‘examination of conscience list’ which you have posted which indicates that all the items under it are ‘mortal sins’. Would you please address the fact that you isolate one item and castigate the Church for calling ‘indecent, vulgar, obscene speech’ a MORTAL SIN when in fact, the Church has not done any such thing? You’re the one calling it a mortal sin (which it isn’t) and then blaming the Church for calling it such (but the Church is not doing so).

BTW, the preferred term is “Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion” (EMHC) but quite a few parishes didn’t get the memo. Nothing to worry about, we all know what you mean, but I figured you would probably want to use the correct terminology once you were aware of it.
In the Catholic Church|Roman Catholic Church, the only minister who in the person of Christ, can bring the sacrament of the Eucharist,(who can consecrate the host into the body and blood of Christ) is a validly ordained priest.(Canon Law 900)
The ordinary ministers of Holy Communion, by reason of their sacred ordination are the bishop, the priest and the deacon (Redemptionis Sacramentum 54) The extra ordinary minister of Holy Communion is an instituted Acolyte, or other members of Christ’s faithful,who may have been delegated by the diocesan bishop for a one time occasion or for a specified amount of time (Redemptionis Sacramentum 155) and are to be used only when there are an insufficient number of Ordinary ministers present during the mass.(Redemptionis Sacramentum 158)[1]
The phrase “Eucharistic minister” has sometimes been used improperly to refer to an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion. Laity may be appointed Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion only on a temporary basis and used only when there are insufficient numbers of priests, deacons, and instituted acolytes to distribute communion at Mass.

In order to avoid confusion about this function, an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion is not to be called a “special minister of Holy Communion”, nor an “extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist”, nor a “special minister of the Eucharist”.[4]
Ten years before publication of the present Code of Canon Law, some of these expressions were used in the instruction of the Sacred Congregation of the Sacraments Immensae caritatis of 29 January 1973. They are now reprobated.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes I am REALLY a Catholic. But I’m also an educated person capable of careful analysis.

The difficulty is a number of the ideas you have put forth in this thread are simply not Catholic and indeed are not compatible with the Catholic Faith.

Hence it has been suggested even that you are not a Catholic.

 

[Bookcat]

Paul (Saul of Tarsus) was not present at the time. “Go and make disciples of all men…teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you…” these are the words of Jesus.

He doesn’t say, “all the teaching Paul has given you…”

Jesus himself sent Paul …and Paul was received by Peter and the Church…and the Church has decided that his writings are the inspired Word of God…just as are that of Peter…or Luke or Mark…

I have no pride, I have the leading of the Holy Spirit in my soul, in my heart, in my mind, and it is revealed to me as God engineers the course of my life on a day to day basis.

You have the leading of the Holy Spirit…but not Paul who was confirmed by the Church and and inspired by the Holy Spirit??? .

I CAN follow Jesus without Paul. I DO follow Jesus without Paul.

Paul was sent by Jesus …and his words in his letters are indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit…we are to accept them and live them.

I reject the infallibility of those Popes who made ex cathedra declarations for selfish, monetary, political and personal gain (and this HAS happened).

Such has never happened. Why cause the Holy Spirit prevents such…and we of course are not to reject the teachings of the Church

Blindly following is error, in my humble opinion.

We do not follow blindly…we follow with the obedience of Faith.

“Without presuming that the perpetrators are conscious enemies of the Church (although some of them may well be), based on the evidence it appears that the probable motive for the crime [withholding the full message of Fatima] is this: The perpetrators recognize that the contents of the Message of Fatima, as understood in the traditional Catholic sense, cannot coexist with decisions made since the Second Vatican Council…convert[ing] the Catholic Church from a divine institution that directs its earthly activity toward the eternal salvation of souls to a mere co-participant with human organizations…” (“The Devil’s Final Battle”, . xxi) In 1984, (then) Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, admits that a crisis of faith is affecting the Church around the world and revealed he has read the Third Secret and that the Secret refers to “dangers threatening the faith and life of the Christian and therefore (the life) of the world”. He is now the Pope. He has not dedicated Russia to the Blessed Virgin and is not likely to do so, ever. It is reported that a portion of this Secret is known to be a warning of apostasy in the Church, at its highest levels. Do the math.

It is also important to note as to the private revelations of Fatima…the third secret was entirely released and the consecration was done as confirmed by Sr. Lucia. What you came across is a “conspiracy theory” only. (and we can trust both Pope (bl) John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI and Sr. Lucia)

Blindly following anything is always a mistake.

