The Consecration?

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As I understand it, the bread and wine change to Jesus’ body and blood during the words of institution in the mass and during the epiclesis in the divine liturgy. Is this accurate? I have no problem with accepting this, just want to know if I understand it correctly.
 
As I understand it, the bread and wine change to Jesus’ body and blood during the words of institution in the mass and during the epiclesis in the divine liturgy. Is this accurate? I have no problem with accepting this, just want to know if I understand it correctly.
Ture. But the specific point is theologically fuzzy for byzantines, and is desried to remains so.
 
" In a closer logical analysis of Transubstantiation, we find the first and fundamental notion to be that of conversion, which may be defined as “the transition of one thing into another in some aspect of being”. As is immediately evident, conversion (conversio) is something more than mere change (mutatio). Whereas in mere changes one of the two extremes may be expressed negatively, as, e.g., in the change of day and night, conversion requires two positive extremes, which are related to each other as thing to thing, and must have, besides, such an intimate connection with each other, that the last extreme (terminus ad quem) begins to be only as the first (terminus a quo) ceases to be, as, e.g., in the conversion of water into wine at Cana. A third element is usually required, known as the commune tertium, which, even after conversion has taken place, either physically or at least logically unites one extreme to the other; for in every true conversion the following condition must be fulfilled: “What was formerly A, is now B.” A very important question suggests itself as to whether the definition should further postulate the previous non-existence of the last extreme, for it seems strange that an existing terminus a quo, A, should be converted into an already existing terminus ad quem, B. If the act of conversion is not to become a mere process of substitution, as in sleight-of-hand performances, the terminus ad quem must unquestionably in some manner newly exist, just as the terminus a quo must in some manner really cease to exist. Yet as the disappearance of the latter is not attributable to annihilation properly so called, so there is no need of postulating creation, strictly so called, to explain the former’s coming into existence. The idea of conversion is amply realized if the following condition is fulfilled, viz., that a thing which already existed in substance, acquires an altogether new and previously non-existing mode of being. Thus in the resurrection of the dead, the dust of the human bodies will be truly converted into the bodies of the risen by their previously existing souls, just as at death they had been truly converted into corpses by the departure of the souls. This much as regards the general notion of conversion. Transubstantiation, however, is not a conversion simply so called, but a substantial conversion (conversio substantialis), inasmuch as one thing is substantially or essentially converted into another. Thus from the concept of Transubstantiation is excluded every sort of merely accidental conversion, whether it be purely natural (e.g. the metamorphosis of insects) or supernatural (e.g. the Transfiguration of Christ on Mount Tabor). Finally, Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in this, that only the substance is converted into another — the accidents remaining the same — just as would be the case if wood were miraculously converted into iron, the substance of the iron remaining hidden under the external appearance of the wood. " imprimatur et al :rolleyes: 😉 :rolleyes: 👍
newadvent.org/cathen/05572c.htm

Ask more to get more.!!!
 
Ture. But the specific point is theologically fuzzy for byzantines, and is desried to remains so.
By “Byzantines” do you mean those in communion with Rome? And what do you mean by “fuzzy.”

For means of comparison, the Chaldeans had to have some discussion about their Divine Liturgy, as it lacks, in the form they were using it at the time they united with Rome, the Words of Institution. I remember seeing something issued by the Vatican saying that the DL was still valid. I think the Chaldeans have inserted the Words. A priest I know claimed that the Assyrians acutally used to say it, but not writing it was Disciplina Arcana.
newadvent.org/cathen/01136d.htm
 
