The Concept of Omnipotence

[devonsams]

Hi, I’d like to know what kind of Omnipotence the Church teaches to us?

God could create a Triangle with the sum of its internal angles different of 180? God could create a Round-Square? God could make 2+2=5?

I was reading about Stephen Hawking and some of Einstein Relativity, that the laws of the universe are Imutable, which means that God couldn’t create it differently. Does it mean that if we could know all the immutable laws of the universe, God would be redundant?

Christ said that we could ask him everything that he would give us. But what if we asked that we wanted 2+2 become 5? Then he couldn’t give us that.

Thanks.

 

[davidv]

Please ponder these words for the Catholic Catechism.

268 Of all the divine attributes, only God’s omnipotence is named in the Creed: to confess this power has great bearing on our lives. We believe that his might is universal, for God who created everything also rules everything and can do everything. God’s power is loving, for he is our Father, and mysterious, for only faith can discern it when it “is made perfect in weakness”.103
"He does whatever he pleases"104
269 The Holy Scriptures repeatedly confess the universal power of God. He is called the “Mighty One of Jacob”, the “LORD of hosts”, the “strong and mighty” one. If God is almighty “in heaven and on earth”, it is because he made them.105 Nothing is impossible with God, who disposes his works according to his will.106 He is the Lord of the universe, whose order he established and which remains wholly subject to him and at his disposal. He is master of history, governing hearts and events in keeping with his will: "It is always in your power to show great strength, and who can withstand the strength of your arm?107

Notice the highlighed “anything”. The contradictions you site are not things, therefore your question if God can do them is nonsense.

 

[R_C]

God cannot do irrational things, and God has freely chosen not to force things on us (since we are given free will).

He can make everything out of nothing. Light out of darkness. He can make good things spring from evil things committed by men.

But he cannot do something bad, because bad means not good, and God is infinitely good. He cannot do something unfair, because unfairness means lack of justice, and God is infinitely just.

I think you get my point. Irrational things like the ones you mention are not “things”, rather they are “non-things”. Negative numbers should clarify the concept: are they something? Absolutely not. They define the absence of something. Can God create -5 things? Of course not, that would not be an act of creation!

It is said that Mathematics (from the Greek “knowledge”) is the “language” of God…we are blessed with being able to learn this great language, and to find that we are able to express the natural world through it. When God created the concept of the triangle, whose internal angles add up to 180 degrees, that is a perfect thought, and to change that would mean to make it less perfect. When God thought of a circle, that thought was perfect, and very good. When we express that the sum of 2 and 2 is 4, that operation is perfect - to make it 5 would be irrational and absurd.

Of course, God is not bound, by virtue of His omnipotence, to these rules.

When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” “And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.”

And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

Behold, I will make the shadow cast by the declining sun on the dial of Ahaz turn back ten steps.” So the sun turned back on the dial the ten steps by which it had declined.

I think what you are really trying to grasp is not omnipotence - the power to do everything - but the meaning of that everything…some things appear to be something, but they are actually the lack of something…

 

[bzkoss236]

God cannot create a square circle, because then it ceases to be a circle, it is simply a square. It isn’t a limitation on what God can do, but it is the fact that by making something into something it is not is in fact making that something into something else, such as making a square circle really just makes a square. God could not make 2+2=5 because that breaks logic. If God made 2+2=5 then 5 is really just what we know as 4. Granted, if God had 2 sets of 2 whole apples (4 total), he could turn it into a total of 5 whole apples by creating another apple. See where this is going?

The reason this isn’t limiting God is because the words we use to describe things are our words, and if you create something that by definition is illogical, like a square circle, it is really just something else, a square.

So, in a way, God can create a square circle, it is called a square, which is something that man can create as well (given the proper tools).

 

[arabic99]

God cannot create a square circle, because then it ceases to be a circle, it is simply a square. It isn’t a limitation on what God can do, but it is the fact that by making something into something it is not is in fact making that something into something else, such as making a square circle really just makes a square. God could not make 2+2=5 because that breaks logic. If God made 2+2=5 then 5 is really just what we know as 4. Granted, if God had 2 sets of 2 whole apples (4 total), he could turn it into a total of 5 whole apples by creating another apple. See where this is going?