It is not blindness…it is Faith and Reason.

God is merciful and communicates with us through his creation on a daily basis.

Not contrary to his Public Revelation…and he guides us very importantly by the Teaching of his Church…we should not choose our own ideas over the Teachings of the Church.

I think one has to be ready, willing and able to question authority. I think it’s required of us, actually.

There can be certain respectful questions in certain areas (for example a prudential judgment of particular Bishop etc…it may be that one can respectfully suggest a different approach etc) …but no our way of life is not “question authority” not in terms of the Church…but rather live ones Faith and live the obedience of Faith as Sacred Scripture says

 

[pablope]

This is misinterpretation to me. MT 28:18, "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Why do you think this is a misinterpretation? And what do you think is the correct interpretation?

I reject the infallibility of those Popes who made ex cathedra declarations for selfish, monetary, political and personal gain (and this HAS happened).

 

[ellzeena]

Hold hard here. . .I’ve raised THREE children and currently have a 10 month old grandson. When my children were year old babies, they were the same ‘person’ as they would be 5, 10, 20 years later. . .not in ‘externals’ such as length of hair, weight, height, ‘language’ facility, talents. . .but the same DNA, the same SOUL, regardless.

You kind of remind me of a poster we once had here who --quite seriously–believed that HE wasn’t the same person day to day; that when he SLEPT, he ‘lost’ the person he had been that day and became a ‘new’ person when he awoke.

So what about that man Jesus son of Joseph. . .born of the Virgin Mary. Guess HE wasn’t the same person when He died on the cross at 33 than He was as the infant born of Mary?

Your pastor was mentally ill. Yes even priests have psychosis. Perhaps he had an underlying psychosis. I never said I wasn’t the “same” person when I woke as I had been the day before. Children change; the term “person” is not identical to the term “soul”. A person(ality) is capable of extreme change. A kind person can be driven to harsh behaviors due to abuse or neglect in childhood; an angry person can attend seminars and be taught to control his anger. Your comment is insulting, uncalled for, and would would Jesus say about it?

 

[ellzeena]

Why do you think this is a misinterpretation? And what do you think is the correct interpretation?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Your pastor was mentally ill. Yes even priests have psychosis. Perhaps he had an underlying psychosis. I never said I wasn’t the “same” person when I woke as I had been the day before. Children change; the term “person” is not identical to the term “soul”. A person(ality) is capable of extreme change. A kind person can be driven to harsh behaviors due to abuse or neglect in childhood; an angry person can attend seminars and be taught to control his anger. Your comment is insulting, uncalled for, and would would Jesus say about it?

POSTER is what I said, not pastor.

My comment was not insulting OR uncalled for and we’ll know what Jesus has to say about it in the Last Judgment because He knows my heart.

Furthermore, you’re attempting to change your arguments and terms. You said nothing about personality in the post I responded to. Let me refresh your memory.

Victor posted this:

Your argument is essentially the same as someone who sees a baby once and then 30 years later meets him again all grown up and denies they’re the same person

.
To which YOU responded thus:

They are Not the same person. I guess you never raised a child.

To which I responded with the above.

And I stand by it. I believe you were wrong when you responded with ‘not the same person’ and nothing further at that time. Now you’re trying to imply that you ‘meant’ ‘personality-wise’ but that is not what you said at the time.

 

[Farsight001]

Your pastor was mentally ill. Yes even priests have psychosis. Perhaps he had an underlying psychosis. I never said I wasn’t the “same” person when I woke as I had been the day before. Children change; the term “person” is not identical to the term “soul”. A person(ality) is capable of extreme change. A kind person can be driven to harsh behaviors due to abuse or neglect in childhood; an angry person can attend seminars and be taught to control his anger. Your comment is insulting, uncalled for, and would would Jesus say about it?

Please leave the psychology to the psychologists. Calling that behavior psychosis is so far off the mark, I don’t know where to begin.

 

[PJM]

=ellzeena;8415030]This is misinterpretation to me. MT 28:18, "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Paul (Saul of Tarsus) was not present at the time. “Go and make disciples of all men…teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you…” these are the words of Jesus. He doesn’t say, “all the teaching Paul has given you…” I have no pride, I have the leading of the Holy Spirit in my soul, in my heart, in my mind, and it is revealed to me as God engineers the course of my life on a day to day basis. I CAN follow Jesus without Paul. I DO follow Jesus without Paul. I reject the infallibility of those Popes who made ex cathedra declarations for selfish, monetary, political and personal gain (and this HAS happened). “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age” doesn’t mean the BISHOPS, the CARDINALS, the POPES, it means YOU, it means ME “Enter through the narrows gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14). Blindly following is error, in my humble opinion. Jesus fulfilled the Law down to the very last words spoken on the cross which were originally in the OT so that the Orthodox among the crowd would recognize this fulfillment. I’m not trying to be “right” or prove anyone “wrong”, I’m following my heart and the God I have leaned on for my entire life.

