The Cosmic Slot Machine: a metaphor of free will

[blase6]

Freedom is where something happens by chance, but that chance happens to be your fault.

God wants to create creatures who can love him back. But for it to be “real” love, they have to be able to not love him. So God creates persons and runs them through the Cosmic Slot Machine, where it is determined whether they will accept God and go to Heaven, or reject God and go to hell.

The problem is that freedom just doesn’t make any logical sense. In our world there are apparently only things which happen because they must happen. “Chances” don’t really exist, unless you are a scientist/philosopher who pushes a weird understanding of the behavior of subatomic particles.

This is the world which would make sense to me: God would create the world because he was necessitated by his nature, which desires things to exist. And since God is perfect, he would not allow imperfection to exist in any way.

But sadly, the world is not that simple. It is a chaotic mess of freedom where there is great suffering because of freedom. But God prefers this world to one without suffering. It is maddening.

It isn’t fair to continually assert that a person is ultimately responsible for their own actions, when there is all the evidence against it. One’s family background, one’s disposition, one’s opportunities, all of those things are predetermined. Creativity and spontaneity seem to be lies. Everything human beings create as art is always based on other things. It is extremely difficult to see the rat race every day and still hold one’s belief in freedom.

 

[Bahman]

Freedom is where something happens by chance, but that chance happens to be your fault…

Freedom is where something happen consciously.

 

[blase6]

Freedom is where something happen consciously.

You constantly say this but have not backed it up with any credible evidence.

 

[Bahman]

You constantly say this but have not backed it up with any credible evidence.

The very evidence is you. You want me to show you to yourself. Do you flip a coin every time you make a choice? You just do it, plain and simple. Do you want to try to understand the basic underlying of consciousness. There is not, that is the basic element of reality since it is simple. It is the essence of any being with the ability to experience and create.

 

[blase6]

The very evidence is you. You want me to show you to yourself. Do you flip a coin every time you make a choice? You just do it, plain and simple. Do you want to try to understand the basic underlying of consciousness. There is not, that is the basic element of reality since it is simple. It is the essence of any being with the ability to experience and create.

I am conscious of my heart beating, but I don’t choose to make it beat.

 

[Bahman]

I am conscious of my heart beating, but I don’t choose to make it beat.

So something else is taking care of your heart beat.

 

[blase6]

So something else is taking care of your heart beat.

Yes, my heart beats because my brain sets off the muscle movement. But I do not consciously will my heart to beat.

 

[Bahman]

Yes, my heart beats because my brain sets off the muscle movement. But I do not consciously will my heart to beat.

Very good. Hence brain is conscious of its own world. There is no reason to think that we are sharing the same world.

 

[blase6]

Very good. Hence brain is conscious of its own world. There is no reason to think that we are sharing the same world.

I don’t know what you mean by “consciousness”.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It isn’t fair to continually assert that a person is ultimately responsible for their own actions, when there is all the evidence against it. One’s family background, one’s disposition, one’s opportunities, all of those things are predetermined. Creativity and spontaneity seem to be lies. Everything human beings create as art is always based on other things. It is extremely difficult to see the rat race every day and still hold one’s belief in freedom.

So basically you just eat it all up and bemoan your circumstances without changing anything. Rather strange coincidence that I’m hearing Larger than Life by the Backstreet Boys while I’m typing out this reply.

In all honesty, maybe God’s telling me to be happy people like you exist. After all, if you’re so resigned, you’ll all be easy to pick on or sweep aside should I ever see you in the way of my personal ambitions. In all your threads, I have seen you despise the idea of freedom and the chaos it brings. But frankly, everything you deem as predetermined runs the same gamut as those who make excuses.

But go ahead. Make them. The more ‘predetermined’ or ‘predisposed’ everyone else thinks they are to take whatever life throws at them, the more capacity for the exceptional daring ones to seize it all for themselves. After all, what is your only defense? That we are predetermined to conquer you? Good! Keep thinking that! I hereby declare myself one of the Ubermensch.

Yes, my heart beats because my brain sets off the muscle movement. But I do not consciously will my heart to beat.

Actually you can will it to stop beating. That’d be suicide of course but if you’re trying to make a point…

 

[Aloysium]

Yes, my heart beats because my brain sets off the muscle movement. But I do not consciously will my heart to beat.

The heart beats itself. It contains a node that emits a charge which is sent through its conduction system, causing the rhythmic sequential contractions that drive the blood out. Heart cells contract on their own, if you place two (myocytes) in contact with each other, they will beat in unison.