The reason this isn’t limiting God is because the words we use to describe things are our words, and if you create something that by definition is illogical, like a square circle, it is really just something else, a square.

So, in a way, God can create a square circle, it is called a square, which is something that man can create as well (given the proper tools).

Well said bzkos

The concept of the Creator and the creation can be likened to a painter and the painting. Once the painting is complete, it is not there to be meddled with for it is perfect. The laws that creation is governed by are not for God to play around with. Creation is creation, and there it is forever, eternally.

God can do what He likes, but medling with His perfect creation will imply imperfections unto Him.

Just my two cents

 

[DavidFilmer]

God could change the gravitational constant of the universe, or Planck’s constant, or the Compton wavelength on a whim. He could change the universe so that you CAN win, and you CAN break even, and you CAN quit the game (in opposition to the three Laws of Thermodynamics).

God can do anything that can possibly be done (even if it far beyond our possibility, no matter how advanced we might become). But God cannot do the impossible. God cannot draw a square circle.

 

[Actaeon]

Hi, I’d like to know what kind of Omnipotence the Church teaches to us?

This could be interesting…

God could create a Triangle with the sum of its internal angles different of 180?

Omnipotence demands the power to do that which is logically possible, and not that which is definitionally impossible.

In other words, the idea of a triangle (and surely it is only an idea) is a shape possessed of three straight sides with a sum of the interior angles equal to exactly 180 degrees. That’s an element of definitional language… meaning that anything outside of that shape is defined BY HUMANS as not a triangle. (in other words, the idea and language of triangles is used by us to categorize things after they have fundamental reality… not before).

So God can create anything He wants, and we later categorize those creations (not the other way around).

God could create a Round-Square?

Same as above, God creates, and then we categorize with definitional language. God has created MANY round objects, but we CHOOSE not to call them squares because our LANGUAGE does not admit that categorization.

God could make 2+2=5?

Math, again, is an expressive language to categorize rather abstract terms. What exactly is a two? A quantity (maybe)? A scalar? A vector? What exactly is a five? We don’t know EXACTLY what these things are because, again, they are definitional… they are words that human beings have created to describe reality, not the other way around.

Incidently, when you’re not talking about linear space mathmatics, 2 + 2 can already equal 5 by some definitions of those quantities.

I was reading about Stephen Hawking and some of Einstein Relativity, that the laws of the universe are Imutable, which means that God couldn’t create it differently. Does it mean that if we could know all the immutable laws of the universe, God would be redundant?

To say that the laws of the Universe are immutable is not to say that God couldn’t change those laws, but rather that WE cannot observe a means to change those laws. God create such laws to be absolute, but that does NOT mean that He could not change them… although He does not, because presumably a massive shift in some of those laws would cause utter chaos and destroy all life as we know it (such as if gravity repelled rather than attracted)

Christ said that we could ask him everything that he would give us. But what if we asked that we wanted 2+2 become 5? Then he couldn’t give us that.

Christ also prefaced that by stating what is required in Christian life and those things essential to prayer… thus it can only be so when we are within and united to the will of God… so there’s the rub: a person who is united with the will of God will not ask for ridiculous things such as “create a definitional contradiction” or “Give me that new corvette”… in other words, we can’t take Christ’s words out of context to make an argument here.

Thanks.

 

[carn]

God could create a Triangle with the sum of its internal angles different of 180?

Of course!
Just need to change the curvature of space slightly, which can be done by simply having some mass around.

Actually whenever you draw a perfect triangle on a paper its angle sum will theoretically be slightly different from 180, because earths mass already has a slight effect.Buts its to small to ever measure it.

God could create a Round-Square?

Yes (at least with some definitions of square, e.g. all sides have equal length), but if He does it around earth, it might be unpleasant, because it might involve placing a few black holes around the square.

God could make 2+2=5?

Yes and no. He could alter all our memories, so everybody calls what is now “4” “5”. And as mathematics is only a matter of axioms, which anybody can define at will, He could simple alter some to make 2+2=5 true. (Which of course anybody else can do as well)

Regarding the common used mathematics, “2+2=5 is a true statement” does not exist.

