The Complete Idiot's Guide to Religious Orders?

[Young_Thinker]

Because they also sell laser printer cartridges (cheap!) to support themselves.

All right(tempted to laugh)!

 

[CatholicFireman]

All right(tempted to laugh)!

Yeah, yeah, I know. It is funny. But true:

www.lasermonks.com

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Actually not. The Carmelites in Wyoming do not follow the Rule of St. Albert. They have no plans on adopting that rule either. They do not want to be part of the Carmelite Order. They were founded to live as the early hermits at Mt. Carmel. The Carmelite Order was foiunded BY the early hermits at Mt. Carmel and organized by St. Albert. They are two very different religious families.

The Trappists are Benedictines. They were originally a Cistercian house, with very strict Benedictine observances. They continue to be Benedictines. The Benedictines include: Benedictines, Camaldolese, Cistercians, and Trappists.

Br JR,
Thank you for this clarification.

Actually the group in Wyoming had a chance to join the Carmelite order but refused and left the original group they were with who did join us.

I and some of my fellow Carmelites have grown weary of this group being held up as the exemplar of the Carmelite Order. They are not an Order, they are not affiliated with either the O.Carm. (which they could have been) or the O.C,D,

They claim a monastic background which has nothing to do with Carmel or the mendicant movement.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

The Trappists are Benedictines. They were originally a Cistercian house, with very strict Benedictine observances. They continue to be Benedictines. The Benedictines include: Benedictines, Camaldolese, Cistercians, and Trappists.

I would add the Olivetani (Olivetans–“my” monks) and the Vallombrosiani (Vallomrosians)

 

[RobNY]

They claim a monastic background which has nothing to do with Carmel or the mendicant movement.

Brother,

This is a very helpful discussion. I admire that they are monks, but was utterly confused as to how they were Carmelites or friars because they are utterly monastic.

-Rob

 

[JReducation]

Brother,

This is a very helpful discussion. I admire that they are monks, but was utterly confused as to how they were Carmelites or friars because they are utterly monastic.

-Rob

They are not friars. This is not a negative against them. I’ve met them and they are very good men. The Carmelites are friars, both branches of the Carmelite family. They are monks. Most monks loosely form an order. I say loosely, because they are not bound as are other religious orders.

Usually an abbey is autonomous. Many abbeys are united in some kind of federation. But these federations are not the same as an order.

The term order comes from the Latin Ordo, to live a structured life governed by a rule. You don’t necessarily share the same superior, resources, and constitutions. Such is the case with monastics.

Friars are all governed by the General Chapter which is precided by the General Superior. The General Superior (under different titles) governs according to the wishes of the chapter. Therefore, even the General Superior is bound to obedience. He cannot make law. He enforces it. The brethren make the law according to the rule left to them by their spiritual father or mother. Monks are not united this way, even when they belong to the same order.

For example, the many Benedictine houses, follow the Rule of St. Benedict. But each house makes its own laws guided by the rule. In the case of friars, we do not make our own rules, except in those areas that the constitutions allow us to do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Gagh, it’s complicated!

It is complicated. Then you have to figure out who of us is ordained and who is not. In our community we don’t tell. Everyone is Brother. Only the superior of the house is Father. But that does not mean that he is ordained. Yes, we know who is ordained. It’s not like we keep it a secret from ourselves. The general public finds out when they ask for the sacraments.

The mendicant movement is one of the most fascinating movements in the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Aunt_Raven]

Speaking as one who was educated by the Dominicans, and then who spent 5 years in a Carmelite monastery 25 years ago, and who follows Carmelite spirituality in the world, I must point out that the Order of Our Lady of Mt Carmel in both of its branches (Ancient Observance, and the Discalced (reformed by St Teresa of Avila) is dedicated to contemplative prayer. Yes, there are some active Carmelite priests who serve in parishes, but Carmel is not considered to have the charism of an intellectual order like the Benedictines, Dominicans, and Jesuits.

The Order of St Benedict have produced countless notable scholars, and run many schools and some universites. I have noted that none of the postings above have referred to the scholarly Benedictines, who have a wonderfully well-rounded and integrated rule. The Benedictines are par excellence the “artistic” order dedicated to the most beautiful liturgy and liturgical music, and every Benedictine is required besides his choir and liturgical prayer duties, to do a serious amount of scholarly reading every day, and one thing you can always be sure of: however small or poor the Benedictine foundation, --there will be beautiful, reverent liturgy, and a very respectable library. Please check out the Benedictines, they were the founding agents of European civilizations after the fall of Rome --they saved and copied all the books centuries and educated people in the middle ages long before the mendicant orders were called into being by Divine Providence.

