The Concept of a Coming Messiah

[Ben_Masada]

As a BTW, here is Jobs’ belief in his Redeemer *and *

 

[Ben_Masada]

So, he had no sign from God of his role? Moses did wonders. What did this cat do?

Oh! Miracles! I should have suspected that you were one of those who bet your life on miracles. If you pick up a book of miracles performed about 50 or 60 years ago, will you believe them? Probably you will if this is what defines what you live for.

When the gospels were written, more than 50 years had gone by from the time all the miracles peformed by Jesus were being reported. I don’t waste my time to refute them because miracles are not what define my pursuit of the truth.

It took many years from the time of Moses until his miracles were reported. If he performed them or not, I don’t care. If miracles are so important to you, you should be warned that false prophets and the Antichrist will appear by way of miracles; so much so that even the elect could be misled.

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

Oh! Miracles! I should have suspected that you were one of those who bet your life on miracles. If you pick up a book of miracles performed about 50 or 60 years ago, will you believe them? Probably you will if this is what defines what you live for.

When the gospels were written, more than 50 years had gone by from the time all the miracles peformed by Jesus were being reported. I don’t waste my time to refute them because miracles are not what define my pursuit of the truth.

It took many years from the time of Moses until his miracles were reported. If he performed them or not, I don’t care. If miracles are so important to you, you should be warned that false prophets and the Antichrist will appear by way of miracles; so much so that even the elect could be misled.

Ben:

Oh, no, I do not need any miracles for my faith. None. However, if you say to me that a man has come in the name of God to fulfill biblical prophacy, I am going to need more than a few references.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Oh, no, I do not need any miracles for my faith. None. However, if you say to me that a man has come in the name of God to fulfill biblical prophacy, I am going to need more than a few references.

And those few references have to be miracles? To me, I need only to test him in the light of Isaiah 8:20. “To the Law and the Testimony; if he does not speak according to this pathern, it’s because there is no light in him.” Besides, I do not understand why we are having this discussion because he didn’t come with a message for you but for me. Since he was Jewish and he spoke according to Isaiah 8:20, it was enough.

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

And those few references have to be miracles? To me, I need only to test him in the light of Isaiah 8:20. “To the Law and the Testimony; if he does not speak according to this pathern, it’s because there is no light in him.” Besides, I do not understand why we are having this discussion because he didn’t come with a message for you but for me. Since he was Jewish and he spoke according to Isaiah 8:20, it was enough.

Ben:

If you are right, there is no reason for me to think that Jesus is returning. If I am right, you need to look long and hard at Christianity.

More importantly to the modern times, however, is that your position means that Israel of today is the same as Israel of Biblical times. It is not a secular state and is ordained by God. If I am correct, Israel is a secular state and should act accordingly.

 

[Ben_Masada]

If you are right, there is no reason for me to think that Jesus is returning. If I am right, you need to look long and hard at Christianity.

More importantly to the modern times, however, is that your position means that Israel of today is the same as Israel of Biblical times. It is not a secular state and is ordained by God. If I am correct, Israel is a secular state and should act accordingly.

Oh Ralphinal, you guys like to be so romantic when comparing modern Israel with ancient Israel. Does it surprise you to hear from me that for many times ancient Israel was in a worse condition than modern Israel? That many times ancient Israel was more dangerous than modern Israel? And I mean internal condition. Crimes among citizens. Much less order. Do you know why many of us look at modern Israel with a negative attitude vis-a-vis ancient Israel? Because of romantic nostalgia. That’s all.

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

Oh Ralphinal, you guys like to be so romantic when comparing modern Israel with ancient Israel. Does it surprise you to hear from me that for many times ancient Israel was in a worse condition than modern Israel? That many times ancient Israel was more dangerous than modern Israel? And I mean internal condition. Crimes among citizens. Much less order. Do you know why many of us look at modern Israel with a negative attitude vis-a-vis ancient Israel? Because of romantic nostalgia. That’s all.

Ben:

Oh, I am not surprised at all. In fact, I would be shocked if it was the other way around.

Let me ask this: are you so sure of your position that you think that Modern Israel should dismantle her armys and trust God alone for her safety?

 

[Lev23]

The Concept of a Coming Messiah

The concept of first or second coming, or third for that matter is related to the People of Israel as they return to the Land of Israel. The first coming was when
the People left the life of captivity in Egypt and returned to Canaan with Moses
to build the First Commonwealth.

When Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, destroyed the first Temple built by Solomon, the Jews were taken into exile for 70 years. Jews then, would speak of the second coming until it happened under Ezra and Nehemiah, when they succeeded to rebuild the Second Temple and therefore, the Second Commonwealth.

Now, when the Romans destroyed the Second Temple, the Jews were expelled into an almost two thousand years exile. As that was over, and having raised our Third Commonwhealth, this has been our third coming back. The Temple will soon be rebuilt. God willing!

This concept of “coming” is of the Paople, or of a remnant of the People, but as a People, not the individual. The individual once dead, he will never return. (Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; Psalm 88:6; Prov. 2:19)

Jesus’ second coming has no grounds to stand but on faith only. If you are ready to believe blindly, go ahead, but anxiety as a result of empty hopes will strike with time. When I finally understood this concept in terms of the collective rather then the individual, the pain of unfulfilled expectations was gone.

Ben:

**Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. **

Again, Ben, the reality is, that the Spring Festivals of Passover, First Fruits, and Shavout have been perfectly fulfilled in the first advent of Yeshua as Messiah ben Joseph. The Fall Festivals of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles will be fulfilled in his second advent as Messiah ben David.

I can’t even give you a “nice try” cookie for this stuff.

 

[Valke2]

Oh, I am not surprised at all. In fact, I would be shocked if it was the other way around.

Let me ask this: are you so sure of your position that you think that Modern Israel should dismantle her armys and trust God alone for her safety?

Trust in God. Verify with bullets.

 

[Valke2]

**Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. **

Again, Ben, the reality is, that the Spring Festivals of Passover, First Fruits, and Shavout have been perfectly fulfilled in the first advent of Yeshua as Messiah ben Joseph. The Fall Festivals of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles will be fulfilled in his second advent as Messiah ben David.

I can’t even give you a “nice try” cookie for this stuff.

How can one fullfill a festival. Do you mean this in the sense that once Jesus came the feast of Passover was no longer necessary?

 

[ralphinal]

Trust in God. Verify with bullets.

LOL. I gots no issue with that one.

Valke, if memory serves, you are not of the Zionist camp. What do you make of the idea that Herlz had authority from God and is a sort of Messiah?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

 

[Ben_Masada]

If you are right, there is no reason for me to think that Jesus is returning. If I am right, you need to look long and hard at Christianity.
.

Are you ready to wait for that day when we will verify who was right? Not very intelligent. You have been waiting for two thousand years. Is it not enough to figure?

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Oh, I am not surprised at all. In fact, I would be shocked if it was the other way around.

Let me ask this: are you so sure of your position that you think that Modern Israel should dismantle her armys and trust God alone for her safety?

Let me answer your question with another. Do you have any idea why God granted us a mind with? To think and to provide ourselves enough emancipation to live without having to be forever cuddled and being taken care of. That’s part of the first commandment given still in the “Garden of Eden:” To grow and multiply.

Now, to answer your question with an answer, no, I am of the opinion that Modern Israel should use more of our Jewish mind and develop it in the sense of getting more and more
recourses for our survival. That’s in other words, a fulfilment of the commandment to grow.

Ben:

 

[Thing]

Ben Masada:

Thing:

As a BTW, here is Jobs’ belief in his Redeemer and in the ressurrection of his own selfsame flesh from the dead;

Thing, do you believe that there are contradictions in the Tanach? I don’t. So, why would there be contradictions within the same book of Job after all those quotations against coming back to life? Obviously, they are not contradictions, if we can free ourselves from the letter.

Ben Masada:

“For I know that my Redeemer liveth,…” - Job

My Redeemer here is the Holy One of Israel Himself according to Isaiah 41;14.

21 Woe to you that rue wise in your own eyes, and prudent in your own conceits. 22 Woe to you that are mighty to drink wine, and stout men at drunkenness. 23 That justify the wicked for gifts, and take away the justice of the just from him. 24 Therefore as the tongue of the fire devoureth the stubble, and the heat of the dame consumeth it: so shall their root be as ashes, and their bud shall go up as dust: for they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and have blasphemed the word of the Holy One of Israel. 25 Therefore is the wrath of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched out his hand upon them, and struck them: and the mountains were troubled, and their carcasses became as dung in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

15… O Lord, my helper, and my redeemer.
Ben Masada:

"…and in the last day I shall rise out of the earth." - Job

In the last day of his illness, and rise out of the earth, it’s because he would spend most his time lying down on earth scratching his wounds with pieces of broken clay.