 

[snarflemike]

Hi, I’d like to know what kind of Omnipotence the Church teaches to us?

God could create a Triangle with the sum of its internal angles different of 180? God could create a Round-Square? God could make 2+2=5?

God can do anything he chooses to do. But since God is also perfectly rational, he doesn’t want to do irrational or nonsensical things such as you mention.

I was reading about Stephen Hawking and some of Einstein Relativity, that the laws of the universe are Imutable, which means that God couldn’t create it differently. Does it mean that if we could know all the immutable laws of the universe, God would be redundant?

Stephen Hawking really doesn’t have a clue when he talks theology. As for the laws of the universe, I’ve read that the mathematics support at least 10^500 variants while remaining consistent. Compare that with some 10^80 atoms in the universe to appreciate the size of that number.

Christ said that we could ask him everything that he would give us. But what if we asked that we wanted 2+2 become 5? Then he couldn’t give us that.

Which tells us that your understanding of that verse is flawed.

 

[mgoforth]

Stephen Hawking really doesn’t have a clue when he talks theology.

+1

I once wasted an hour watching a Stephen Hawking show called “Does God Exist?”…not because I doubted His existence, I just wanted to see what he would say about it. At the end, he pretty much says “No, there’s no way God is real, because there’s no physical proof of it”. Honestly, I was shocked at the utter weakness of his “crushing blow” to religion. This guy is supposed to be the Einstein of our generation…??? Anyway, rant over.

 

[thistle]

Hi, I’d like to know what kind of Omnipotence the Church teaches to us?

God could create a Triangle with the sum of its internal angles different of 180? God could create a Round-Square? God could make 2+2=5?

I was reading about Stephen Hawking and some of Einstein Relativity, that the laws of the universe are Imutable, which means that God couldn’t create it differently. Does it mean that if we could know all the immutable laws of the universe, God would be redundant?

Christ said that we could ask him everything that he would give us. But what if we asked that we wanted 2+2 become 5? Then he couldn’t give us that.

Thanks.

Modern Catholic Dictionary:

OMNIPOTENCE. The almighty power of God. He can do whatever does not deny his nature or that is not self-contradictory. Since God is infinite in being, he must also be infinite in power. (Etym. Latin omnis, all + potentia, power: omnipotens, all-powerful.)

 

[Actaeon]

This guy is supposed to be the Einstein of our generation…??? Anyway, rant over.

If you ever watched his show in the long run, you’d see that he has absolutely no problem with bold conjecture and baseless guesses… as long as they agree with his wacky theories.

During the course of my college years, one of my phsyics professors (the dean of the Physics department), lamented Hawking’s role as the face of physics. In my humble opinion, he’s not any sort of Albert Einstein, Hans Geiger, or Richard Fienman… nowhere NEAR as brilliant as any of those… and FAR to arrogant for my liking.

Has he done great things in the world of physics? Sure… but his loony conjecture built loosely around physics is no more credible than ANY theological statement (including that of the pagans who thought that zues was coming to earth to bed human women)

 

[bzkoss236]

+1

I once wasted an hour watching a Stephen Hawking show called “Does God Exist?”…not because I doubted His existence, I just wanted to see what he would say about it. At the end, he pretty much says “No, there’s no way God is real, because there’s no physical proof of it”. Honestly, I was shocked at the utter weakness of his “crushing blow” to religion. This guy is supposed to be the Einstein of our generation…??? Anyway, rant over.

What?! There’s no physical proof of a non-physical being?! You don’t say…
sarcasm

His “proof” is no proof at all. His reasoning contradicts the scientific method. If because there is no physical proof of something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, outside the physical plane. If all of science used this reasoning, then no one would have gotten as far as they have. Why would they even have searched for the Higgs boson in the first place, or claim that they’ve found it even with a claimed 99% certainty? And even then, all they are using to prove its existence is looking at stuff it left behind after decaying, which other particles also apparently produce. Idk… I see these types of scientists hypocritical. They are willing to take a chance to believe in some theoretical particle that may never be proven, but they won’t take a chance to believe in at least a creator God. (I know not all scientists are like this, but it seems like a growing majority these days, at list with those that are more outspoken in the media).