The concept of Hell in modern Christianity

[stealthy1]

Okay, I just got to thinking (after having seen a few of these threads in this sub-forum), the “umbrella” Protestant considers the five solas, of which one is by grace only.

Please bear with my logic as I try to understand this.

So…from what I’ve read in Wikipedia (not the best source, I know), then by the Protestant logic salvation through God’s grace alone is the only requirement to gain entrance into Heaven.

Now knowing that for Protestants Purgatory does not exist, then there really is only Heaven and Hell.

So…logically for Protestants, there should be no concept of Hell or rather it is more like a loose end. If my logic isn’t incorrect and that the Protestant concept is that every Christian who believes in God’s grace ultimately gets His grace and regardless of how much sin one commits, which then results in entrance to Heaven, then that must mean that nobody who believes in Protestantism will ever go to Hell.

So…in this regard, my logic actually confirms what I’ve observed, very rarely do I hear Protestants talk about Hell or even sin. I understand that any sins committed are admitted to God through prayer, but my question is where does one draw the line…my best example is that if a man is a lifelong perjurer (let’s say he’s lying about many things, but most of all breaking one of the Ten Commandments that would validate this act as a mortal sin under Catholic teaching) but at his deathbed he asks God for help. So…where does this man go? Under Catholic teaching, he is still in a state of mortal sin. Under Protestant teaching, the fact that he is asking God would assert that he believes in God and wouldn’t that mean he’ll receive free grace under sola gratia?

I’m confused…

I’m sure I don’t know the full story, so I am looking for some insight on this.

Thanks.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Okay, I just got to thinking (after having seen a few of these threads in this sub-forum), the “umbrella” Protestant considers the five solas, of which one is by grace only.

Please bear with my logic as I try to understand this.

So…from what I’ve read in Wikipedia (not the best source, I know), then by the Protestant logic salvation through God’s grace alone is the only requirement to gain entrance into Heaven.

Now knowing that for Protestants Purgatory does not exist, then there really is only Heaven and Hell.

So…logically for Protestants, there should be no concept of Hell or rather it is more like a loose end. If my logic isn’t incorrect and that the Protestant concept is that every Christian who believes in God’s grace ultimately gets His grace and regardless of how much sin one commits, which then results in entrance to Heaven, then that must mean that nobody who believes in Protestantism will ever go to Hell.

So…in this regard, my logic actually confirms what I’ve observed, very rarely do I hear Protestants talk about Hell or even sin. I understand that any sins committed are admitted to God through prayer, but my question is where does one draw the line…my best example is that if a man is a lifelong perjurer (let’s say he’s lying about many things, but most of all breaking one of the Ten Commandments that would validate this act as a mortal sin under Catholic teaching) but at his deathbed he asks God for help. So…where does this man go? Under Catholic teaching, he is still in a state of mortal sin. Under Protestant teaching, the fact that he is asking God would assert that he believes in God and wouldn’t that mean he’ll receive free grace under sola gratia?

I’m confused…

I’m sure I don’t know the full story, so I am looking for some insight on this.

Thanks.

There’s a difference between Protestant teaching and what really happens. Just because they teach something doesn’t make it absolutely correct. For a start, they’re divided. My old Protestant pastor once sarcastically remarked, “When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn’t agree how far to spit”.

Generally they think anyone who believes in Christ and does not have any major ***unconfessed ***sins goes straight to heaven. This is regardless of whether he might have been a chronic liar, perjurer, wife beater, torturer, serial adulterer, murderer, bad tempered vindictive mongrel or anything else. Not an ounce of effort is required by the person in question. The thief on the cross is probably their final argument for this stance.

By confession, they mean confessing to God directly, in private prayer.

In reality, I think they go to Purgatory at the very least, regardless of what they might think. We’re still judged for what we do, but have passed from death to life. I think we still see our life played out in front of us, warts and all, good or bad. However that doesn’t mean all our character defects are also fixed with a magic wand, and we don’t have to do anything. If we don’t do something about them now, we’ll have to do something later, or have them purified before we get into heaven, which is literal perfection.

I suppose I continue to use my own father as the example. In my old pastor’s words, he could be summed up as a cruel, stupid, bad-tempered, vindictive man. But had he made a death bed confession, by Protestant theology, he’d have gone straight to heaven. I don’t believe that for a minute. He’d have had a life time of bad tempered indulgence to fix up before he would be allowed to start throwing tantrums in heaven and make everybody else’s life a misery. Christ told the parable about the wedding guest who wasn’t dressed for the wedding and was thrown out into the darkness. He may have been invited, but he wasn’t appropriately geared up for the occasion.

I think they’re mistaken. In fact, my old Protestant pastor, whom I found by experience to be correct in just about everything else he said, once commented to me that he wondered if Protestants get to heaven. I’ve got personal reasons to believe that the whole lot of them are in Purgatory, probably in the very upper, near heavenly regions. They didn’t partake of Christ’s body and blood in the full sense, are alienated from and reject the Petrine office set up by Christ himself as presented in the Gospels they profess to follow, and quite often tell blatant, unconfessed lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church. Nor do they confess their sins to a priest, as empowered by Christ’s promise through the apostles - “If you forgive another’s sins, they are forgiven. If not … they are retained.”