 

[blase6]

So basically you just eat it all up and bemoan your circumstances without changing anything. Rather strange coincidence that I’m hearing Larger than Life by the Backstreet Boys while I’m typing out this reply.

In all honesty, maybe God’s telling me to be happy people like you exist. After all, if you’re so resigned, you’ll all be easy to pick on or sweep aside should I ever see you in the way of my personal ambitions. In all your threads, I have seen you despise the idea of freedom and the chaos it brings. But frankly, everything you deem as predetermined runs the same gamut as those who make excuses.

But go ahead. Make them. The more ‘predetermined’ or ‘predisposed’ everyone else thinks they are to take whatever life throws at them, the more capacity for the exceptional daring ones to seize it all for themselves. After all, what is your only defense? That we are predetermined to conquer you? Good! Keep thinking that! I hereby declare myself one of the Ubermensch.

Actually you can will it to stop beating. That’d be suicide of course but if you’re trying to make a point…

That is like a psychopathic thought process right there. You should just stop. Pride comes before a fall. The cool shounen you see in anime generally aren’t worth emulating in real life.

This is the philosophy forum. If you just want to attack people’s character without arguing philosophically, don’t post.

EDIT: No, you can’t literally will your heart to stop beating.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That is like a psychopathic thought process right there. You should just stop. Pride comes before a fall. The cool shounen you see in anime generally aren’t worth emulating in real life.

Says the man who denies freedom. Who’s the real psychopath?

If you can’t ask yourself that question without feeling emotionally insulted then it’s you who needs to watch their posts.

And for the record? The top dogs who invented the technologies you’re using probably behaved more like shounen characters than you would like to admit. They believed in the power of freedom and creativity, both concepts you continuously show nothing but depressing contempt for. Many besides me have fruitlessly responded to you with evidence of freedom right before your eyes but your rebuttals consist mostly of overly simplistic one-liners.

You call this philosophy?

Is this orthodox Catholic thought CAFers?

This is the philosophy forum. If you just want to attack people’s character without arguing philosophically, don’t post.

I repeat: Is your position really philosophical or just pretending to be because you seem to have some personal beef with the concept of freedom?

For the record, I have barely responded to any of your threads just to see how more orthodox and ‘philosophical’ Catholics would try to counter your downright disturbing understanding of freedom.

Not even they seem to satisfy you. What’s the point? This is not a personal attack. It’s a frank, blunt observation. And if you’re really as philosophical as you say you are, you’d actually put my post in consideration instead of running scared of the implications of your own views.

If freedom is such a dead thing to you, then you wouldn’t be running scared of ‘ambitious psychopaths’ like me. You’d just accept it.

No, you can’t literally will your heart to stop beating.

Take a knife to the heart. Unless you’re a vampire, it would obviously stop beating.

 

[blase6]

Says the man who denies freedom. Who’s the real psychopath?

If you can’t ask yourself that question without feeling emotionally insulted then it’s you who needs to watch their posts.

And for the record? The top dogs who invented the technologies you’re using probably behaved more like shounen characters than you would like to admit. They believed in the power of freedom and creativity, both concepts you continuously show nothing but depressing contempt for. Many besides me have fruitlessly responded to you with evidence of freedom right before your eyes but your rebuttals consist mostly of overly simplistic one-liners.

You call this philosophy?

Is this orthodox Catholic thought CAFers?

I repeat: Is your position really philosophical or just pretending to be because you seem to have some personal beef with the concept of freedom?

For the record, I have barely responded to any of your threads just to see how more orthodox and ‘philosophical’ Catholics would try to counter your downright disturbing understanding of freedom.

Not even they seem to satisfy you. What’s the point? This is not a personal attack. It’s a frank, blunt observation. And if you’re really as philosophical as you say you are, you’d actually put my post in consideration instead of running scared of the implications of your own views.

If freedom is such a dead thing to you, then you wouldn’t be running scared of ‘ambitious psychopaths’ like me. You’d just accept it.

I am quite aware of the positive effect believing in freedom has on my life, and I seek to refine my understanding of freedom to avoid error. But when logical problems arise in my understanding, I reach out to see if anyone can help. But almost nothing anyone says addresses my deep logical problems with accepting the reality of free will.

I am consistently making an effort to avoid falling into thoughtless habit and to take control of my life, but I am constantly reminded by my experiences that it may all be just an illusion of control.