Ture. But the specific point is theologically fuzzy for byzantines, and is desried to remains so.
On the other side, the Western Rite Orthodox reunited to communion in Antioch (and the others I believe) have the epiclessis of the DL of St. John inserted, so that it is not “fuzzy.” The Orthodox Catholic Church has traditionally interpreted the prayer “Supplices Te Rogamus” as Rome’s epiclesis."
Cf: newadvent.org/cathen/03255c.htm
Supplices te rogamus
This prayer is commonly believed to be the remnant of the Roman Epiklesis (Duchesne joins the preceding “Supra quæ” to it as making up the Invocation, “Origines”, 173). It seems certain that our liturgy, like all the others, once had an Epiklesis, and this would be its natural place. Even as late as the time of Pope Gelasius I (492-96) there seems to have still been one. He writes: “How shall the Heavenly Spirit, when He is invoked to consecrate the divine mystery, come, if the priest and he who prays Him to come is guilty of bad actions?” (Ep., vii; Thiel, Ep. Rom. Pont., I, 486: “si sacerdos, et qui eum adesse deprecatur”. By striking out the “et” we have a much plainer sentence: “If the priest who prays Him to come”.) Watterich (Konsekration(name removed by moderator)ent, 166), and Drews (Entstehungsgesch., 28) think that several of the Secrets in the Leonine Sacramentary (which does not contain the Canon) are really Epikleses, For instance: “Send, we pray Thee O Lord, thy Holy Spirit, who shall make these our present gifts into thy Sacrament for us”, etc. (ed. Feltoe, p. 74; XXX Mass for July). The chief reason for considering our prayer “Supplices te rogamus” as the fragment of an Epiklesis is its place in the Canon, which corresponds exactly to that of the Epiklesis (following the Anamnesis) in the Syrian Rite (Brightman, 54). But its form is hardly that of an Epiklesis. The first words of the preceding prayer, “Supra quæ propitio ac sereno vultu respicere digneris”, suggest the beginning of the Alexandrine Epiklesis: “Look down upon us and upon this bread and this wine” (Brightman, 134), and the last part (Sacrosanctum Filii tui Corpus et Sanguinem) have perhaps a vague resemblance; but certainly the chief thing, the Invocation of the Holy Ghost to change this bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is wanting. Moreover there is a prayer in the Alexandrine Liturgy which corresponds singularly to these two prayers (“Supra quæ” and “Supplices”): “the Sacrifices . . . of them that offer honour and glory to thy holy name receive upon thy reasonable altar in heaven . . . through the ministry of thy holy angels and archangels; like as Thou didst accept the gifts of righteous Abel and the sacrifice of our father Abraham”, etc. (Brightman, I, 170, 171; the Greek form, 129). And this is not an Epiklesis but an Offertory prayer, coming in the middle of the Intercession that with them fills up what we should call the Preface. On the other hand the end of the “Supplices te rogamus” (from “ut quotquot”) corresponds very closely to the end of both Eastern Epikleses. Antioch has here: “that it may become to all who partake of it” (quotquot ex hac Altaris participatione) “for a forgiveness of sins and for life everlasting” etc. (Brightman, 54); and at Alexandria the form is: “that it may become to all of us who partake of it (a source of) Faith”, etc. (ib., 134). It seems, then, that this prayer in our Canon is a combination of the second part of an Invocation (with the essential clause left out) and an old Offertory prayer. It has been suggested that the angel mentioned here is the Holy Ghost – an attempt to bring it more into line with the proper form of an Invocation. There is however no foundation for this assertion. We have seen that the Alexandrine form has the plural “thy holy angels”; so has the Latin form in “De Sacramentis”; “per manus angelorum tuorum” (IV, v). The reference is simply to an angel or to angels who assist at the throne of God and carry our prayers to Him (Tob., xii, 12, etc.). We have already seen that the order and arrangement of our Canon presents difficulties; this is a further case in point. As for the vanished Invocation itself, it will probably always remain a mystery what has become of it. Watterich (op. cit., p. 142) thinks that it was Gelasius himself who removed it from this place and put it before the words of Institution. And indeed the prayer “Quam oblationem” has a curious suggestion of an Invocation in its terms. On the other hand an Epiklesis before the words of Institution would be an anomaly unparalleled in any rite in the world. To come back to the rubrics, the celebrant has resumed the normal attitude of standing with uplifted hands after the “Unde et memores”, except that now the forefingers and thumbs remain joined; at the “Supplices te rogamus” he bows deeply over the altar – a ceremony obviously in accordance with the nature of its first words – resting his joined hands on it; and he stays so to the words" ex hac altaris participatione" at which he kisses the altar, rises, joins his hands, and makes the sign of the cross over the Host at “Corpus”, over the chalice at “Sanguinem”, and on himself at “omni benedictione” (while he crosses himself, the left hand is, as always in this case, laid on the breast). He joins his hands for “Per eumdem”, etc., and lifts them up for the next prayer. The next two prayers complete the Intercession, of which we have the greater part before the Consecration.

Other Latin rites besides Rome’s (e.g. Milan) always had an epiclesis.
 
By “Byzantines” do you mean those in communion with Rome? And what do you mean by “fuzzy.”
The specific point at which the transubstantiation occurs is undefined, unlike the roman mass. fuzzy, as in not focused.

It hapens during the epiclesis, but it is not specific as to when. And Schmeman also holds to that view.
 
