The correct terms for the TLM

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Ichbinian

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I’d just like to point out (not that people have to follow this…it’s just out of interest and technicality):

The correct form is: The Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not:

The Traditional Latin Mass, because all Masses have Tradition in them.
The Tridentine Mass (that is from the 1500s and not 1962).
The Latin Mass, because the Novus Ordo is celebrated in Latin.

This is correct, is it not?
 
It may be the correct term, but we all know what people are talking about when they use the other terms.
 
I use EF or Traditional Latin Mass because the OF can be said in Latin. To me TLM indicates the EF. Of the OF and EF, the EF or TLM is certainly the more traditional of the two in the Latin language.
 
It may be the correct term, but we all know what people are talking about when they use the other terms.
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Exactly what I meant by “it’s just out of interest and technicality”. 🙂
 
“The Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite”

We could shorten that to “TEFotRR”

We could shorten “The Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite” to “TOFotRR”

I suppose, all kidding aside, it does make sense to simply use EF for “The Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite”.

And OF for the “Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite”

However, “TLM” looks better in print than “EF”
But, I will have to say that I think that “OF” is preferable to “NO”

I often see BVM for our Blessed Virgin Mary, which, when I first became a Catholic seemed odd to me - sort of like a name of a car.

I have never been able to bring myself to actually use “BVM” in my writings but I understand why many do.
 
Cider said:
It may be the correct term, but we all know what people are talking about when they use the other terms.
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In all fairness this is not entirely true. It has taken me sometime to figure out just what Mass we are talking about at any given time. For some of the parishioners in my little Mission Church, TLM means the “Ordinary Mass of the Roman Rite” said in Latin.
preV2tradcath said:
I use EF or Traditional Latin Mass because the OF can be said in Latin. To me TLM indicates the EF. Of the OF and EF, the EF or TLM is certainly the more traditional of the two in the Latin language.
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Walking into that statement without prior knowledge would be like walking into the middle of a complex movie.
 
Since the terms Ordinary Form (OF) and Extraordinary Form (EF) are terms introduced by Pope Benedict XVI, and were doubtless deliberately chosen to avoid any controversial connotations in either direction, I think it would be well for us to adopt them.
 
Cluny said:
Since the terms Ordinary Form (OF) and Extraordinary Form (EF) are terms introduced by Pope Benedict XVI, and were doubtless deliberately chosen to avoid any controversial connotations in either direction, I think it would be well for us to adopt them.
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That makes sense to me.
I am grateful that we have both forms.
I wish that there was more of an opportunity for me to attend the Extraordinary Form.
 
Cluny said:
Since the terms Ordinary Form (OF) and Extraordinary Form (EF) are terms introduced by Pope Benedict XVI, and were doubtless deliberately chosen to avoid any controversial connotations in either direction, I think it would be well for us to adopt them.
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I agree.
 
Ichbinian said:
I’d just like to point out (not that people have to follow this…it’s just out of interest and technicality):

The correct form is: The Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not:

The Traditional Latin Mass, because all Masses have Tradition in them.
The Tridentine Mass (that is from the 1500s and not 1962).
The Latin Mass, because the Novus Ordo is celebrated in Latin.

This is correct, is it not?
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Actually, most of the people I know aren’t really picky or offended by what others call it. I know that a lot of people who attend the Ordinary Form exclusively take these things really personal. Most of us don’t, because we know what it is. Call it the Traditional, the Extraordinary, the Old , the Gregorian , the Pian the Tridentine etc etc etc.Whatever you want.

It really doesn’t matter. It is what it is, no matter what you choose to call it. The Most Beautiful Thing This Side of Heaven:thumbsup:.
 
Personally I don’t like the term “Extraordinary” for the kind of Mass that is now being called that. The reason I don’t like that term was that it was quite ordinary in the early 1960’s which was during my lifetime.

It my be quite out of the ordinary in the year 2009 since most Masses are now celebrated in the vernacular and some Latin Masses are Novus Ordo.

I’m used to hearing the term “extraordinary” used to refer to the Mass that bears that label. In fact, that’s the kind of Mass I’ve been going to lately. Maybe I ought to ask our priest what a Gregorian Mass is and see what he says. His confirmation name is Gregory.

