The Council of Jamnia

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The other day I was talking to my brother, a lapsed Catholic married to a open-minded Protestant Christian, about the Deuterocanon. He is very smart and logical. I told him about the Hellenization process and how those books were not found in Hebrew. (Dead Sea Scrolls aside) I then told him about how the Council of Jamnia was a Jewish Council out of Israel cut those books. I explained how many of the prophesies of Jesus were in those and it made strong arguments to evangelize to Jews. I also told him that the council only pertained to certain Jews, and many of the Jews around the world never heard of the council and continued to use the books. I also explained that Chanukah was a story in 1 Maccabees, a Deuterocanonal book.

Here are his questions. What Jews after the Council of Jamnia still read the Deuterocanon? Also, are there Jews today that still read it? Would it be in the Talmud? Is it something like the Bible where you find it in a Catholic Bible but not a Protestant Bible? If it is, which Jews would read them, and which ones don’t?

Thank you.
 
The other day I was talking to my brother, a lapsed Catholic married to a open-minded Protestant Christian, about the Deuterocanon. He is very smart and logical. I told him about the Hellenization process and how those books were not found in Hebrew. (Dead Sea Scrolls aside) I then told him about how the Council of Jamnia was a Jewish Council out of Israel cut those books. I explained how many of the prophesies of Jesus were in those and it made strong arguments to evangelize to Jews. I also told him that the council only pertained to certain Jews, and many of the Jews around the world never heard of the council and continued to use the books. I also explained that Chanukah was a story in 1 Maccabees, a Deuterocanonal book.

Here are his questions. What Jews after the Council of Jamnia still read the Deuterocanon? Also, are there Jews today that still read it? Would it be in the Talmud? Is it something like the Bible where you find it in a Catholic Bible but not a Protestant Bible? If it is, which Jews would read them, and which ones don’t?

Thank you.
Well, first, I would say to get the facts straight. Jamnia is seen as not even a council, it was only proposed in the 1800s or so.

Here is a link…catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/07/can-protestants-rely-upon-council-of.html

It’s Not Clear that the Jamnia School Even Addressed the Canon of Scripture: It’s not just that whatever happened at Jamnia wasn’t a formal Council. It’s that it’s not clear that the Rabbinical school even addressed the question of the canon of Scripture at all. You could just as easily say you get your canon of Scripture from the Peace of Westphalia.​

Perhaps needless to say, those Jews who had become Christians weren’t a part of the Jamnia school, so this school included only those Jews who rejected Christ or were somehow unaware of Him. In fact, the Jamnia school is a product of the Pharisees and legalists. This, by the way, is why they didn’t need a Council to produce a canon. The Pharisees had long used the modern Protestant Old Testament. It was the Hellenists, the Greek-speaking Jews, who used the modern Catholic Old Testament, while the Sadducees used only the first five Books of the Bible. More on that here.

The Jamnia School Was Very Anti-Christian: While we can’t say that the Jamnia rabbinical school ever produced a Biblical canon, **we can point to a major contribution of the school. It produced an ugly prayer called the Birkat haMinim, which cursed the Christians as sectarians, and prayed to God that for these “sectarians,” “let there be no hope, and may all the evil in an instant be destroyed and all Thy enemies be cut down swiftly; and the evil ones uproot and break and destroy and humble soon in our days. Blessed art You, LORD, who breaks down enemies and humbles sinners.” **This prayer was to be prayed every Sabbath, and it forced the Jewish Christians to stop worshiping with the non-Christian Jews in synagogue.

Of course, the irony here is staggering. Despite all the talk about Galatians, it’s Protestants here who are playing the Judaizers, attempting to force Christians to follow the dictates of an insular group of vehemently anti-Christian Jewish rabbis from the first century. To put it another way, if a Christian in the first century raised the argument that we should reject the Old Testament used by Christians in favor of the one being advanced in the Jamnia school, the followers of St. Paul would denounce them for their legalism.
 
The other day I was talking to my brother, a lapsed Catholic married to a open-minded Protestant Christian, about the Deuterocanon. He is very smart and logical. I told him about the Hellenization process and how those books were not found in Hebrew. (Dead Sea Scrolls aside) I then told him about how the Council of Jamnia was a Jewish Council out of Israel cut those books. I explained how many of the prophesies of Jesus were in those and it made strong arguments to evangelize to Jews. I also told him that the council only pertained to certain Jews, and many of the Jews around the world never heard of the council and continued to use the books. I also explained that Chanukah was a story in 1 Maccabees, a Deuterocanonal book.

