The "Correct" Faith

[ellen42]

Do people here believe that there is one true, correct ritualistic faith that therefore excludes all others?

Considering the audience, I’m going to guess that most people would consider Catholicism to be the true faith, and that being a very devout Presbyterian (for instance) would be less ideal. At the end of the day, as there are aspects of protestant faith that do not align with Catholic teachings, would that mean that protestants would not be admitted into heaven because their faith may have been administered by female ministers, or they do not have proper reconciliation of sins, or receive communion?

I don’t want to focus on moral aspects like pro-life/birth control/homosexuality topics, but more about the more ritualistic aspects of faith differences.

Consider two people who make the exact same moral choices in life, but one attends Mass at a Catholic church and one attends services at a Presbyterian church or Episcopal church. The Catholic Mass is very well defined, and there have been threads concerning “improper” or “invalid” masses that deviate from the proscribed ritual. Since protestants aren’t bound by the Vatican decrees, are they prevented from eternal salvation because they don’t follow the proper form of the Mass?

 

[nickybr38]

Absolutely not. Protestants are not denied salvation because they cannot attend Mass.

However… they are missing out on SO MANY GRACES.

The real question is… do you want ALL that Christ has left for us or do you just want bits and pieces?

Do you want clear direction and guidance? Or do you want to figure it out for yourself?

That’s the difference between the Catholic Church and the Protestant church (as a whole). The Catholic Church contains all the wisdom and grace that Christ left behind, whereas the Protestant church contains only some of the wisdom and only some of the graces.

 

[cargau]

Consider two people who make the exact same moral choices in life, but one attends Mass at a Catholic church and one attends services at a Presbyterian church or Episcopal church. The Catholic Mass is very well defined, and there have been threads concerning “improper” or “invalid” masses that deviate from the proscribed ritual. Since protestants aren’t bound by the Vatican decrees, are they prevented from eternal salvation because they don’t follow the proper form of the Mass?

Actually, in this example, I would place the protestant at a higher place. “For whom much is given, much is expected…”. The graces received through the Sacramental life of the Churchshould have taken root and provided so much more fruit.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

nickybr

**That’s the difference between the Catholic Church and the Protestant church (as a whole). The Catholic Church contains all the wisdom and grace that Christ left behind, whereas the Protestant church contains only some of the wisdom and only some of the graces. **

Well, I think we could take that another step.

It isn’t just less or more at stake. Some denominations teach falsehood and become as wolves among the sheep. Priestly pedophilia aside, the Catholic Church does not teach priestly pedophilia as moral. However, the Church of England now seems to teach homosexual marriage as consistent with the gospel of Christ.

That is one (of many) reasons why some Anglican bishops, priests, and whole parishes in England and the United States are going over to Rome. They see Rome not just a more, but as true and righteous, while the Anglican toleration of homosexual marriage and openly homosexual bishops is downright evil.

 

[nickybr38]

nickybr

**That’s the difference between the Catholic Church and the Protestant church (as a whole). The Catholic Church contains all the wisdom and grace that Christ left behind, whereas the Protestant church contains only some of the wisdom and only some of the graces. **

Well, I think we could take that another step.

It isn’t just less or more at stake. Some denominations teach falsehood and become as wolves among the sheep. Priestly pedophilia aside, the Catholic Church does not teach priestly pedophilia as moral. However, the Church of England now seems to teach homosexual marriage as consistent with the gospel of Christ.

That is one (of many) reasons why some Anglican bishops, priests, and whole parishes in England and the United States are going over to Rome. They see Rome not just a more, but as true and righteous, while the Anglican toleration of homosexual marriage and openly homosexual bishops is downright evil.

You’re absolutely right. Some Protestant denominations are teaching outright falsehoods that CAN damage the soul. Why else would the devil promote lies if they weren’t dangerous?

 

[loozcannon]

Absolutely not. Protestants are not denied salvation because they cannot attend Mass.

However… they are missing out on SO MANY GRACES.

The real question is… do you want ALL that Christ has left for us or do you just want bits and pieces?

Do you want clear direction and guidance? Or do you want to figure it out for yourself?

