The Confusion of Catholicism

[guanophore]

"PumpkinCookie:

Confusion reigns. Because of this, those who consider themselves Catholic and attempt to build their identities upon that idea are building on an ambiguous and shifting core. They cannot find a solid, rich, and nutrient-filled soil for them to root their egos.

The problem is, PC, that people are disconnected from the Love within. Our “core” cannot be found in a pile of words, in a book. Our “core” is found in prayer, in reflection, in meditation, in being in touch with that part of ourselves that Loves all, is One with all. What does Jesus say to those who are stubbornly clinging to all the words? He says, “be like a child”.

While I do agree that we find our own core in this way, I think both you and PC are looking in the wrong place. The Core of the faith is Christ. PC is right, that building an identity on anything except our Maker, and HIs intention for our existence creates ambiguity and a “shifting core”.

The rich, solid, and nutrient filled soil in which our egos must be rooted is found in the person of Christ. Only then can we find our own solid core within.

The rejection of the One Faith that Jesus entrusted to the church is what causes the ambiguity and shifting. Whenever we try to ground our egos in what is not a solid foundation, it creates a house made of straw.

 

[Thorolfr]

Interminably, various “views” are presented as though there is no dogma and no doctrine and anything goes! Some never learn.

St. John of the Cross (1542-1591; a doctor of the Church) states in his classic work, The Dark Night of the Soul, Book 1.Chapter 1.Section 2: “It should be known, then, that God nurtures and caresses the soul, after it has been resolutely converted to his service, like a loving mother who warms her child with the heat of her bosom, nurses it with good milk and tender food, and carries and caresses it in her arms. But as the child grows older, the mother withdraws her caresses and hides her tender love; she rubs bitter aloes on her sweet breast and sets the child down from her arms, letting it walk on its own feet so that it may put aside the habits of childhood and grow accustomed to greater and more important things. The grace of God acts just as a loving mother by re-engendering in the soul new enthusiasm and fervor in the service of God.”

stjamesschooloftheology.com/the-trinity-and-feminine-imagery/

St. John of the Cross was only a saint and a doctor of the Church, so perhaps he didn’t know proper doctrine that he should only talk about God as Father…

 

[grannymh]

What I find confusing is when people say " a real catholic"…blah blah blah

What or who is a real catholic if you please?

A real Catholic does not attack the purpose of asking forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation. A real Catholic does not downgrade the true meaning of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. A real Catholic does not offer “harmony” and “fellowship” as a substitute for doctrines he or she does not like. A real Catholic does not use “sweet sounding” words of unconditional love to draw people away from the truths of the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

A real Catholic does not attack the purpose of asking forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation. A real Catholic does not downgrade the true meaning of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. A real Catholic does not offer “harmony” and “fellowship” as a substitute for doctrines he or she does not like. A real Catholic does not use “sweet sounding” words of unconditional love to draw people away from the truths of the Catholic Church.

Don’t hold back, Granny, tell us what you really think!

 

[simpleas]

Another attack on mortal sin. Another way to downgrade the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation. That is all I will say about it, period.

The line I quoted is taken from the church newsletter we get every week, so it is taken out of context, there is much said on repentance. If I can get it online I will post it.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by guanophore

It is both. Clearly there is sin that is a blatant rebellion against God. Don’t mention this to OneSheep, but I do agree that sin occurs in unknowing /ignorance. The Greek for sin “hamartia” is the word used to describe archery target practice. So literally, sin is “missing the mark”.

I think we can all agree that sin occurs in unknowing and ignorance.Yes missing the mark, not quite able to become Christ like, because we aren’t divine.
This doesn’t mean that one person who hits the target is more catholic than one who misses the mark. We are all one body, all suffering.

Many people find peace within/without and they do not practice our faith, they have their own, why does it seem that some faiths work for others, individual I mean, that some find inner peace, God etc in another faith, when the Catholic faith is the true one way of uniting with God. People can’t be unknowing/ignorant if they have prayed researched etc and found a different path.
I always heard that people are on different paths but they all lead to God. That sounds reasonable enough to me, but I think many here would disagree.

Sorry for rambling, or derailing the thread.