I agree with several other respondents above–The Jesuits are currently “less Obedient” to the Pope (a specific vow of theirs) than their founder intended–. There are still members of the order who quietly endorse (condemned) “Liberation Theology.” No matter how intellectual they are, this is less important that being HOLY and humble, which is expressed by obedience to the spirit as well as the letter of their Rule. I think they are currently undergoing the turmoil of a reformation to get back to their original charism–don’t get me wrong, there are many good and holy SJ’s --but right now I wouldn’t direct a potential vocation to them until they elect a superior General who exemplifies true Ignatian obedience to the Pope, not just lip service. The Benedictines, Dominicans, and Carmelites are all far more solid in their theology and obedience, and I would encourage you to read biographies of many different saints of EACH these orders to see which ones you feel most drawn to.

Remember that secular (diocesian) priests vow chastity and obedience to their Diocesian Bishop–but unlike members of religious Orders, they do not take a vow of poverty–their salary and their “spare” time is their own (though being pastor of a parish priest will consume most time and energy) in which to do research and write books; and have hobbies like fishing and visiting art galleries and concerts, or painting, or stamp collecting or traveling wherever you like on vacation. . . . this because a diocesian priest is not committed to community life. Only the bishop will choose which of his priests may be sent off for additional training in Rome, or stationed to teach in a university or seminary in his diocese. Otherwise, “parish priest”, alternating sometimes with stints as a missionary, or as a hospital chaplain, is the usual career track.

I know many secular priests who, in their personal pilgrimage of holiness, are members/affiliates of the third orders of Mt Carmel, St Francis, St Dominic, or St Benedict. (these last are called “oblates” instead of “3rd order”) —yes, you must Look up “Third order.” You can Google the online Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition–its ageless and endlessly educational) to get potted summaries of the charism and history of each order, as well as biographies of their founders. It will save you a lot of time.

Bottom line: while you’re investigating the charism and rule of the Domincans and Carmelites, don’t omit to look at the well-rounded, scholarly, Benedictines. You have several years to look at the different orders, read their rule, and see how the charism of each order works in biographies of their saints, who will be your “family”, if you are called to belong to a religious order. Most importantly, pray every day to the Holy Spirit to guide you in this discernment; have votive Masses of the Holy Spirit offered for the intention of discerning where your vocation lies. You will finally know by a feeling of “being at home” and a deep feeling of peace when you make the choice God intends for you.

 

[JReducation]

The Order of St Benedict have produced countless notable scholars, and run many schools and some universites. I have noted that none of the postings above have referred to the scholarly Benedictines, who have a wonderfully well-rounded and integrated rule. The Benedictines are par excellence the “artistic” order dedicated to the most beautiful liturgy and liturgical music, and every Benedictine is required besides his choir and liturgical prayer duties, to do a serious amount of scholarly reading every day, and one thing you can always be sure of: however small or poor the Benedictine foundation, --there will be beautiful, reverent liturgy, and a very respectable library. Please check out the Benedictines, they were the founding agents of European civilizations after the fall of Rome --they saved and copied all the books centuries and educated people in the middle ages long before the mendicant orders were called into being by Divine Providence.

I agree with several other respondents above–The Jesuits are currently “less Obedient” to the Pope (a specific vow of theirs) than their founder intended–. There are still members of the order who quietly endorse (condemned) “Liberation Theology.” No matter how intellectual they are, this is less important that being HOLY and humble, which is expressed by obedience to the spirit as well as the letter of their Rule. I think they are currently undergoing the turmoil of a reformation to get back to their original charism–don’t get me wrong, there are many good and holy SJ’s --but right now I wouldn’t direct a potential vocation to them until they elect a superior General who exemplifies true Ignatian obedience to the Pope, not just lip service. The Benedictines, Dominicans, and Carmelites are all far more solid in their theology and obedience, and I would encourage you to read biographies of many different saints of EACH these orders to see which ones you feel most drawn to.

Remember that secular (diocesian) priests vow chastity and obedience to their Diocesian Bishop–but unlike members of religious Orders, they do not take a vow of poverty–their salary and their “spare” time is their own (though being pastor of a parish priest will consume most time and energy) in which to do research and write books; and have hobbies like fishing and visiting art galleries and concerts, or painting, or stamp collecting or traveling wherever you like on vacation. . . . this because a diocesian priest is not committed to community life. Only the bishop will choose which of his priests may be sent off for additional training in Rome, or stationed to teach in a university or seminary in his diocese. Otherwise, “parish priest”, alternating sometimes with stints as a missionary, or as a hospital chaplain, is the usual career track.