Here are his questions. What Jews after the Council of Jamnia still read the Deuterocanon? Also, are there Jews today that still read it? Would it be in the Talmud? Is it something like the Bible where you find it in a Catholic Bible but not a Protestant Bible? If it is, which Jews would read them, and which ones don’t?

Thank you.
The “Council of Jamnia” never happened–this idea was purely a figment of Heinrich Graetz’s lively 19th century imagination and his misreading of the Babylonian Talmud. Jews don’t have councils to decide doctrinal matters and even if they did, one group of rabbis’ decision from a meeting in Yavneh wouldn’t be binding on other Jews in any event. Plus many Jewish scholars dismiss the historicity of the underlying discussion in the Talmud to begin with.

Sounds as though you’ve given your brother a great deal of misinformation. I hope you will correct him.
 
Well, first, I would say to get the facts straight. Jamnia is seen as not even a council, it was only proposed in the 1800s or so.

Here is a link…catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/07/can-protestants-rely-upon-council-of.html

It’s Not Clear that the Jamnia School Even Addressed the Canon of Scripture: It’s not just that whatever happened at Jamnia wasn’t a formal Council. It’s that it’s not clear that the Rabbinical school even addressed the question of the canon of Scripture at all. You could just as easily say you get your canon of Scripture from the Peace of Westphalia.​

Perhaps needless to say, those Jews who had become Christians weren’t a part of the Jamnia school, so this school included only those Jews who rejected Christ or were somehow unaware of Him. In fact, the Jamnia school is a product of the Pharisees and legalists. This, by the way, is why they didn’t need a Council to produce a canon. The Pharisees had long used the modern Protestant Old Testament. It was the Hellenists, the Greek-speaking Jews, who used the modern Catholic Old Testament, while the Sadducees used only the first five Books of the Bible. More on that here.

The Jamnia School Was Very Anti-Christian: While we can’t say that the Jamnia rabbinical school ever produced a Biblical canon, **we can point to a major contribution of the school. It produced an ugly prayer called the Birkat haMinim, which cursed the Christians as sectarians, and prayed to God that for these “sectarians,” “let there be no hope, and may all the evil in an instant be destroyed and all Thy enemies be cut down swiftly; and the evil ones uproot and break and destroy and humble soon in our days. Blessed art You, LORD, who breaks down enemies and humbles sinners.” **This prayer was to be prayed every Sabbath, and it forced the Jewish Christians to stop worshiping with the non-Christian Jews in synagogue.

Of course, the irony here is staggering. Despite all the talk about Galatians, it’s Protestants here who are playing the Judaizers, attempting to force Christians to follow the dictates of an insular group of vehemently anti-Christian Jewish rabbis from the first century. To put it another way, if a Christian in the first century raised the argument that we should reject the Old Testament used by Christians in favor of the one being advanced in the Jamnia school, the followers of St. Paul would denounce them for their legalism.
Briliant article you just cited. It was a very interesting point where it compared the Protestants to the Judiazers. I am still left with one question. If the Council of Jamnia never happened, (or at the least the text is lost) then where would the Deutrocanon be found in Judism? If I just went to the nearby Reform temple, would it be in the Talmud? How about Orthodox? Were the teachings of the Jamnia school lost with the school?

BTW, there is a level of intelectual honesty between my brother and I. I went out looking because I saw there were some holes in my knowlege on the topic, and I told him I was telling the story as I knew it. The reason I came here was to get linked to some articles that would clarify the issue, so that I can explain the issue more fully.

Oh, do any of you know where I can find a secular article stating that there is no evidence of there being such a council?
 
If If I just went to the nearby Reform temple, would it be in the Talmud? How about Orthodox?
No, the Talmud is a combination of oral laws, rabbinic legal opinions and debates (Mishnah) and commentaries and analyses of those laws (Gemara).

You do find Sirach cited in the Talmud in a number of places though (I don’t know about the other books). Sirach, aka Ben Sira, is a very exceptional case: while it was eventually never considered inspired Scripture in Rabbinic Judaism, it was apparently still known enough among many circles to the point that the Talmudic rabbis could still cite it, and an anonymous medieval Jewish author could still attribute his work to Jesus ben Sirach. In fact, some elements of Jewish liturgy are influenced by the book.
Oh, do any of you know where I can find a secular article stating that there is no evidence of there being such a council?
I don’t know if this counts as ‘secular’, but this rather-lengthy piece might help.
 
