The cosmological God and the personal God

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There are many arguments for the existence of God from a cosmological perspective (Acquinas’ Prime Mover being a typical example). So, let’s assume that a cosmological God exists.

However, how do you go from the existence of a cosmological God to equating this God with the God of your religion?

Let’s consider a simple example. A cosmological God (i.e. the one which made the Universe) obviously knows how the Universe is built. Yet, both Jewish and Christian scriptures (which are, allegedly, inspired by God) describe a completely incorrect cosmology. For example, in the Old Testament, the heavens are a solid sphere, with a reservoir of water on top. And in the New Testament, Jesus ascends (i.e. goes up) into heaven, which is a realm above the sky, where God lives. We now know that this is not the case, and even Yuri Gagarin radioed back “I see no God up here”.

Another example. Genesis mentions both the Sun and the stars. Thus, Genesis has all the language necessary to contain a simple phrase “The Sun is a star”. Yet, that obvious truth is nowhere to be found. Even worse, one Giordano Bruno ended up burned alive, because he started with that very proposition and followed it to its logical conclusion, proposing an infinite number of alien civilizations, each with its own Adam, Fall, and Christ.

A third example. Why would a cosmological God who operates on a scale of superclusters of galaxies, personally attend to salvation of some species, inhabiting a small planet, orbiting a rather unremarkable star at the outskirts of some very typical galaxy? I mean, such God probably has a ton of other civilizations to look after, not to mention overseeing the day-to-day operations of the whole Universe. (Yes, I know that an infinite God can do that, but you get the idea… why would he bother?)

Having that in mind, what evidence do you have for equating your God (i.e. the God you believe in, with all of its characteristics), with the cosmological God?
 
There are many arguments for the existence of God from a cosmological perspective (Acquinas’ Prime Mover being a typical example). So, let’s assume that a cosmological God exists.

However, how do you go from the existence of a cosmological God to equating this God with the God of your religion?

Let’s consider a simple example. A cosmological God (i.e. the one which made the Universe) obviously knows how the Universe is built. Yet, both Jewish and Christian scriptures (which are, allegedly, inspired by God) describe a completely incorrect cosmology. For example, in the Old Testament, the heavens are a solid sphere, with a reservoir of water on top. And in the New Testament, Jesus ascends (i.e. goes up) into heaven, which is a realm above the sky, where God lives. We now know that this is not the case, and even Yuri Gagarin radioed back “I see no God up here”.

Another example. Genesis mentions both the Sun and the stars. Thus, Genesis has all the language necessary to contain a simple phrase “The Sun is a star”. Yet, that obvious truth is nowhere to be found. Even worse, one Giordano Bruno ended up burned alive, because he started with that very proposition and followed it to its logical conclusion, proposing an infinite number of alien civilizations, each with its own Adam, Fall, and Christ.

A third example. Why would a cosmological God who operates on a scale of superclusters of galaxies, personally attend to salvation of some species, inhabiting a small planet, orbiting a rather unremarkable star at the outskirts of some very typical galaxy? I mean, such God probably has a ton of other civilizations to look after, not to mention overseeing the day-to-day operations of the whole Universe. (Yes, I know that an infinite God can do that, but you get the idea… why would he bother?)

Having that in mind, what evidence do you have for equating your God (i.e. the God you believe in, with all of its characteristics), with the cosmological God?
A humbling perspective in the last paragraph.
 
There are many arguments for the existence of God from a cosmological perspective (Acquinas’ Prime Mover being a typical example). So, let’s assume that a cosmological God exists.

However, how do you go from the existence of a cosmological God to equating this God with the God of your religion?

Let’s consider a simple example. A cosmological God (i.e. the one which made the Universe) obviously knows how the Universe is built. Yet, both Jewish and Christian scriptures (which are, allegedly, inspired by God) describe a completely incorrect cosmology. For example, in the Old Testament, the heavens are a solid sphere, with a reservoir of water on top. And in the New Testament, Jesus ascends (i.e. goes up) into heaven, which is a realm above the sky, where God lives. We now know that this is not the case, and even Yuri Gagarin radioed back “I see no God up here”.