Job did not say ‘when I am better I will get up’, or ‘after the last day of my illness I will stand up’.
What Job actually said was ‘in the last day’ not his last day of illness, and ‘I shall rise out of the earth’, Job would need to be in the earth to rise out of the earth.
Do you rise out of the earth every morning?
Ben Masada:

“And I shall be clothed again with my skin,” - Job

This is restoration to his original skin when he was healthy.

His body will be ressurrected…
Ben Masada:

"…and in my flesh I will see my God. " - Job

In my flesh means still in life, I’ll see my God means to be restored to his prior condition of life. And that’s what happened. Job did not die of his illness but was restored to even a better life than his previous one.

Job will see God with the eyes of his own ressurrected body, and not a different body.

“in my flesh” does not mean ''still in life. It means “in my flesh”.

My sores are putrified and corrupted, because of my foolishness. 7 I am become miserable, and am bowed down even to the end: I walked sorrowful all the day long. 8 For my loins are filled with illusions; and there is no health** in my flesh**. 9 I am afflicted and humbled exceedingly: I roared with the groaning of my heart. 10 Lord, all my desire is before thee, and my groaning is not hidden from thee.

“I will see my God” means ‘I will see my God’, not ‘I will be restored to my prior condition of life’
Ben Masada:

“Whom I myself shall see, and my eyes shall behold, and not another: this my hope is laid up in my bosom.” - Job

All expressions above mean personal certainty that it would happen in his own lifetime, and that he would witness, and not be told by others. And “hope laid up in my bosom” means faith that he was about to be restored, as he was indeed. Therefore, there is no contradiction. The Tanach is vindicated in its message against resurrection.

Job himself will see God. Job will see God with Jobs eyes. Not the eyes of a reincarnated body of someone else or anything like that. Jobs same body will be ressurrected to life and Job will behold God with Jobs own eyes. This is Jobs hope laid up in his bosem.

Job says ‘and in my flesh I will see my God’.
Ben Masada says nobody can see God. But Job said he will see God.
You must rewrite the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.

26 And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God. 27 Whom I myself shall see, and my eyes shall behold, and not another: this my hope is laid up in my bosom.

Your explanation that Job was talking about the return of his health makes no sense, as the “…and not another” then has no meaning, - in your interpretation.

Jobs’ statement that he would rise out of the earth in his own body, and his own eyes would behold God, and not anothers, only makes sense if Job is speaking about the ressurrection of his own selfsame body, and not the idea of being ressurrected in a different body, somehow not his own.

 

[Valke2]

LOL. I gots no issue with that one.

Valke, if memory serves, you are not of the Zionist camp. What do you make of the idea that Herlz had authority from God and is a sort of Messiah?

Well, first I am a zionist. I support Israel and its right to exist.

I never thought of Herzl as a Messiah. I’m not sure if he was even particurlarly religious. He certainly never claimed that he was a prophet which God had spoken to.

In short, I have a long list of arguments for supporting Israel’s existence and Herzl being a Mnessiah isn’t on it.

At the same time, this doesn’t mean that Herzl wasn’t doing God’s work.

 

[ralphinal]

Are you ready to wait for that day when we will verify who was right? Not very intelligent. You have been waiting for two thousand years. Is it not enough to figure?

Ben:

And Jews have waited nearly the same amount of time to rebuild the Temple…

 

[ralphinal]

Let me answer your question with another. Do you have any idea why God granted us a mind with? To think and to provide ourselves enough emancipation to live without having to be forever cuddled and being taken care of. That’s part of the first commandment given still in the “Garden of Eden:” To grow and multiply.

Now, to answer your question with an answer, no, I am of the opinion that Modern Israel should use more of our Jewish mind and develop it in the sense of getting more and more
recourses for our survival. That’s in other words, a fulfilment of the commandment to grow.

Ben:

So, Trust God, no
Trust ourselves, yes

 

[ralphinal]

Well, first I am a zionist. I support Israel and its right to exist.

I never thought of Herzl as a Messiah. I’m not sure if he was even particurlarly religious. He certainly never claimed that he was a prophet which God had spoken to.

In short, I have a long list of arguments for supporting Israel’s existence and Herzl being a Mnessiah isn’t on it.

At the same time, this doesn’t mean that Herzl wasn’t doing God’s work.

I support Israel, and I think that it has a right to exist. I do not see it as the promised nation of the Bible.

Israel, in my mind, is a state formed from a reaction to an event where men decided that it was needed again. Yes, it was promised to Israel and his children for ever, but that is only a small reason why I think it should exist.

I always thought that a Zionist held that position strictly on religious grounds?

 

[scooter469]

This thread is going to be interesting. Thanks