The Communion of Saints

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To put it simply – because “Rome has spoken”; case closed.
 
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Juxtaposer:
Why should I believe in it?
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Perhaps if you would disclose what you do believe, we can build on that. It is always easier to understand or accept a truth when you can build on another truth.

So… what parts of the Creed do you totally, without reservation, accept, and do you believe faith and reason can work together?

MrS
 
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Juxtaposer:
Ok. Most Protestants don’t believe in the communion of saints. Notice how the ones that do believe in it have more respect for Mary. I would like to venerate her more. I’m just researching to make sure I don’t do anything blasphemous.\QUOTE]

blasphemy:
  1. (a) A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God. (b) Claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
  2. An irreverent act, attitude, or utterance regarding something invioable or sacrosanct.
And somehow Juxtaposer is concerned about commiting it via acts involved with the communion of saints.

Since both 1a and 1b are direct assaults on God, they really don’t apply, the communion of saints is clearly indirect.

So, with no other information, I would humbly suggest to this forum to understand Juxtaposer along the lines of definition 2.
I am willing to be corrected. :hmmm:
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Huiou Theou:
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Juxtaposer:
Ok. Most Protestants don’t believe in the communion of saints. Notice how the ones that do believe in it have more respect for Mary. I would like to venerate her more. I’m just researching to make sure I don’t do anything blasphemous.\QUOTE]

blasphemy:
  1. (a) A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God. (b) Claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
  2. An irreverent act, attitude, or utterance regarding something invioable or sacrosanct.
And somehow Juxtaposer is concerned about commiting it via acts involved with the communion of saints.

Since both 1a and 1b are direct assaults on God, they really don’t apply, the communion of saints is clearly indirect.

So, with no other information, I would humbly suggest to this forum to understand Juxtaposer along the lines of definition 2.
I am willing to be corrected. :hmmm:
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That quote was from the thread “Salvation Through Mary???” I am reluctant to venerate her in certain ways in fear of worshiping her latria style. This, to me, would be blasphemous. If you could point me to somewhere in the Bible or the early Church father’s writings regarding the communion of saints I’d appreciate it.
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All Christians, whether dead or alive are part of the Communion of Saints (hope I’m correct in that). In Acts 9:1-5 Jesus asks Saul (Paul) who is persecuting the Christians of Jerusalem “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” By persecuting the followers of Jesus, he was persecuting Jesus Himself.

Romans 12:4-8 - For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ and individually parts of one another.

1Cor 12:12-27 - But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:22 - And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Ephesians 4:15 - Rather, living the trugh in love, we should grow in every way into him who is thea head, Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper function of each part, brings about the body’s growh and builds itself up in love.

If someone else hasn’t yet, I’ll put in some verses that pertain to intercessory prayer, asking the Saints for their prayers and some from the EFCs.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
All I see in rev. is that the saints in heaven are offering the prayers of the saints here on earth. Its not their prayers but ours that are being presented. The heavenly saints are no more than Gods servants in heaven. :confused:
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That’s not considered intercessory, when you put forth prayers for others before God? :confused:
 
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AmandaPS:
That’s not considered intercessory, when you put forth prayers for others before God? :confused:
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I guess I was looking at a verbal intercession. Our prayers reach the heavens and then they are gathered by the angels and saints and presented to the Lord. They intercede by gathering them,but its not their prayers. :confused:
 
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SPOKENWORD:
I guess I was looking at a verbal intercession. Our prayers reach the heavens and then they are gathered by the angels and saints and presented to the Lord. They intercede by gathering them,but its not their prayers. :confused:
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Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. To clear up some confusion on my end; You’re looking for specific Biblical passages that show that the Saints in heaven are doing more than collecting our prayers and passing them along to God? Rev 5:8, I think, is where the prayers are collected as incense and presented to God.

Is it my understanding that the verbalization of prayers is because all those in heaven can verbalize/sing the praises of Jesus? How about Rev 8:3-4, which says, “And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.”
 
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AmandaPS:
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. To clear up some confusion on my end; You’re looking for specific Biblical passages that show that the Saints in heaven are doing more than collecting our prayers and passing them along to God? Rev 5:8, I think, is where the prayers are collected as incense and presented to God.

Is it my understanding that the verbalization of prayers is because all those in heaven can verbalize/sing the praises of Jesus? How about Rev 8:3-4, which says, “And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.”
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I don’t have a problem with the fact that those in Heaven are praying for us. I have a problem with them being able to hear the prayers in the first place. Now that I think of it, though, how could they pray if they didn’t hear? I guess what I need to be sure of then is that the prayers that they’re praying are our prayers.
 
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Juxtaposer:
I don’t have a problem with the fact that those in Heaven are praying for us. I have a problem with them being able to hear the prayers in the first place. Now that I think of it, though, how could they pray if they didn’t hear? I guess what I need to be sure of then is that the prayers that they’re praying are our prayers.
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In Catholic theolgy it’s called the “beatific vision” meaning that saints only hear us because they are in Christ and he allows them to hear and pray for us. If you want scripture here are several for you.

(Revelation 5:8) You see here when you read this passage that the twenty four elders and the four living creatures have golden bowls full of incense which are “the prayers of the saints”…So here is a direct reference from scripture of the prayers of those on earth being recieved in heaven…

(Revelation 6:9) In this passge we see the souls of those who have been killed for their faith under the alter. they are aware of the tribulation on earth and cry out to God saying, "How long will it be Holy and True master, before you sit in judgement and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth? There is awareness here of the tribulation and the events unfolding on the earth.