Another example. Genesis mentions both the Sun and the stars. Thus, Genesis has all the language necessary to contain a simple phrase “The Sun is a star”. Yet, that obvious truth is nowhere to be found. Even worse, one Giordano Bruno ended up burned alive, because he started with that very proposition and followed it to its logical conclusion, proposing an infinite number of alien civilizations, each with its own Adam, Fall, and Christ.

A third example. Why would a cosmological God who operates on a scale of superclusters of galaxies, personally attend to salvation of some species, inhabiting a small planet, orbiting a rather unremarkable star at the outskirts of some very typical galaxy? I mean, such God probably has a ton of other civilizations to look after, not to mention overseeing the day-to-day operations of the whole Universe. (Yes, I know that an infinite God can do that, but you get the idea… why would he bother?)

Having that in mind, what evidence do you have for equating your God (i.e. the God you believe in, with all of its characteristics), with the cosmological God?
The dominant Jewish view is that there are probably other civilizations of intelligent beings in the universe. However, since they were not given the Torah–an event that happened only once on Earth–they have no free will and therefore no moral responsibility to make appropriate choices. Despite their intelligence, they are not human the way we are with respect to making decisions. Moreover, their purpose is mainly for the benefit of mankind and, in particular, the Tzaddikim (righteous people), who will one day inhabit their worlds (all 18,000 of them) according to Talmudic teaching, which predicts space travel. The Zohar is very much in favor of life on other planets as well. There is also at least one passage in the Hebrew Bible that supports intelligent extra-terrestrial life, in Judges when Deborah curses Meroz and its inhabitants, interpreted by the Talmud as referring to a distant star.
 
AAquinas made several inferences about the qualities of the Prime Mover or God that identify Him with the Abrahamic God.

newadvent.org/summa/1.htm

The One God

EXISTENCE: The existence (2) of God.
ESSENCE: We cannot know what God is, but only what He is not. So to study Him, we study what He has not – such as composition and motion. His simplicity (3) or lack of composition. His perfection: and because everything in so far as it is perfect is called good, we shall speak of His goodness (6) – and goodness in general (5) – as well as His perfection (4). His infinity (7) and omnipresence (8). His immutability (9), and His eternity (10) following on His immutability. His unity (11). How God is known by us (12). The names of God (13).
OPERATIONS (INTELLECT): God’s knowledge (14). The ideas (15), which exist in His knowledge. Truth (16) in God, for knowledge is of things that are true. Falsity (17) in God. The life of God (18), since to understand belongs to living beings.
OPERATIONS (WILL): God’s will (19). In our own wills we find both the passions (such as joy and love), and the habits of the moral virtues (such as justice and fortitude). Hence we shall first consider the love (20) of God, and secondly His justice and mercy (21).
OPERATIONS (INTELLECT AND WILL): Providence (22), in respect to all created things; for in the science of morals, after the moral virtues themselves, comes the consideration of prudence, to which providence belongs. Predestination (23) and the book of life (24).
POWER: The power of God (25), the principle of the divine operation as proceeding to the exterior effect. The divine beatitude (26)

I also suggest reading St. Thomas’s other proofs besides his Cosmological Argument. They offer other insights into the nature of God.
 
The dominant Jewish view is that there are probably other civilizations of intelligent beings in the universe. However, since they were not given the Torah–an event that happened only once on Earth–they have no free will and therefore no moral responsibility to make appropriate choices. Despite their intelligence, they are not human the way we are with respect to making decisions. Moreover, their purpose is mainly for the benefit of mankind and, in particular, the Tzaddikim (righteous people), who will one day inhabit their worlds (all 18,000 of them) according to Talmudic teaching, which predicts space travel. The Zohar is very much in favor of life on other planets as well. There is also at least one passage in the Hebrew Bible that supports intelligent extra-terrestrial life, in Judges when Deborah curses Meroz and its inhabitants, interpreted by the Talmud as referring to a distant star.
I have not heard this argument before, though I admit a lot of ignorance on Talmudic teaching. Do you know if there is a shorter version of the Talmud that might include the above information?
 