You know what Shakespeare had to say, “a rose is a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.”🙂
 
I just “googled” “Gregorian Mass” and got some links about the Masses that are said for 30 days in a row. I forgot that there were Masses like that. You’d have to pay a huge stipend for these 30 Masses. I found a link that said it would cost $150.

Anyway, I’m not feeling like we should “split hairs” over what to call this kind of Mass, but some terms for it seem to make sense to some of us more than others.

I:o claim that my favourite colour is “purple”; someone else may say the same colour is called “violet”. I don’t care what you call my favourite colour-I don’t want any feuding over it/
 
sparkielee said:
You know what Shakespeare had to say, “a rose is a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.”🙂
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Please forgive me for being pedantic :p, especially since your point is taken; but I hate to see Shakespeare misquoted. 😉 Juliet actually says:

What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.

“Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose.” is a line from Gertrude Stein’s poem Sacred Emily.
 
Cluny said:
Since the terms Ordinary Form (OF) and Extraordinary Form (EF) are terms introduced by Pope Benedict XVI, and were doubtless deliberately chosen to avoid any controversial connotations in either direction, I think it would be well for us to adopt them.
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It is true that His Holiness used those terms but, :twocents: it seems to me, in a limited and not in any deliberate way. Why commentators and the faithful latched onto them I shall never understand? :rolleyes:

Here are some statistics on the usage of various terms in the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum:
TERM | # OF USAGES
*ordinaria expressio *| 1
*ordinaria forma *| 0
*extraordinaria expressio *| 1
*extraordinaria forma *| 2
*Missale Romanum a beato Ioanne XXIII *| 7
Missale Romanum anno 1962 | 2
( Without also referring to Bl John XXIII)
Furthermore, the letter never uses the phrase *extraordinaria expressio / forma *except it refers to the “Missal of Bl John XXIII / 1962” in the same or immediately preceding sentence.

And the world latches onto this “EF”/“OF” terminology? :rolleyes: meh :twocents:

I used to prefer “Misssal of Bl John XXIII / 1962”, but since the President of the Pontifical Commission *Ecclesia Dei *Dario Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos says “Gregorian Rite” is the just name for it, I’ve cast my lot with him.

tee
 
Let’s face it, those who prefer the new Mass want it called the Ordinary Form as it suggests it is the standard. Those who prefer the old Mass like calling it traditional as it speaks to the past thousand or so years.

Wouldn’t the direct comparison to the TLM be New Venacular Mass or NVM?

Words and labels matter. Just look at the semantics used in the abortion debate or modern politics. Labels can influence perception which is what this issue is all about. I read a very interesting blog entry which I’m going to post on a new thread.
 
Ockham said:
Let’s face it, those who prefer the new Mass want it called the Ordinary Form as it suggests it is the standard. Those who prefer the old Mass like calling it traditional as it speaks to the past thousand or so years.

Wouldn’t the direct comparison to the TLM be New Venacular Mass or NVM?

Words and labels matter. Just look at the semantics used in the abortion debate or modern politics. Labels can influence perception which is what this issue is all about. I read a very interesting blog entry which I’m going to post on a new thread.
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Yes, but truth also matters. The major reason the mass which emerged following the Second Vatican Council is called the “Ordinary Form” is because it is the standard form of the liturgy in use today. I agree that those who prefer to call the “old mass” a “traditional” mass do so in order to point out the rich history of that liturgy, but they also do so in order to imply that the “new mass” does not share in that rich history and tradition. This is false. If the debate concerning the liturgies we are talking about was merely about which language is used in the liturgy, then your equating TLM with NVM might be correct, but the debate is about much more than language. I do agree with your last paragraph and concur that “labels can influence perception.”
 
I don’t like saying “Latin Mass” because that makes it seem like all we care about is the LANGUAGE. I have talked about the “Latin Mass” and people rejoinder: “You can say the new one in Latin, too.” That glosses over all the differences between the two.

That’s why it’s important to emphasize the utter differences that separate the two Masses (though, yes, they are equal in “weight”). Just saying “Latin Mass” doesn’t really work.
 
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