“Without presuming that the perpetrators are conscious enemies of the Church (although some of them may well be), based on the evidence it appears that the probable motive for the crime [withholding the full message of Fatima] is this: The perpetrators recognize that the contents of the Message of Fatima, as understood in the traditional Catholic sense, cannot coexist with decisions made since the Second Vatican Council…convert[ing] the Catholic Church from a divine institution that directs its earthly activity toward the eternal salvation of souls to a mere co-participant with human organizations…” (“The Devil’s Final Battle”, . xxi) In 1984, (then) Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, admits that a crisis of faith is affecting the Church around the world and revealed he has read the Third Secret and that the Secret refers to “dangers threatening the faith and life of the Christian and therefore (the life) of the world”. He is now the Pope. He has not dedicated Russia to the Blessed Virgin and is not likely to do so, ever. It is reported that a portion of this Secret is known to be a warning of apostasy in the Church, at its highest levels. Do the math.

Blindly following anything is always a mistake. God is merciful and communicates with us through his creation on a daily basis. For some, He does this in a more profound manner, up front and personal. He does not want one soul to perish and will go to great lengths to prevent that from occurring, even to following each individual soul into the depths in order to offer one moment of salvation. I know this to be true. And he forgives easily, but there are limits. I don’t know what those limits are. I don’t presume to be a prophet but I’ve been led and loved by God since very, very early childhood. I think one has to be ready, willing and able to question authority. I think it’s required of us, actually.

From youth I knew something cataclysmic would occur during my lifetime. This might have been part of the message I received during my vision at age 5 and it might very well have been directed at me for certainly something cataclysmic did occur. But that “feeling”, that “sense” of its coming, is still there. I think we are looking, square in the eye, a serious chastisement.

I will share a final note:

Your attitude of knowing more and knowing better than the Church Fathers and our Pope are NOT going to be accepted or well received by Jesus; the JUST judge. But your an adult; God lets all of choose hell or heaven. To this point you have clearly made the wrong choice.

**Rev.2: 23 “**and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

**1 Peter 1: 17 “**Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,

May God grant you humility and understading while you still have time to chahe your mind;

God Bless you,

Pat

 

[regression]

ellzeena, getting back to the thread topic about the 10 commandments, are you still under the impression the Catholic church “changed” the commandments? Reading through the first link in the first post, some of the charges against the Catholic Church are pretty laughable. Have you read any links others have posted? Here is, in my opinion, a good explanation on the different groupings.

fisheaters.com/10commandments.html

 

[pablope]

Really? With all charity, could you kindly explain how my points were made without charity?

So, asking for the qoute, source, of your statements, so that we can see for ourselves, is being uncharitable?

As I recall, you asked a question…some provided answers…and you provided more anti-catholic statements…and you were asked to provide your sources…so this is being uncharitable?

Many here have been loving and open minded and willing to conduct rational discussion, some have been insulting and arrogant. Choose which group you belong to.

I know which I belong too…I choose to side with the Church were Peter resides.

Your statement: “You seem to be cutting and pasting from anti-catholic sources…and i doubt you are catholic. I think you are a sedevacantist…but correct me if I am wrong.”

I doubt anyone is able to “correct” you and you are wrong.

I made an assumption based on your posts…and I asked to correct me…in other words…to provide clarification…that is all I asked.

And thank you for providing the clarification below:

I am not a sedevacantist since I have great love and respect for John Paul II; it is John XXIII who apparently outright refused to reveal the third secret of Fatima. I am not cutting and pasting anything.

See, now you are stating something again…about John XXIII…and how do you know that he refused to reveal the third secret of Fatima? If he did, why? He must have had a good reason too…so now, I am requesting you to prove this statement of yours…please provide sources, qoutes…etc.

I was baptised in St. Patrick’s Cathedral by Archibishop McIntyre in March of 1947; I attended St. Joseph where I received first Holy Communion and Confirmation; I attended St. Michael’s Academy through grade 12. I am a Roman Catholic.

I hope and pray you also grow in love and charity…and humility.