A third example. Why would a cosmological God who operates on a scale of superclusters of galaxies, personally attend to salvation of some species, inhabiting a small planet, orbiting a rather unremarkable star at the outskirts of some very typical galaxy? I mean, such God probably has a ton of other civilizations to look after, not to mention overseeing the day-to-day operations of the whole Universe. (Yes, I know that an infinite God can do that, but you get the idea… why would he bother?)
Why would the size of the universe or the location of some species mean anything to the God who could create it? Such concepts as ‘vastness’ or ‘small’ or ‘large’ or ‘outskirts’ are relative terms and would have no relevancy to such a one. He could place the drama we know as our lives in any playing field, on any scale; it would make no difference.
 
However, how do you go from the existence of a cosmological God to equating this God with the God of your religion?
The short answer: Scripture (Old Testament and New Testament) and the continuous history of Judaism and Christianity over the last 3,500 years or so.

Also, you’re being too hard on ancient cosmology. Up to a certain point, it “agreed” with everyday perceptions.

Genesis describes an orderly, rational process. Man as the image of God is a great insight.

And the ancient Greeks (Pre-Socratics, Aristotle, Plato) produced a cosmology with deep meaning (though materially inaccurate).

If we see ancient cosmology more in phenomenological terms, somewhat like Heidegger’s commentary on the Pre-Socratics, we might begin to appreciate it a bit more.

But it’s not only ancient cosmology that has deep meaning. Ancient mythology is itself a phenomenology of the meaning of primordial phenomena, e.g., war, love. See Vincent Vycinas, Earth and Gods.
 
There are many arguments for the existence of God from a cosmological perspective (Acquinas’ Prime Mover being a typical example). So, let’s assume that a cosmological God exists.

However, how do you go from the existence of a cosmological God to equating this God with the God of your religion?
I hope you don’t mind, but I’m going to come back and answer this question at the end.
Let’s consider a simple example. A cosmological God (i.e. the one which made the Universe) obviously knows how the Universe is built. Yet, both Jewish and Christian scriptures (which are, allegedly, inspired by God) describe a completely incorrect cosmology. For example, in the Old Testament, the heavens are a solid sphere, with a reservoir of water on top. And in the New Testament, Jesus ascends (i.e. goes up) into heaven, which is a realm above the sky, where God lives. We now know that this is not the case, and even Yuri Gagarin radioed back “I see no God up here”.
Never forget that the scriptures are written FOR us, not for God. As a result, they are dripping with symbolic representations of reality… our limits of constraint on earth thus far mean that yes, the heavens ARE like a dome where the outside is filled with water… to this day we are STILL not able to leave the near vicinity of our planet… and while it’s HOPEFUL to think that we might one day be able to travel to other stars and inhabitable planets, there is also the very REAL possibility that there are not enough resources on the earth to both maintain life and realisitically equip such a mission. It may be that we NEVER leave this solar system. In that case, we really are hamsters living inside a dome submerged in an ocean… stuck here. Maybe the scriptures here serve as a subtle warning of our limitations… who knows? What we do know is that for the ancients, while they could certainly jump upwards, the heavens represented a REAL boundary for them.

In the same way, the dead are buried… in the ground. It makes sense then, that humans would perceive of the darkness of being underground with the realm of death and sorrow. It is a metaphor built on our human understanding and experience. In that same way, the heavens represent light and air… the opposite of death. They are a symbol of human life built around our experiences as well. It makes sense, then, that Christ, relating to us in terms of our understandable experiences and symbols at the time, would “ascend” to show His “rising” into heaven through a physical metaphor that was widely understandable at the time.