That’s the difference between the Catholic Church and the Protestant church (as a whole). The Catholic Church contains all the wisdom and grace that Christ left behind, whereas the Protestant church contains only some of the wisdom and only some of the graces.

And THAT my friend, is why I’m being drawn to the Catholic church!

 

[englishredrose]

Do people here believe that there is one true, correct ritualistic faith that therefore excludes all others?

Considering the audience, I’m going to guess that most people would consider Catholicism to be the true faith, and that being a very devout Presbyterian (for instance) would be less ideal. At the end of the day, as there are aspects of protestant faith that do not align with Catholic teachings, would that mean that protestants would not be admitted into heaven because their faith may have been administered by female ministers, or they do not have proper reconciliation of sins, or receive communion?

I don’t want to focus on moral aspects like pro-life/birth control/homosexuality topics, but more about the more ritualistic aspects of faith differences.

Consider two people who make the exact same moral choices in life, but one attends Mass at a Catholic church and one attends services at a Presbyterian church or Episcopal church. The Catholic Mass is very well defined, and there have been threads concerning “improper” or “invalid” masses that deviate from the proscribed ritual. Since protestants aren’t bound by the Vatican decrees, are they prevented from eternal salvation because they don’t follow the proper form of the Mass?

have a good read of posts on here and you will gain insight what some think… For me, all that matters is that you believe in God. But I know I am one of very few on that even in own church. etc. I am very liberal on that side of things.

 

[BenedictFTW]

Actually, in this example, I would place the protestant at a higher place. “For whom much is given, much is expected…”. The graces received through the Sacramental life of the Churchshould have taken root and provided so much more fruit.

Not ‘higher’, surely? With all of the graces available to the Catholic, not to mention the confessional, the Protestant is at a distinct disadvantage. To say otherwise, is to fudge the question.

 

[nickybr38]

Not ‘higher’, surely? With all of the graces available to the Catholic, not to mention the confessional, the Protestant is at a distinct disadvantage. To say otherwise, is to fudge the question.

What he means is that to whom much is given MUCH is expected.

So in the example the Catholic should have done so much MORE with his life because so much more was given to him. So, in a way, he hasn’t done as well as he thinks if he’s done as much as the Protestant who didn’t have all the graces of the sacraments.

 

[ellen42]

You’re absolutely right. Some Protestant denominations are teaching outright falsehoods that CAN damage the soul. Why else would the devil promote lies if they weren’t dangerous?

This is both on and off topic

Off topic because I didn’t want to get into other denominations teaching falsehoods and having debates about what those are

On topic because – are you implying that (some) protestant faiths are inspired or affected by the devil, and following their rituals would lead you astray? Similarly, what about other faiths like Judaism or Islam?

 

[BenedictFTW]

We all must seek the Truth. Jesus is Truth. To whom did He give the Keys of the Kingdom to? What do famous converts to Catholicism say? Read the writings of St Cardinal John Henry Newman.

We have to speak the truth, quietly, with much love to our separated brothers and sisters. The truth is the Catholic Church is the One True Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ. He gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter, the first Pope, and gave all of the Apostles the power to forgive sins. This would not be possible without confession. The Catholic Church is the only one with priests empowered to forgive sins in the confessional. The Catholic Church is the only Church which has the Real Presence at Holy Communion. How can any human being pass up on these riches? Jesus wants to save us all. He has done everything He could and continues to work through His Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. Join us, our separated brothers and sisters. Pax

 

[nickybr38]

This is both on and off topic

Off topic because I didn’t want to get into other denominations teaching falsehoods and having debates about what those are

On topic because – are you implying that (some) protestant faiths are inspired or affected by the devil, and following their rituals would lead you astray? Similarly, what about other faiths like Judaism or Islam?

I think some ARE but the door is pride. When we give ourselves to pride, we leave doors open for outside influences. I don’t think every bad decision is inspired by demonic activity but I think some can be. I don’t think every Protestant breach is caused by demonic activity but I think some might be…

It’s not something one can speak definitively on from this side of things (in the physical world) but I suspect when we meet the Father we’ll be surprised just how much influence we let the other side have over us when we gave ourselves over to sin.