I suspect there is a major difference between what they believe about immediate entrance to heaven, and what really happens after death.

In short they believe in immediate entry on account of Christ’s sacrifice if one makes even a last minute deathbed confession. This conflicts with their own teaching about living holy lives. Why bother if grace is so cheap?

 

[latin_rite]

“The concept of Hell in modern Christianity”?
I would think according to many new agers. Hell is for Christians who follow Jesus and not their messiah Oprah or tom cruise.

 

[zielwolf]

Okay, I just got to thinking (after having seen a few of these threads in this sub-forum), the “umbrella” Protestant considers the five solas, of which one is by grace only.

Please bear with my logic as I try to understand this.

So…from what I’ve read in Wikipedia (not the best source, I know), then by the Protestant logic salvation through God’s grace alone is the only requirement to gain entrance into Heaven.

Now knowing that for Protestants Purgatory does not exist, then there really is only Heaven and Hell.

So…logically for Protestants, there should be no concept of Hell or rather it is more like a loose end. If my logic isn’t incorrect and that the Protestant concept is that every Christian who believes in God’s grace ultimately gets His grace and regardless of how much sin one commits, which then results in entrance to Heaven, then that must mean that nobody who believes in Protestantism will ever go to Hell.

So…in this regard, my logic actually confirms what I’ve observed, very rarely do I hear Protestants talk about Hell or even sin. I understand that any sins committed are admitted to God through prayer, but my question is where does one draw the line…my best example is that if a man is a lifelong perjurer (let’s say he’s lying about many things, but most of all breaking one of the Ten Commandments that would validate this act as a mortal sin under Catholic teaching) but at his deathbed he asks God for help. So…where does this man go? Under Catholic teaching, he is still in a state of mortal sin. Under Protestant teaching, the fact that he is asking God would assert that he believes in God and wouldn’t that mean he’ll receive free grace under sola gratia?

I’m confused…

I’m sure I don’t know the full story, so I am looking for some insight on this.

Thanks.

The reason you don’t have the full story is because no one does. No one has the right to say “you are going to hell”, except God. In fact the Bible explicitly states this - not only in the many admonitions that warn us over and over again NOT to judge others, but here:

But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)“or 'Who will descend into the deep?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [Romans 10:6-9]

It is useless for us to try and figure out who’s going to heaven or hell and worse, it is blasphemy for us to say anyone is going to hell. It’s not up to us to judge: it’s up to God.

It seems like you are goading by saying that Protestants think they can sin as much as they want and still be saved. It’s not so. Sin is an active concept in Protestantism and if you persist in sin then your faith is a dead faith as far as the Protestant church is concerned.

However, it’s true that Protestants don’t see works as adding anything to salvation. Just like the Eucharist is symbolic of the Body of the Lord, so are works symbolic of one’s faith. A true believer should be doing lots of good works because they have already been saved and are going straight to heaven (there being no Purgatory in the Protestant church).

The problem arises when you make works less than necessary, they pretty much become optional as well. Too many Protestants (but Catholics just as muchl!) just pay empty lip-service to their faith. “Pastor you really blessed me with that sermon. Sinners would be moved. But as I have already been saved, I don’t need to worry about all this.”

As long as I’m “good” and don’t do bad things and believe in Jesus I will be saved. But this is hardly the radical commission given by Jesus to His disciples. Christ told us to do all kinds of awful things, like for example sell everything we have and go out and preach the gospel in the cities and towns of our nations. I bet most of us would never ever in our wildest dreams actually think of doing such things in order to reach the Kingdom of Heaven. And on that basis you could argue that most of us are in fact probably going straight to hell. Because we’re ordinary, miserable sinners.

Except for grace. God knows we are hopeless weaklings. So He gives us His grace. In the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion - in the Sacrifice of the Mass. And there is one doctrine that all Catholics and all Protestants agree on: ultimately we are all saved by grace alone, effected by faith.

Like Jesus said to the thief crucified at his side: “Today you will be with me in Paradise.”
That is grace explicit.

 

[nickybr38]

Someone brought up the story of the wedding feast and ‘all are invited but only some will stay’. But what about the story of the farmer who required help in his field. He hired some at the start of the day, some mid-day and some at the end of the day. They all received the same wage.

This too, I believe, is a story about heaven. Some come to God early in life, some mid-life and some at the end of their life but they are all being rewarded the same. NOW purgatory may exist and through this sins not previously confessed will be purged, but that’s not to say the end result isn’t heaven for those who didn’t believe.

And really, not believing in purgatory doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

I DO believe that those who seek God in the very last moments of their life will be granted grace, but only those who seek Him truly and not just out of fear of death. You know what I mean? We CANNOT know anyone’s heart, but God does… and He is loving and just so I believe if a prodigal son returns to Him, even at the very last hour, that God will not turn His child away.

 

[stealthy1]

Thanks guys, it makes more sense now.

And I apologize if I made it sound like I was being judgmental, certainly it was not my intention. I agree with you, however I will admit that in a lot of situations in my daily life I tend to be so.