And we can be certain that our language and symbols today are LIKEWISE built on our finite experience. If Christ were to have become incarnate today, you can bet that the symbols referenced would be utterly different… but they would be no less true, and they would be no less limited by the fact that we, despite our growth as a species, are still incredibly limited and ignorant beings.
Another example. Genesis mentions both the Sun and the stars. Thus, Genesis has all the language necessary to contain a simple phrase “The Sun is a star”. Yet, that obvious truth is nowhere to be found. Even worse, one Giordano Bruno ended up burned alive, because he started with that very proposition and followed it to its logical conclusion, proposing an infinite number of alien civilizations, each with its own Adam, Fall, and Christ.
Bruno was burned for his heresies, not for the idea (that was a widely known fact at the time) that the sun was a star. What he tried to do was make science into a religion, and that was his downfall… science is NOT religion, nor does it make or break doctrines.
A third example. Why would a cosmological God who operates on a scale of superclusters of galaxies, personally attend to salvation of some species, inhabiting a small planet, orbiting a rather unremarkable star at the outskirts of some very typical galaxy? I mean, such God probably has a ton of other civilizations to look after, not to mention overseeing the day-to-day operations of the whole Universe. (Yes, I know that an infinite God can do that, but you get the idea… why would he bother?)
There is no proof whatsoever at this time that there even IS another species on other planets with “human” perception… nor any evidence that such beings would not be “human” in nature even if we understood them. And even if they ARE in existance, such beings would be “human” aliens and would be included in the same plan of salvation of which we share in (in other words, the actions of Christ here on earth would apply to all of said civilizations). Remember that in terms of moral agents, human and homo-sapien are not NECESSARILY synonymous… it just happens that in our entire experience thus far, the only beings which fit the definition of human which have been observed are homo-sapiens.

That being said, all this is humbling, but also awe inspiring, because we believe that the entire universe, all of it, was created with Humans as the end goal in mind. We are tiny carbon based smudges on a tiny rock, orbiting a rather normal star surrounded by the great cosmos, and yet ALL of that was created specifically for us… and the message from that very counter rational idea is twofold: 1) as you point out, be humble and 2) feel loved by the fact that such an awesome God created all of this as a working system for humans (of any species in which they might occur)
Having that in mind, what evidence do you have for equating your God (i.e. the God you believe in, with all of its characteristics), with the cosmological God?
**Logic and science.

Science: **

For thousands of years, abrahamic traditions were the ONLY people on earth who believed that the entire universe was finite. Other religions and societies believed in creation stories, but their Gods always took some form of “stuff” that was already there and refashioned it. It was both a point of ridicule and awe for Christians because we were basically full of belief that our God not only created life, but also created existance itself (as we know it). Hardcore pagans thought we were either silly, or thought that such an insanely powerful God was impossible.

Science agreed… until the 20th century, nearly all scientists held that the universe itself was infinite. Religion and faithful scientists said otherwise, and were ridiculed off the stage. And then something crazy happened: solid proof of the big bang was introduced, and in the space of a couple decades, science completely reversed itself. Christianity had formulated a hypothesis, the hypothesis had been scrutinized extensively, and the hypothesis was proven to be true. That’s the scientific method for you.

In the same way, the Abrahamic traditions postulated very specifically that all of humanity had two common and converging ancestors… one male and one female. It also postulated, in the form of Noah, that the male common ancestor would be much more recent than the female common ancestor (Eve). Scientists long ridiculed this idea as well… and religiosos were held as silly for holding such a belief. Once again, in the last few decades as genetics have evolved, we find that there WAS in fact a common female ancestor AND a common male ancestor, and that, surprise, the common male ancestor WAS much more recent than the female. Science has come up with all sorts of theories about why this is possible which deny the Christian biblical account, but one irrefutable fact remains: Christianity postulated another hypothesis which was rigorously scrutinized and once again has been proven to be true.

**Logic: **

Since we’ve now seen that Abrahamic traditions are the only ones whose beliefs about creation and the formation of human life have survived the rigors of science, even when all of the scientific field was stacked against the religious hypothesis, we can narrow our search down to the abrahamic traditions. Here we engage our logic:
  1. Islam: recognizes the new testament as divinely inspired by God, and yet then does linguistic backflips to believe that Jesus was “just a prophet” and not God, despite the fact that the new testament clearly states that Jesus was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Such a logical contradiction cannot be possible in the true faith, so I reject Islam as the true Church of God.
  2. Judaism: all of its wonderful prophecies are fulfilled in Christ, even though some are fulfilled in ways which were beyond the very limited human understandings of said prophecies. If I look at judaism as a faith which made accurate and true predictions about the nature of the universe, then I look at the prophecies that it made, it is no great step for me to look at Christ and see that those predictions are likewise fulfilled. It isn’t so much that I REJECT Judaism, so much as I think that the old covenant is fulfilled in the Christian church… that we are made fulfilled Jews by our life in Christ. In other words, I believe in Christianity BECAUSE I believe in Judaism (in a way) and its prophecies… but I think it is illogical to continue looking for the fulfillment of those prophecies in a limited and less universal means than Christ has already accomplished. Ergo, I accept Christ as the fulfillment of Judaism and am therefore a christian.
 