I think this can be carried into any religion. Anytime we give ourselves over to pride we put ourselves in a dangerous position because those little voices that whisper the things we want to hear suddenly sound VERY reasonable when we think we’re the ones who get to decide morality.

 

[1ke]

Do people here believe that there is one true, correct ritualistic faith that therefore excludes all others?

I am not sure what you mean by “ritualitstic” but yes, there is only one faith that is true.

would that mean that protestants would not be admitted into heaven because their faith may have been administered by female ministers, or they do not have proper reconciliation of sins, or receive communion?

The answer to whether or not any person is admitted to heaven is “maybe”. It is not so simply as simply being a corporate member of the Catholic Church or not.

Consider two people who make the exact same moral choices in life, but one attends Mass at a Catholic church and one attends services at a Presbyterian church or Episcopal church. The Catholic Mass is very well defined, and there have been threads concerning “improper” or “invalid” masses that deviate from the proscribed ritual. Since protestants aren’t bound by the Vatican decrees, are they prevented from eternal salvation because they don’t follow the proper form of the Mass?

Non-Catholics/non-Orthodox do not have a Mass. I don’t understand your premise, because the Catholic Church does not teach some sort of assurance of salvation based on attending Mass.

Mass and the graces that flow from it are one aspect of the faith.

 

[cargau]

Not ‘higher’, surely? With all of the graces available to the Catholic, not to mention the confessional, the Protestant is at a distinct disadvantage. To say otherwise, is to fudge the question.

I don’t necessarily see it that way. I will not presume to judge a soul, but I believe that God judges people where they are. “How well did you listen to my voice? How well did you care for the least of my brothers?”

A soul that responds to the love and message of Christ absent the graces derived from the Sacraments may be more favorably judged. I don’t know…Personally, I would never give up the precious spiritual resources found in the Church, but I do wonder how God sees it…Then again, maybe God finds a way to deliver those graces through the Church to the protestant, anyway…

Kinda thought provoking…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

If a Protestant finds in Catholicism a truth that is not present in his own faith, it ought to give pause to consider. And if, having discovered this to be so, a Protestant searches further and can find no flaw in Catholicism, what recourse does he have but to follow the path to Rome?

 

[ellen42]

I am not sure what you mean by “ritualitstic” but yes, there is only one faith that is true.

There’s nothing in the Bible about the Mass. The exact prayers, order of the mass, which readings, when we stand, kneel, receive communion, etc. are not dictated by God. Therefore, the Church could have developed the Mass ritual to be something different entirely (think parallel universe), and it would be equally valid. This holds for any other sacrament as well. This is the ritualistic nature of religion. We have a set procedure of rites and ceremonies that we follow to proclaim our faith.

The answer to whether or not any person is admitted to heaven is “maybe”. It is not so simply as simply being a corporate member of the Catholic Church or not.

Non-Catholics/non-Orthodox do not have a Mass. I don’t understand your premise, because the Catholic Church does not teach some sort of assurance of salvation based on attending Mass.

Mass and the graces that flow from it are one aspect of the faith.

Catholics choosing not to attend Mass is a sin, is it not? If you die with sin on your conscience, you may not be admitted into heaven. Therefore, a Catholic missing Mass may result in them not being admitted into heaven. Protestants don’t celebrate the Mass and it is not a sin for them to not participate in a Catholic Mass, as that is not a tenet of their faith.

Two people – lets say one person who was born and raised protestant, and a second who was confirmed Catholic, but then attended the same protestant services as the first throughout their adult life – reach the pearly gates.

Option A) The Protestant soul, having lived a good life and following the rituals of their faith, may gain entry into heaven. However, the Catholic soul, having forsaken their rituals and followed the Protestant rituals in their place but otherwise lived a similar good life as the Protestant, may be denied entry because a Catholic knowingly missing Mass is a sin.

Option B) The Catholic ritual was correct. Therefore, both souls are denied entry since neither of them followed the correct ritual.

Option C) The ritual isn’t important, and it’s what’s in your heart that matters. The two people are judged on their acts in the world, not which building they went to every Sunday

There may be other options, but these three cover what I’m trying to think about. Also, “denied entry into heaven” may just mean a stint in purgatory first.