 

[Aloysium]

I don’t want to argue, but to clarify a point.
There is peace to be found in Christ.
It would be an inner peace in that it transcends the chaos of our being in the world.
If you are looking for inner peace, you will not find it until you meet the reality of the Man on the cross.
You try on your own and it will always fail because the search remains centred on you.
I have found that holy people follow Christ whether they know His story or not.
All paths most assuredly do not lead to heaven.
That road is very, very hard and the gate narrow; but Christ has made it doable for all of us.
The Catholic path is the quickest, most reliable way to God.
It is the Holy Spirit whose grace directs the Church to the Truth.
The wholeness of that truth encompasses the heart, the mind and the will.
The issue is that wrong understanding may lead the person away from God.
The further we stray, the darker it grows.
Those who remain committed to knowing God will hear and follow His voice.

 

[OneSheep]

A real Catholic does not attack the purpose of asking forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation. A real Catholic does not downgrade the true meaning of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. A real Catholic does not offer “harmony” and “fellowship” as a substitute for doctrines he or she does not like. A real Catholic does not use “sweet sounding” words of unconditional love to draw people away from the truths of the Catholic Church.

Oh, Granny Dear,

“Do you realize how much you are worth in the eyes of God?” the pope asked youths in his annual message for local celebrations of World Youth Day. “Do you know that you are loved and welcomed by him unconditionally?”

Pope Francis

ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/god-wants-you-find-real-love-lifelong-love-pope-tells-youths

There goes the Holy Father again, just as his predecessor, using sweet-sounding words! Yet, like me, they do not downgrade the meaning of Real Presence, they do not deny the validity of doctrine, nor do they attack the purpose of asking forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Maybe he just sees God and purposes a little differently than you do. It’s okay, Granny, and it is not an attack from them, or from me. Fear not!

 

[grannymh]

I think we can all agree that sin occurs in unknowing and ignorance.

Pardon me. I would like to clarify that Mortal Sin does not occur in unknowing and ignorance

From the Glossary, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

MORTAL SIN: A grave infraction of the law of God that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner (sanctifying grace), constituting a turn away from God. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be present: grave matter, full knowledge of the evil of the act, and full consent of the will (1855, 1857).

 

[grannymh]

I don’t want to argue, but to clarify a point.
There is peace to be found in Christ.
It would be an inner peace in that it transcends the chaos of our being in the world.
If you are looking for inner peace, you will not find it until you meet the reality of the Man on the cross.
You try on your own and it will always fail because the search remains centred on you.
I have found that holy people follow Christ whether they know His story or not.
All paths most assuredly do not lead to heaven.
That road is very, very hard and the gate narrow; but Christ has made it doable for all of us.
The Catholic path is the quickest, most reliable way to God.
It is the Holy Spirit whose grace directs the Church to the Truth.
The wholeness of that truth encompasses the heart, the mind and the will.
The issue is that wrong understanding may lead the person away from God.
The further we stray, the darker it grows.
Those who remain committed to knowing God will hear and follow His voice.

 

[OneSheep]

I would prefer “both/and” instead of “rather than”.

"1 Peter 4:8 Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

I love “both/and”, as you must know by now.

Have I been able to shake his hand, and give him a hug? Yes.

That’s wonderful, Guanophore. Can you also shake my hand, if I were before you? Yes, Christ is very present in His Church; and He is present in you!

The Core of the faith is Christ. PC is right, that building an identity on anything except our Maker, and HIs intention for our existence creates ambiguity and a “shifting core”.

The rich, solid, and nutrient filled soil in which our egos must be rooted is found in the person of Christ. Only then can we find our own solid core within.

The rejection of the One Faith that Jesus entrusted to the church is what causes the ambiguity and shifting. Whenever we try to ground our egos in what is not a solid foundation, it creates a house made of straw.

Now you’re talking! In fact, our ego is no grounding at all!

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

It is customary in the US to shake hands as a form of greeting. It is polite, and courteous. It does not create or necessarily foster spiritual communion, and says nothing about a persons belief.

So, you would extend me the same courtesy? Remember, we both love God, and both love our Church. My hand will always be here, guanophore, offering my friendship and welcoming you.

I went and looked over the thread you started. There is nothing in it that indicates you are open to another point of view.

I looked back at the OP of that thread, and thought it was there! You are right, guanophore, it was not. When I start a new thread on the same theme, and voice my openness, will you participate? I invite you to do so. Maybe you can enlighten me on something I do not know.

People embrace what makes sense, and works for them.

Yes, I agree, and individuals use many different words to describe the faith. We Catholics are all seeking oneness with Christ.

God Bless your Sunday!

 

[OneSheep]

What I find confusing is when people say " a real catholic"…blah blah blah

What or who is a real catholic if you please?