Oh, do any of you know where I can find a secular article stating that there is no evidence of there being such a council?
You can begin with Wikipedia, if you find it helpful. The first half of the article is fairly good; the second half (Developments Attributed to Jamnia) not so much so. But for what it’s worth:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia

Better yet would simply be to go to the source in the Talmud itself that people have usually cited as the basis for the “Council of Jamnia”: Meggilah 7a and Gittin 56a,b. You’ll then see for yourself that there’s not much here on which to build such an elaborate theory.

(The Talmud in English is most easily accessible on halakhah.com, imo.)
 
then where would the Deutrocanon be found in Judism?
The deuterocanonical texts would simply be considered part of the very large body of extant Jewish literature from antiquity but which was not included in the Hebrew Bible. Many Jewish scholars would also include the works of the New Testament in that category.
 
I also explained that Chanukah was a story in 1 Maccabees, a Deuterocanonal book.
There’s really not much at all about Hannukah in either of the Books of Maccabees, at least if you’re thinking about the miracle of the oil and the festival of lights, etc. The story of Hannukah comes from Josephus (Antiquities XII and the Talmud (Shabbat 21).
 
It is my understanding that Ethiopian Jews include most but not all of the deuterocanonical books in their Bible as well as some other books not contained in the Catholic Old Testament. (source)
 
There’s really not much at all about Hannukah in either of the Books of Maccabees, at least if you’re thinking about the miracle of the oil and the festival of lights, etc. The story of Hannukah comes from Josephus (Antiquities XII and the Talmud (Shabbat 21).
You’re right that many of the modern Jewish practices descend from extra-Scriptural sources (particularly the Talmud). But the original holiday tradition, celebrating the the Festival of Dedication, is found in 1 and 2 Maccabees. And it’s this (not the later traditions) that Christ is depicted as celebrating in John 10:22-23.
 
You’re right that many of the modern Jewish practices descend from extra-Scriptural sources (particularly the Talmud). But the original holiday tradition, celebrating the the Festival of Dedication, is found in 1 and 2 Maccabees. And it’s this (not the later traditions) that Christ is depicted as celebrating in John 10:22-23.
Since Hannukah is not a pilgrimage festival, Jesus is more than likely celebrating Sukkot, the commemoration of the dedication of the first temple, which is a mandated pilgrimage festival in Israelite law. See 1Kings 8 and 2Chr 7 for the connection. Also refer to the early church’s counterpart celebration of Sukkot/dedication (Encanaea in Greek) in the travelogue of Egeria.
 
Since Hannukah is not a pilgrimage festival, Jesus is more than likely celebrating Sukkot, the commemoration of the dedication of the first temple, which is a mandated pilgrimage festival in Israelite law. See 1Kings 8 and 2Chr 7 for the connection. Also refer to the early church’s counterpart celebration of Sukkot/dedication (Encanaea in Greek) in the travelogue of Egeria.
No. First of all, Sukkot is the Festival of Tabernacles, described in John 7. Second of all, Sukkot is in September or October, while John specifies that this is the Festival of Dedication in winter. Even Protestant Bibles like the NIV (both the new and 1984 version) note that this is Chanukkah in the footnotes.
 
No. First of all, Sukkot is the Festival of Tabernacles, described in John 7. Second of all, Sukkot is in September or October, while John specifies that this is the Festival of Dedication in winter. Even Protestant Bibles like the NIV (both the new and 1984 version) note that this is Chanukkah in the footnotes.
The translated English “winter” from Greek actually means “rainy season” which begins in fall in Mediterranean climate. John’s point is highly symbolic—the Second Temple is doomed for destruction and replacement by Jesus’ body. Note for example, the prominence of the temple cleansing story in John’s gospel. Note the early church’s celebration of the dedication of the first temple versus the re-dedication of the second.
 
No, the Talmud is a combination of oral laws, rabbinic legal opinions and debates (Mishnah) and commentaries and analyses of those laws (Gemara).
So, correct me if I am mistaken, the Talmud is all oral? That confuses me because when I think of oral tradition, I don’t think that it would be written down. Where would that make books like Ruth or Isaiah land? I was under the impression that they were in the talmud.
 
The translated English “winter” from Greek actually means “rainy season” which begins in fall in Mediterranean climate. John’s point is highly symbolic—the Second Temple is doomed for destruction and replacement by Jesus’ body. Note for example, the prominence of the temple cleansing story in John’s gospel. Note the early church’s celebration of the dedication of the first temple versus the re-dedication of the second.
John 6 is at the Passover one year before the Last Supper. John 7 is at Sikkot, which John calls the Festival of Booths. John 10 is at Channukah, which John calls the Festival of Dedication. The Passion starts on the following Passover.