There are many arguments for the existence of God from a cosmological perspective (Acquinas’ Prime Mover being a typical example). So, let’s assume that a cosmological God exists.

However, how do you go from the existence of a cosmological God to equating this God with the God of your religion?

Let’s consider a simple example. A cosmological God (i.e. the one which made the Universe) obviously knows how the Universe is built. Yet, both Jewish and Christian scriptures (which are, allegedly, inspired by God) describe a completely incorrect cosmology. For example, in the Old Testament, the heavens are a solid sphere, with a reservoir of water on top. And in the New Testament, Jesus ascends (i.e. goes up) into heaven, which is a realm above the sky, where God lives. We now know that this is not the case, and even Yuri Gagarin radioed back “I see no God up here”.

Another example. Genesis mentions both the Sun and the stars. Thus, Genesis has all the language necessary to contain a simple phrase “The Sun is a star”. Yet, that obvious truth is nowhere to be found. Even worse, one Giordano Bruno ended up burned alive, because he started with that very proposition and followed it to its logical conclusion, proposing an infinite number of alien civilizations, each with its own Adam, Fall, and Christ.

A third example. Why would a cosmological God who operates on a scale of superclusters of galaxies, personally attend to salvation of some species, inhabiting a small planet, orbiting a rather unremarkable star at the outskirts of some very typical galaxy? I mean, such God probably has a ton of other civilizations to look after, not to mention overseeing the day-to-day operations of the whole Universe. (Yes, I know that an infinite God can do that, but you get the idea… why would he bother?)

Having that in mind, what evidence do you have for equating your God (i.e. the God you believe in, with all of its characteristics), with the cosmological God?
Why don’t you ask a really simple question like “…summerize to contents of what is known about nuclear physics in 1000 words or less. Don’t you realize that you are asking questions that cannot be answered in " sound bites.” For starters I would suggest, to answer your first question, that you read what theologians say about the two accounts of creation. To answer the second question I suggest you read the Summa Theologica or the Summa Contra Gentiles by Thomas Aquinas ( both on line) or some of the works of St Augustine.

I will make a brief comment on each. The scriptures are not works of science, nor are they historical documents, nor are they philosophical documents. The basic truths were given by God to men who recorded the ideas given to them ( i.e. God created the universe in time and he created the first man and woman in a state of grace and moral integrity which they lost through sin, after which they were subject to sin and death, etc.) Having been inspired by these basic ideas the inspired writers were left with the task of conveying these basic truths to their fellow men in a way they could understand, by stories which would resonate with the culture they happened to be living in. Thus, two different stories of creation evolved. It is also possible that one story was a kind of philosophical rendering which would resonate with more thoughtful races like the Greeks, while the other would resonate with the common people - shepards, farmers, seamen, housewives, etc. Does that make sense?

Your second question involves the Goodness of God. You ask why did he and I ask why not ? All we know is that he did. Now when I get to heaven, I will ask. And send you a text. If that isn’t good enough you will have to read Thomas Aquinas and he will say " he did it because he is good. And that my friend is all you will ever find out about that until you walk through those pearly gates. Unless you get my text first, that is.

As far as Bruno is concerned, that is not the exact story. Nevertheless it was a tradgedy, a mortal sin on someone’s part. Now, are we going to go through the Crusades, the Reformation, the Inquisition and all that stuff again. The past is past, a lot of people went to hell, a lot of martyrs went to heaven. Let’s be sure we go to heaven.

:tiphat::hmmm:
 
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