I was reminded of this tonight :

Sin is failing to reach an ideal, rather than a rebellion against God.

Does anyone agree with this?

Do people see some sins as failing to live up to the high standard of God, or actual rebellion against God.

If it’s seen as a failing, then we need to give each other a break, we’re human, we’re all on this journey together, believer and non believer and we all can live peacefully together.

Hi Simpleas,

Concerning “real Catholicism”, I think guanophore stated this well:

guanophore:

People embrace what makes sense, and works for them.

So, some people use different words to describe their journeys.

A century ago, the church was deeply divided over Pope Pius X’s campaign against “Modernism,” which was a catchall for anything Rome deemed suspicious. When Pius died, the conclave of 1914 elected Benedict XV, who immediately issued an encyclical calling on Catholics “to appease dissension and strife” so that “no one should consider himself entitled to affix on those who merely do not agree with his ideas the stigma of disloyalty to faith.”

“There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism,” Benedict XV concluded. “It is quite enough for each one to proclaim ‘Christian is my name and Catholic my surname.’”

americamagazine.org/content/all-things/who-real-catholic

When the University of Notre Dame invited President Obama come to speak, which is a tradition of the University, about 60 out of 290 bishops protested. This may seem like division, but they were united by deeper bonds. Both the Bishops who protested and those who did not undoubtedly fulfilled Pope Benedict XV’s of “quite enough”.

However, you will find an occasional Catholic who will still “consider himself entitled to affix on those who merely do not agree with his ideas the stigma of disloyalty to faith”. These Catholics are rare, Simpleas, though in participating on the CAF one might think such is not the case. The CAF draws such people. However, they are still expressing “what works for them”, and it is charitable to hear their words in this way. They do not intend to divide the Church, nor drive people away, they are expressing what works for them, and inviting us to see our faith the way that they do.

That said, even though I am trying to be charitable, I am sure to get flak for that. Wait for others to say, Pope Benedict XV did not mean that “this” is “Catholic”!

They really are well-intended.

Oh well…

 

[o_mlly]

What happens when we apply laws of logic to the heavens? Are the heavens rationally structured?
YES

If they are then they can either be rationally structured in the same way as our world, or in in a different - perhaps higher - way, with their own logic and metaphysics?
EXPANDED

Our logical sense of reasoning is determined by our experiences in space and time. Common sense is simply the agreement about relationships of various observations of phenomena by the many.

Space: But some have now experienced the quantum scale. Observations in that framework seem to defy our present laws of logic. Given more time, our laws of logic will expand – not change – to make common sense of the observations in the quantum scale.

Time: In the framework of eternity, our laws of logic will expand – not change – to make common sense of observations in eternity. The reality of the relationships of the Persons in the Trinity is logical but our present time and space limited experiences have not allowed the expansion of our laws of logic to include this – the ultimate Phenomena.

 

[grannymh]

What happens when we apply laws of logic to the heavens? Are the heavens rationally structured?
YES

If they are then they can either be rationally structured in the same way as our world, or in in a different - perhaps higher - way, with their own logic and metaphysics?
EXPANDED

Our logical sense of reasoning is determined by our experiences in space and time. Common sense is simply the agreement about relationships of various observations of phenomena by the many.

Space: But some have now experienced the quantum scale. Observations in that framework seem to defy our present laws of logic. Given more time, our laws of logic will expand – not change – to make common sense of the observations in the quantum scale.

Time: In the framework of eternity, our laws of logic will expand – not change – to make common sense of observations in eternity. The reality of the relationships of the Persons in the Trinity is logical but our present time and space limited experiences have not allowed the expansion of our laws of logic to include this – the ultimate Phenomena.

Thank you.
What may be happening is that our laws of logic are expanding backwards in time in order to make clearer some of the things in Catholicism. Take your pick.

In our present time, we can go back to the dawn of myths and legends. It is there that a human inherent sense of the super—natural is evinced. There, I see the logic regarding the presence of the super—natural as arising from the rational natural human person in the beginning of human experience. Having a sense of the super—natural does not automatically mean that everything a human does, due to his personal subjective experience of something beyond his own human experience, is good.

What I am establishing is that human reasoning is capable of reaching beyond those normal natural subjective experiences in ancient cultures. For the purpose of this thread, ancient subjective reasoning is based on the internal human sense that there is something out there… The inherent sense of the super—natural is evinced in the medicine man and the shaman along with the Greek gods, Roman gods, Hindu gods, Baal, etc.