 

[cargau]

If a Protestant finds in Catholicism a truth that is not present in his own faith, it ought to give pause to consider. And if, having discovered this to be so, a Protestant searches further and can find no flaw in Catholicism, what recourse does he have but to follow the path to Rome?

But, what if they believe that the are on the right path and pehaps never stop to consider the RCC.

And through their conscience are satisfied that they are where God has led them…What then. I feel very blessed to be a Catholic Christian. In fact, I am humbled by the blessings I have received. I sure would not want another brother or sister in Christ to see me as inflexible, intolerant and arrogant.

The truth is, I would love to see all our separated brethren to be reunited in the Catholic Church, but until then, I will do my best to love them where they are. That seems to me to be the best way to imitate Christ,

 

[BenedictFTW]

I don’t necessarily see it that way. I will not presume to judge a soul, but I believe that God judges people where they are. “How well did you listen to my voice? How well did you care for the least of my brothers?”

A soul that responds to the love and message of Christ absent the graces derived from the Sacraments may be more favorably judged. I don’t know…Personally, I would never give up the precious spiritual resources found in the Church, but I do wonder how God sees it…Then again, maybe God finds a way to deliver those graces through the Church to the protestant, anyway…

Kinda thought provoking…

Due to my understanding of the origins of the Protestant Church, and no offence is intended to our separated brethren, I would not choose to be part of that church. I am very grateful to have been born into and brought up as a member of a practising Catholic family. I would advise any Protestant to put aside the prejudice against Catholic teaching and beliefs that are prevalent in their customs and really study the teachings contained without the Deposit of Faith. We have the most amazing saints that were gifted theologians and philosophers. Nowhere on earth, in any institution, can such learned study be found. The Wisdom of the Holy Spirit abounds in the teachings of the Catholic Church and any honest look into these can only convince one that the Catholic Church is truly the Apostolic Church of Our Divine Lord.

 

[BenedictFTW]

But, what if they believe that the are on the right path and pehaps never stop to consider the RCC.

And through their conscience are satisfied that they are where God has led them…What then. I feel very blessed to be a Catholic Christian. In fact, I am humbled by the blessings I have received. I sure would not want another brother or sister in Christ to see me as inflexible, intolerant and arrogant.

The truth is, I would love to see all our separated brethren to be reunited in the Catholic Church, but until then, I will do my best to love them where they are. That seems to me to be the best way to imitate Christ,

It is your duty as a believing Catholic to evangelise. This does not mean that you be dogmatic or arrogant. It means that you are mindful that your separated brethren are in error and are missing out on the entire Truth of Christ to be found in Catholicism as well as the graces that flow through the Eucharist. Being so mindful, you will always try with gentleness to point out where they are wrong (this takes your knowing your own faith) and, in the face of intransigence, pray for them. God bless

 

[ellen42]

Due to my understanding of the origins of the Protestant Church, and no offence is intended to our separated brethren, I would not choose to be part of that church. I am very grateful to have been born into and brought up as a member of a practising Catholic family. I would advise any Protestant to put aside the prejudice against Catholic teaching and beliefs that are prevalent in their customs and really study the teachings contained without the Deposit of Faith. We have the most amazing saints that were gifted theologians and philosophers. Nowhere on earth, in any institution, can such learned study be found. The Wisdom of the Holy Spirit abounds in the teachings of the Catholic Church and any honest look into these can only convince one that the Catholic Church is truly the Apostolic Church of Our Divine Lord.

If you had been born Baptist, you probably be saying the same thing about the Baptist faith.

It is your duty as a believing Catholic to evangelise. This does not mean that you be dogmatic or arrogant. It means that you are mindful that your separated brethren are in error and are missing out on the entire Truth of Christ to be found in Catholicism as well as the graces that flow through the Eucharist. Being so mindful, you will always try with gentleness to point out where they are wrong (this takes your knowing your own faith) and, in the face of intransigence, pray for them. God bless

And if you had been born Baptist, you’d definitely still be saying this with Catholic crossed out at Baptist written in.