The specific point at which the transubstantiation occurs is undefined, unlike the roman mass. fuzzy, as in not focused.
How is saying it is at the epiclesis fuzzier than saying that it is at the words of institution?
It hapens during the epiclesis, but it is not specific as to when. And Schmeman also holds to that view.
Schmeman, just to reiterate in passing, doesn’t speak ex cathedra. For what it’s worth, here, as in many other areas, I am in agreement with him. I find it hard to find an instance of “when exactly does it happen” would be of monumental significance. Most people in my parish prostrate at the epiclesis at Amen. Amen. Amen. but they bow already at the word’s of institution. As long as both are present, I’m OK with it. Then then I believe in the Real Presence of Eucharist’s consecrated by priests under the Vatican, so consider the source.
 
Ah I find it funny that the “Byzantines” have it “fuzzy”.

Pride really leaves you "fuzzy"in the head.

But to make things clear for some newer people that might read this

What transubstanciates bread and wine in to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ are simple these words

“This is my Body”
“This is the Cup of My Blood”

Everything else is suplementary.

Obviously there are agzillion languages that are not English so mutatis mutandis
 
I feel very disappointed when conversations like this, judgmental and not accurate due to incorrect research bring wrong conclusions. I am a Greek Orthodox and as far as I know and knew(since I could understand the mass-Liturgy) the time where wine and bread become blood are not fuzzy at all. The liturgy (there are three but the most used one is by John Chrysostom which I think the catholics used but don’t know if they still do) says" τα σα εκ των σων σοι προσφερωμεν κατα παντα και δια παντα." which means Thine own of Thine own, we offer You, in behalf of all, and for all but the translation is not that great …the English language lacks a lot by far from the Greek (not to be taken offensively… then the priest kneels and says a prayer with low humble voice and asks the Father to bless the wine and make it blood and body of Christ. Nothing fuzzy. During this time which is the most sacred moment in the liturgy, everybody kneels with their head down…of course today that is not done by all the faithful ones…We have been walking the wrong way for a while. Not too many people knell for God anymore…sad very sad. If anyone wants the liturgy in English here…

byzantines.net/liturgy/liturgy.htm
 
I feel very disappointed when conversations like this, judgmental and not accurate due to incorrect research bring wrong conclusions. I am a Greek Orthodox and as far as I know and knew(since I could understand the mass-Liturgy) the time where wine and bread become blood are not fuzzy at all. The liturgy (there are three but the most used one is by John Chrysostom which I think the catholics used but don’t know if they still do) says" τα σα εκ των σων σοι προσφερωμεν κατα παντα και δια παντα." which means Thine own of Thine own, we offer You, in behalf of all, and for all but the translation is not that great …the English language lacks a lot by far from the Greek (not to be taken offensively… then the priest kneels and says a prayer with low humble voice and asks the Father to bless the wine and make it blood and body of Christ. Nothing fuzzy. During this time which is the most sacred moment in the liturgy, everybody kneels with their head down…of course today that is not done by all the faithful ones…We have been walking the wrong way for a while. Not too many people knell for God anymore…sad very sad. If anyone wants the liturgy in English here…

byzantines.net/liturgy/liturgy.htm
I mean no disrespect. I was doubtful about *how *“fuzzy” was the understanding.
Now I am in no way shape or form an expert on Eastern Rites, whether they be in Communion with the Roman Pontiff or not, though I like to see the richness of the Church and have gone many times, but what you seem to be describing is what in the Latin Rite we call the offeratory. This is not what transubstanciates the gifts but rather presents them liturgically.
It is very solemn of course, but not the most solemn moment.
That would be the words of Institution. That is only translated but never changed. Unlike the words of Absolution, which have not always the same, but the essential thing is that the priest issues a verdict and not inform you of one,(I absolve you v.s Christ absolves you) the words of Institution have been the same always, though the words immediately before and after might vary.
 
I feel very disappointed when conversations like this, judgmental and not accurate due to incorrect research bring wrong conclusions. I am a Greek Orthodox and as far as I know and knew(since I could understand the mass-Liturgy) the time where wine and bread become blood are not fuzzy at all. The liturgy (there are three but the most used one is by John Chrysostom which I think the catholics used but don’t know if they still do) says" τα σα εκ των σων σοι προσφερωμεν κατα παντα και δια παντα." which means Thine own of Thine own, we offer You, in behalf of all, and for all but the translation is not that great …the English language lacks a lot by far from the Greek (not to be taken offensively… then the priest kneels and says a prayer with low humble voice and asks the Father to bless the wine and make it blood and body of Christ. Nothing fuzzy. During this time which is the most sacred moment in the liturgy, everybody kneels with their head down…of course today that is not done by all the faithful ones…We have been walking the wrong way for a while. Not too many people knell for God anymore…sad very sad. If anyone wants the liturgy in English here…

byzantines.net/liturgy/liturgy.htm
You shouldn’t kneel on Sundays, according to the canons of the Fathers, as it is the day of Resurrection.