Now, my question for you: Please show me any scripture in the "New Testament" that for one say that those who are in heaven cannot hear us, & secondly, that it is wrong to ask for the prayers of the saints who are alive in Jesus Christ…thanks:)
Michael
 
Michael Howard:
(Revelation 5:8) You see here when you read this passage that the twenty four elders and the four living creatures have golden bowls full of incense which are “the prayers of the saints”…So here is a direct reference from scripture of the prayers of those on earth being recieved in heaven…
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It sounds to me like this creature is offering the prayers of those who are in Heaven, not those who are on Earth. Isn’t that what a saint is? Someone who’s in Heaven?
Michael Howard:
Now, my question for you: Please show me any scripture in the "New Testament" that for one say that those who are in heaven cannot hear us, & secondly, that it is wrong to ask for the prayers of the saints who are alive in Jesus Christ…thanks:)
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Never ask “why not?” when it comes to theological matters. The Bible also doesn’t say that all who enter Heaven will be put on the Atkins diet, so should I believe that?
 
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Juxtaposer:
It sounds to me like this creature is offering the prayers of those who are in Heaven, not those who are on Earth. Isn’t that what a saint is? Someone who’s in Heaven?

Never ask “why not?” when it comes to theological matters. The Bible also doesn’t say that all who enter Heaven will be put on the Atkins diet, so should I believe that?
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The first problem with what you are saying is that in a Jewish understanding of scripture “incense” (which rises upward) is commonly used to symbolize prayers rising to God, or a sweet smelling offering.

The book of Revelation was revealed St. John for the purpose of encouraging persecuted Christians on earth and to offer them hope in the midst of suffering. For John to witness the creatures recieving bowls of incense would convey to him (a Jew) holy ones in heaven were recieving their prayers in heaven!

And thank you for hammering home my next point. The scripture does not tell us everything handed down to us from the apostles as you have correctly stated "The Bible also doesn’t say that all who enter Heaven will be put on the Atkins diet, so should I believe that" . Without an authoritive church safegaurding what has been handed down to us, we can do or say anything we want with regards to scripture, apply any interpetation, for it is simply ‘static’ in itself. Only by scripture coupled with apostolic tradition can we have a full understanding of the faith as preserved in the Holy Catholic Church!😉
 
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AmandaPS:
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. To clear up some confusion on my end; You’re looking for specific Biblical passages that show that the Saints in heaven are doing more than collecting our prayers and passing them along to God? Rev 5:8, I think, is where the prayers are collected as incense and presented to God.

Is it my understanding that the verbalization of prayers is because all those in heaven can verbalize/sing the praises of Jesus? How about Rev 8:3-4, which says, “And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.”
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Its still our prayers and not theirs. All they do is present them. They are servants of the Lord. No praying just presenting. :confused:
 
There are so many reasons to REJOICE in the Communion of Saints. The Fellowship of Believers transcends earthly boundaries and even survives death. We are in the “Church Militant” here on earth, looking forward to being with the “Church Triumphant” who worship before the throne of God and of the Lamb. We pray “Keep us in everlasting fellowship with the Chruch Triumphant and let us rest together in Thy presence from our labors.”

Look at Hebrews 12:1-3 "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every hindrance and the sin that so easily entangles and run with perserverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was et before Him, endured the cross, despising the shame and sat down at the right hand of the Throne of God."

What a glorious prospect. Here on earth the Great Cloud of Witnesses surrounds us and encourages us. I love mentioning the names of the saints during the communion prayer, it recalls that Cloud of Witnesses and as we stand at the altar it looks forward to the great Wedding Feast of the Lamb in which we will share with them. The “table that stretches around the word [the altar]” also stretches through time and eternity as our Living Lord meets us and feeds us with Himself and unites us with that “Great Cloud of Witnesses” Glory be to Jesus

Peace be with you. + Your Lutheran Pastor Friend & Brother
 
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headman13:
There are so many reasons to REJOICE in the Communion of Saints. The Fellowship of Believers transcends earthly boundaries and even survives death. We are in the “Church Militant” here on earth, looking forward to being with the “Church Triumphant” who worship before the throne of God and of the Lamb. We pray “Keep us in everlasting fellowship with the Chruch Triumphant and let us rest together in Thy presence from our labors.”

Look at Hebrews 12:1-3 "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every hindrance and the sin that so easily entangles and run with perserverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was et before Him, endured the cross, despising the shame and sat down at the right hand of the Throne of God."

What a glorious prospect. Here on earth the Great Cloud of Witnesses surrounds us and encourages us. I love mentioning the names of the saints during the communion prayer, it recalls that Cloud of Witnesses and as we stand at the altar it looks forward to the great Wedding Feast of the Lamb in which we will share with them. The “table that stretches around the word [the altar]” also stretches through time and eternity as our Living Lord meets us and feeds us with Himself and unites us with that “Great Cloud of Witnesses” Glory be to Jesus

Peace be with you. + Your Lutheran Pastor Friend & Brother
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Awesome headman…simply awesome! Thank you for that wonderful word:D
 
Hi.
I posted this on another set of Christian message boards.
1 Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV)
*I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. *

"Why do you pray to Saints, since Jesus is the one mediator between God and men?"

(This is asked as though 1 Timothy 2:5 is not part of other text, as though the Bible is otherwise silent on the issue of prayer and of saints.)

I ask in reply "Who are the saints? What are they to do in regards to one another?

In the Epistle from Paul to the Ephesians, the Apostle writes to the saints in that city. Know who the saints are.

Ephesians 1:1-6 (KJV)
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Also in that same book Paul says more about “saints”.

Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The “saints” are the Body of Christ, and Jesus is the head.
You can read in the very first chapter of that Epistle to the Ephesians that Paul speaks of praying for other members of the One Body
 
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