The ideal human mind would shift to objective reasoning-observe without prejudice-which is one of the basics of the scientific (inductive) method.

While subjective reasoning can make serious mistakes, to my knowledge, it is still proper to use it to flesh out a theory.

Considering what we know from ancient history, are there questions about the above?

 

[simpleas]

I don’t want to argue, but to clarify a point.
There is peace to be found in Christ.
It would be an inner peace in that it transcends the chaos of our being in the world.
If you are looking for inner peace, you will not find it until you meet the reality of the Man on the cross.
You try on your own and it will always fail because the search remains centred on you.
I have found that holy people follow Christ whether they know His story or not.
All paths most assuredly do not lead to heaven.
That road is very, very hard and the gate narrow; but Christ has made it doable for all of us.
The Catholic path is the quickest, most reliable way to God.
It is the Holy Spirit whose grace directs the Church to the Truth.
The wholeness of that truth encompasses the heart, the mind and the will.
The issue is that wrong understanding may lead the person away from God.
The further we stray, the darker it grows.
Those who remain committed to knowing God will hear and follow His voice.

I have found that holy people follow Christ whether they know His story or not.

Could you explain that some more. If people are not participating in the Eucharist, know nothing of mortal sin, confession etc, how are they attaining holiness?

Thanks

 

[grannymh]

Don’t hold back, Granny, tell us what you really think!

guanophore,

I try to think like the Catholic Church. I do not cherry pick.
Post 800 stands as is.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I do not question the sincerity of your faith. Like Pumpkin Cookie, who seems to be a scientific fundamentalist, your faith is clearly very strong. Many people design a religion of their own making, then cling to it because it somehow meets their needs.

Clearly with all the earnestness at your command, you must cling to the notion that a human being does not willignly and knowingly reject God. Although this seems to contradict the teaching of the Church, somehow embracing it makes you function better, just like rejecting ideas that can’t be proved by scientific inquiry makes Pc function better.

I do not think I am a scientific fundamentalist, and I’m not even sure what you mean by the term. I accept that there are true propositions that are neither verifiable nor falsifiable via the scientific method. What I don’t accept is that internally contradictory systems of propositions can be true, regardless of whether they can be tested empirically. Catholicism is one such system, in my opinion. It can’t be demonstrated to be true, and the propositions that must be held simultaneously contradict one another, are based on naked appeals to authority, or circular reasoning. I have no good reason to believe. Maybe you do, but I don’t.

 

[guanophore]

I looked back at the OP of that thread, and thought it was there! You are right, guanophore, it was not. When I start a new thread on the same theme, and voice my openness, will you participate? I invite you to do so. Maybe you can enlighten me on something I do not know.

Thank you for the invite, but it seems like an exercise in futility. I have also come to understand that you need to believe this in order to preserve and promote your spiritual progress. For that reason, it would not be appropriate to dispute it. People construct such world views to meet their own needs.

Yes, I agree, and individuals use many different words to describe the faith. We Catholics are all seeking oneness with Christ.

I wish this were true. But the polls make it clear that people prefer their own way of life, rather than a life centered around Christ. Pumpkin Cookie has made a very accurate observation that there are many “Catholics” (the majority, I fear) that believe the cafeteria approach is acceptable. Most think that religion is a part of life, rather than the center of life. Their faith experience is ambiguous and confusing because it is not based upon the person of Christ, but their own misaligned egos.

 

[guanophore]

I think that in most cases, that’s where sin begins. We fail before we begin because we don’t strive high enough, due to our own sense of inadequacy and out of fear. From there, it becomes habitual. I think there are very few people who say to themselves, I hate God and therefore I will do this that God hates - rather, it’s the other way around - they come to hate God because they know they aren’t living up to His expectations, which seem unrealistic on the face of the inadequacy they feel in themselves, by which they excuse themselves into sin.

For example, the boy who doesn’t know how he can be a provider, father, and husband, so gets into sinful living arrangements and has children out of wedlock, and then resents God for the instinctive sense within himself that is requiring him to commit to their welfare -a task made impossible by the fact that he isn’t their mother’s husband , so he blasts the Church for being too old-fashioned, or not understanding “the modern reality” or some such thing.

Failure comes first, and then rebellion, to justify failure.

This is very interesting, jmcrae. It makes me think of the passage in James:

…14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. James 1:15

It also makes me remember the response of Adam when confronted by God after eating of the apple. His first response was to blame Eve. “She gave it to me”! (it was not my fault).