On non-Sunday DL, I prostrate.
 
Ah I find it funny that the “Byzantines” have it “fuzzy”.

Pride really leaves you "fuzzy"in the head.

But to make things clear for some newer people that might read this

What transubstanciates bread and wine in to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ are simple these words

“This is my Body”
“This is the Cup of My Blood”

Everything else is suplementary.
So calling on the Holy Spirit to make the change is “suplementary”😦
 
So calling on the Holy Spirit to make the change is “suplementary”😦
Suplemantary was meant in a non-tendacious manner.

By Divine Right a satanic priest could just grab a piece of bread and say “This is My Body” and is he had the intention to consecrate it is His Body.

Do I make myself clear?
 
Suplemantary was meant in a non-tendacious manner.

By Divine Right a satanic priest could just grab a piece of bread and say “This is My Body” and is he had the intention to consecrate it is His Body.

Do I make myself clear?
Whoa!! :eek: The power to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord is NOT solely based on intention. One must have valid orders. For one to be a satanic priest must they first be ordained in the Catholic (I’m using the word very broadly) Church?

Concerning the words of institution, one of the East Syrian churches uses a liturgy that does not have the words of institution in it. It is one of the most ancient liturgies and a few years ago (I forget the document) the Vatican acknowledged the legitimacy of their tradition. So they do not have the words of institution, but they do have a valid and licit Eucharist.

In Christ through Mary
 
Whoa!! :eek: The power to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord is NOT solely based on intention. One must have valid orders. For one to be a satanic priest must they first be ordained in the Catholic (I’m using the word very broadly) Church?

Concerning the words of institution, one of the East Syrian churches uses a liturgy that does not have the words of institution in it. It is one of the most ancient liturgies and a few years ago (I forget the document) the Vatican acknowledged the legitimacy of their tradition. So they do not have the words of institution, but they do have a valid and licit Eucharist.

In Christ through Mary
You are speaking of the Assyrian/church of the East.
 
It could be. All I remember is that it is one of the Eastern (non-Byzantine, non-Alexandrian) churches. And if I remember correctly their counterpart in communion with Rome is the Chaldean Catholic Church. I’ll look for the document to which I was referring and post a link to it. Could take a while.

In Christ through Mary
 
Here is the link to Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

Of note: though the Words of Institution ("This is my Body… This is my Blood) are not pronounced the Epiclesis is.

I was also deeply moved by the very rich and beautiful traditions in the “Anaphora of Addai and Mari,” particularly that of the Holy Leaven.

In Christ through Mary
 
Whoa!! :eek: The power to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord is NOT solely based on intention. One must have valid orders. For one to be a satanic priest must they first be ordained in the Catholic (I’m using the word very broadly) Church?

Concerning the words of institution, one of the East Syrian churches uses a liturgy that does not have the words of institution in it. It is one of the most ancient liturgies and a few years ago (I forget the document) the Vatican acknowledged the legitimacy of their tradition. So they do not have the words of institution, but they do have a valid and licit Eucharist.

In Christ through Mary
My goodness you are square in deed!
I obviously spoke about a real priest.

Now there is something amiss here in what you are saying. There has to be the words of institution. It has to be said somewhere in the liturgy, regardless of when. If not there is no consecration.
Now that it is in a wierd( to us at least) manner, no problem.

The Vatican cannot (I doubt it did) acknowledge a valid eucharist without that. Your information is amiss somewhere.
Whether it be the the type of approval or if that there isn’t words of institution or if this is even a mass that is in question.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
STOP THE PRESS!!!

I did the research. While the decision is not infallible and irreversible (let us keep this in mind) , it was determined that the Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari implicitly says the words of institution, though many Catholics added them to it.

I have my reservations… The document is clearly not a document issued infallibaly. I need to do more research.
 
In most Eastern liturgies. the Words of Institution and the Epiclesis are actually two parts of the same prayer.

It’s like asking which clause of the Our Father is the most important.
 
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