What you have written about Benedictine scholarship is very good and true. I would like to add some clarifications.

1. Third Orders are not the same. The Secular Franciscan Order is not an association. It is the only canonically erected free-standing secular order in the Church with it’s own Superior General, General Council, it’s own rule written by St. Francis just for them. They have nothing to do with the friars, nuns or sisters. Francis wrote rules for each of these orders. Each has autonomy. The same canon laws that apply to the friars, nuns and sisters apply to the Secular Franciscans. The difference is in the rule itself. We (friars) may not interfere or exert any authority over them. Their religious profession is a public liturgical act received by the Church and their own Minister Provincial in the name of the Minister General. Their Minsiter General is the canonical successor of our Holy Father Francis. Any secular cleric who joins them is bound to live by the Rule of St. Francis for the Brothers of Penance.
2. Secular deacons, priests and bishops do not make vows of obedience and chastity. They make a promise of obedience to the local bishop. This promise gives the bishop authority over them ONLY in pastoral matters. The bishop may not interfere in their personal life, spiritual life or any of their activities and affairs outside of the work that they do for him. They make a promise of celibacy, not chastity. There is an overlap between the two, but they are different. They promise not to marry. That’s it. We make a vow, not a promise. We not only remain unwed, but we replace the biological family with the religious family. The vow of chastity is a commitment to give back to God the gift of manhood, fatherhood and marriage and at the same time it is a binding covenant between the individual religious and his community, wherein he becomes morally, materially, spiritually, and emotionally responsbile for his brothers and accountable to them, just as spouses are related to each other.
3. The Society of Jesus makes a vow to go where the Holy Father sends them. It is not true that they make a vow to obey the Holy Father. It is a vow of mission, not submission. They are bound to obey their Superior General that way.

To the best of my knowledge, the only religious order that makes a vow of obedience to the pope is the Franciscan Order. In the rite of profession and in the rule the pope is explicitly mentioned when vowing obedience. The hierarcy goes (from top to bottom) to obey the Holy Gospel, Our Holy Father Francis, the Rule of the Friars Minor and the Lord Pope without questining, in total silence, and without desiring for anything else.

We have to be careful to quote rules and rites of profession correctly. That can get us into trouble. I have no reservations in directing a man to the Society of Jesus. It is not for me to decide where Christ calls someone. It is for me to show them how to get to where Christ calls.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Aunt_Raven]

Dear Bro JR,

Thanks for clarifying. I stand very much corrected; your reply is precise and educational. I did not know the distinction of the promise of celebacy and the vow of chastity.

Unfortunately my contact with three communities of Jesuits in three different countries (UK, El Salvador, and USA) make me wary of encouraging a potential vocation to the Jesuits AT THIS TIME. But if God is raising up chosen young vocations to the Jesuits to help them through their present challenges, --those men will by the guidance of the Holy Spirit discern it for sure despite the cautions of people like me.

 

[The_Scott]

Again, thank you all for your responses! It had educated me greatly in the matter.

Just out of curiosity, what are your personal opinions about Opus Dei? (I know I know…Dan Brown’s portrayal…ugh )

 

[CatholicFireman]

Again, thank you all for your responses! It had educated me greatly in the matter.

Any decision (or leanings) on an order?

 

[Joe_5859]

Again, thank you all for your responses! It had educated me greatly in the matter.

Just out of curiosity, what are your personal opinions about Opus Dei? (I know I know…Dan Brown’s portrayal…ugh )

Opus Dei is a great group. I know some great people involved with them. Read Scott Hahn’s Ordinary Work, Extraordinary Grace for a nice antidote to Brown’s smear.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I met a couple priests from Opus Dei and they are absolutely wonderful servants of God. Holy, holy men. And I’ve heard from many other Catholics, all of which have had wonderful experiences with them. I even encountered a thread here on CAF started by someone who was very anti-Opus Dei, and over the course of the thread, he researched them more carefully and met several of them, and decided that he had been completely wrong. He retracted all his negative comments.

 

[JReducation]

I met a couple priests from Opus Dei and they are absolutely wonderful servants of God. Holy, holy men. And I’ve heard from many other Catholics, all of which have had wonderful experiences with them. I even encountered a thread here on CAF started by someone who was very anti-Opus Dei, and over the course of the thread, he researched them more carefully and met several of them, and decided that he had been completely wrong. He retracted all his negative comments.