Take a knife to the heart. Unless you’re a vampire, it would obviously stop beating.

Not the same thing as “willing” your heart to stop beating.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

But when logical problems arise in my understanding, I reach out to see if anyone can help. But almost nothing anyone says addresses my deep logical problems with accepting the reality of free will.

The tone of your posts don’t seem to suggest you’re psychologically predisposed to even accept the answers to these problems. And no, I highly doubt I’m alone in this observation.

I am consistently making an effort to avoid falling into thoughtless habit and to take control of my life, but I am constantly reminded by my experiences that it may all be just an illusion of control.

So? Look at Job! I actually despise his story in the Bible but in a sense, he too had a choice despite all that Satan threw at him! In the end, He chose God. (In retrospect, perhaps I should thank you further for lightening my understanding of the man.)

You can even take Job’s story and apply to other choices besides just choosing God. Try switching out God and Satan with yourself and your circumstances.

You still have a choice. You can either curse yourself to oblivion or you can hold on and fight on for what is good.

Not the same thing as “willing” your heart to stop beating.

So it’s not ‘willing’ as long as you can’t use telekinesis?

Will + knife + suicidal tendencies = someone who stopped their own hear from beating. There’s nothing there to differentiate. I don’t see the point.

 

[blase6]

The tone of your posts don’t seem to suggest you’re not psychologically predisposed to even accept the answers to these problems. And no, I highly doubt I’m alone in this observation.

The first sentence here was difficult to understand. Took me a moment.

So? Look at Job! I actually despise his story in the Bible but in a sense, he too had a choice despite all that Satan threw at him! In the end, He chose God. (In retrospect, perhaps I should thank you further for lightening my understanding of the man.)

You can even take Job’s story and apply to other choices besides just choosing God. Try switching out God and Satan with yourself and your circumstances.

You still have a choice. You can either curse yourself to oblivion or you can hold on and fight on for what is good.

I don’t know what this has to do with a logical problem accepting freedom.

So it’s not ‘willing’ as long as you can’t use telekinesis?

Will + knife + suicidal tendencies = someone who stopped their own hear from beating. There’s nothing there to differentiate. I don’t see the point.

My point was that there are things about your body that you can’t control by your will alone. At least in this life.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The first sentence here was difficult to understand. Took me a moment.

Had to edit that a bit. I hope it’s better now.

I don’t know what this has to do with a logical problem accepting freedom.

Then I may I suggest reflecting upon them for a while. The story of Job has even been shared on these boards as a classic case of man exercising his freedom to choose God in spite of the adversity hurled at him by God’s enemy. The story itself wouldn’t exist if freedom didn’t. The famous lines “Curse God and die.” wouldn’t be so significant if it wasn’t interpreted as a choice.

My point was that there are things about your body that you can’t control by your will alone. At least in this life.

Actually, you can. The use of diet, exercise, medicines and among others have long been used to manually regulate our bodies every day. Just because you can’t reshape your hair in five seconds doesn’t mean you can’t go to a hair salon.

You might dismiss this as un-philosophical but limitations are the cheapest forms of excuse.

 

[blase6]

Then I may I suggest reflecting upon them for a while. The story of Job has even been shared on these boards as a classic case of man exercising his freedom to choose God in spite of the adversity hurled at him by God’s enemy. The story itself wouldn’t exist if freedom didn’t. The famous lines “Curse God and die.” wouldn’t be so significant if it wasn’t interpreted as a choice.

I thought the point of the story of Job was “you don’t understand why God allows you to suffer, so don’t complain”.

Actually, you can. The use of diet, exercise, medicines and among others have long been used to manually regulate our bodies every day. Just because you can’t reshape your hair in five seconds doesn’t mean you can’t go to a hair salon.

You might dismiss this as un-philosophical but limitations are the cheapest forms of excuse.

I said by your will alone. I was arguing against Bahman who thinks that all actions involve “consciousness”. You can move your limbs and muscles with your will alone, but most everything else requires secondary causes. Like the knife.

 

[oldcelt]

Free will is either absolute, or there is no free will at all.

John

 

[oldcelt]

I thought the point of the story of Job was “you don’t understand why God allows you to suffer, so don’t complain”.

I said by your will alone. I was arguing against Bahman who thinks that all actions involve “consciousness”. You can move your limbs and muscles with your will alone, but most everything else requires secondary causes. Like the knife.

I thought that the lesson from Job is that the god in the story would sell out a faithful servant to make a point to his greatest enemy.

John