Opus Dei is an awesome association. Almost as cute and adorable as the Franciscan Brothers of Life

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[The_Scott]

Any decision (or leanings) on an order?

The Dominicans.
For one, I like their habit.

That reminds me, I have another quick question. I’ve searched around and haven’t really gotten a good answer, but I may have the gist of it.

What exactly is a friar? Are they simply a sort of “mix” between priest and monk; a priest who lives aesthetically?

Thanks!

 

[JReducation]

The Dominicans.
For one, I like their habit.

That reminds me, I have another quick question. I’ve searched around and haven’t really gotten a good answer, but I may have the gist of it.

What exactly is a friar? Are they simply a sort of “mix” between priest and monk; a priest who lives aesthetically?

Thanks!

Bold is mine.

Answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Friar comes from the Latin word, Frater (Brother). A friar is a religious who is a member of a brotherhood such as the Franciscans, Augustinians, and Carmelites. A friar is first and foremost a religious brother. In an order of brothers the life centers around the Liturgy of the Hours, Eucharist, silence, Lectio Divina, solitude, and community living. All ministry is subordinate to community life. The Dominicans are an order of brothers with a very specific ministry, to preach and teach. Other friars do not have a specific ministry. Though Franciscans were to live and work among the poor, any kind of work. Carmelites were to be contemplatives in the world.

As it happened, these brotherhoods attracted the attention of priests who were not already consecrated religious and some who were, but wanted to transfer. Many joined them. Thus you have priests who are brothers. They are brothers by virtue of their profession of vows into a brotherhood. The orders of friars do not need priests to exist. But we have priests. Some have more and some have less. What I mean is that the number of men ordained to the priesthood is determined by the superior and the brothers. You don’t decide this. The superior calls you forth to Holy Orders. This is usually determined at the time of entrance, but the superior can change his mind later. If he does, you’re in for life and do not get ordained.

You do not become a Dominican to be a priest. You become a Dominican to be a son of St. Dominic and to preach the Gospel as he preached it, living in community, in poverty and in obedience to the Prior. Holy Orders is an accident to orders of friars, not essential. Their lives would be no different without priests, except for the inconvenience of having to attend mass at the local parish instead of in their chapel.

When you meet a Dominican, Franciscan, or Carmelite who is ALSO a priest, he is still a brother. His primary vocation is to live the life of his brotherhood according to the vision and mission of the founder. That’s why there are no such creatures as Franciscan Fathers, Dominican Fathers or Carmelite Fathers. They are friars or brothers. This Fathers business is an incorrect label given to us by the laity. We do not refer to ourselves as such. In my own community we have translated the word friar to Brother, to avoid the confusion between friar and father.

The Dominicans and Carmelites have more ordained friars than non-ordained. This is not always the case with the Franciscans. We have a surplus of ordained men. Therefore, younger communities are not ordaining anyone or ordaining only as many men as they need for their internal use. In my own house we have one priest who works as the maintenance man at a school. He provides income for the rest of the brothers who work in pregnancy centers and among the poor who cannot support us. But he is a friar.

Friars were originallly brothers who lived in community, bound by vows and supported themselves by working. When the work did not yield enough income, they begged. They were often referred to as mendicants, which comes from the Spanish word “mendigo”. Mendigo means begger.

St. Francis of Assisi and St. Dominic conceived the first communities of friars or brothers who were not monks, but followed the monastic traditions outside of the monastery. Dominic founded his order in 1208 (I believe) and Francis in 1209. But Francis was allowed to use the rule of life that he had written for his brothers, because Pope Innocent III acknowledged that the rule had been revealed by Christ himself and could not be refuted. Dominic was not allowed his own rule and was told to adopt the Augustinian rule so that it could be lived outside of the monastery by these itinerant brother preachers.

This is an aside to your question, but it’s interesting because Dominic first founded his nuns, then the friars. In those days that was not the usual. Later it would be more common.

Does this help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Lief_Erikson]

So a friar is an ordained brother, correct?

 

[Young_Thinker]

So a friar is an ordained brother, correct?

No, a friar is any man who belongs to a mendicant order, whether he be ordained or not.

 

[CatholicFireman]

The Dominicans.
For one, I like their habit.

That reminds me, I have another quick question. I’ve searched around and haven’t really gotten a good answer, but I may have the gist of it.

What exactly is a friar? Are they simply a sort of “mix” between priest and monk; a priest who lives aesthetically?

Thanks!

If you are ever in D.C. you might want to visit the Dominican House of Studies:

dhs.edu/aboutus.aspx