So as you can see, it doesn’t make sense to read John 10 as a reference to Sukkot. And to my knowledge, no credible NT scholar does so. This isn’t even a controversial point. The Festival of Dedication and the Festival of Booths aren’t the same holiday, and aren’t treated as such.
 
So, correct me if I am mistaken, the Talmud is all oral? That confuses me because when I think of oral tradition, I don’t think that it would be written down. Where would that make books like Ruth or Isaiah land? I was under the impression that they were in the talmud.
Jewish scholarship was originally transmitted by word of mouth, handed down from teacher to student. Rabbis discussed about, expounded on and debated concerning the Scriptures without the benefit of the written word other than the books themselves, though some may have took private notes for use in areas such as court decisions. There was also apparently a feeling at the time that such scholarly learning should continue to be passed by word of mouth and not be written down: after all, proponents say, when Moses received the Law in Sinai, its explanation was also conveyed to him orally - and no man should dare break that chain, which they claim stretches across the centuries.

The situation, however, changed at the destruction of Jerusalem and with it, the Temple, and the consequent upheaval of social and legal norms. Whereas up to now Judaism was far from being a singular, monolithic entity; on the contrary there was a huge diversity within Jewish thought and practice - that some scholars even choose to speak of them collectively as ‘Judaisms’ in the plural - many of these other forms of Judaism did not survive the carnage (the Sadducees for one), leaving only the descendant of the Pharisaic school, rabbinic Judaism, the sole survivor.

Without a Temple to serve as the center of teaching and study and living in a land without at least partial autonomy, there was a huge uncertainty among the rabbis about the direction Jews will take from then on, and there was a flurry of legal discourse, such that the old system of oral transmission could not be maintained. It is during this period that rabbinic discourse began to be written down. By around AD 200, the Mishnah, a redaction of rabbinic oral law in writing, was completed. Later further discussions and comments about said oral teaching were also eventually written down as the Gemara. Taken together, these two elements were edited together into the Talmud.

I think you’re thinking about the word Tanakh, the Hebrew term for the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible as a whole. The word is an acronym: tanakh is taken from Torah (the Law; i.e. the Pentateuch), Nevi’im (the Prophets), and Ketuvim (the Writings; i.e. books which do not fit into the two categories above).

Here is how the books are commonly categorized today among Jews:

Torah

1.) Genesis
2.) Exodus
3.) Leviticus
4.) Numbers
5.) Deuteronomy

Nevi’im (The Prophets)

6.) Joshua
7.) Judges
8.) 1 and 2 Samuel (counted as one book)
9.) 1 and 2 Kings (counted as one book)
10.) Isaiah
11.) Jeremiah
12.) Ezekiel
13.) The Twelve Prophets (Hosea to Malachi; counted as one book)

Ketuvim (The Writings)

The Books of Truth (Sifrei Emet)

14.) Psalms
15.) Proverbs
16.) Job

The Five Scrolls (Chamesh Megillot)
17.) Song of Songs
18.) Ruth
19.) Lamentations
20.) Ecclesiastes
21.) Esther

Other books

22.) Daniel
23.) Ezra-Nehemiah (counted as one book)
24.) 1 and 2 Chronicles (counted as one book)​
 
John 6 is at the Passover one year before the Last Supper. John 7 is at Sikkot, which John calls the Festival of Booths. John 10 is at Channukah, which John calls the Festival of Dedication. The Passion starts on the following Passover.

So as you can see, it doesn’t make sense to read John 10 as a reference to Sukkot. And to my knowledge, no credible NT scholar does so. This isn’t even a controversial point. The Festival of Dedication and the Festival of Booths aren’t the same holiday, and aren’t treated as such.
Here’s the chronology of John. All in all, he seems to write of a two-year period, punctuated by three Passovers:

Late March-late April (Spring): First Passover (2:13)
??:feast of the Judaeans” (5:1)

Late March-late April (Spring): Second Passover (6:4)
Late September-late October (Autumn): Booths (7:1ff.)
??:Dedication” (10:22ff.)

Late March-late April (Spring): Third Passover (11:55ff.)

Assuming that the “Dedication” is Hannukah (late November-late December), the narrative flow is actually quite smooth. On the other hand, if we assume that the Dedication feast of chapter 10 is Sukkot, there is the question: is it the same festival as in chapter 7, or a different one?
 
So, correct me if I am mistaken, the Talmud is all oral? That confuses me because when I think of oral tradition, I don’t think that it would be written down. Where would that make books like Ruth or Isaiah land? I was under the impression that they were in the talmud.
No the oral tradition is the Chalakhah which is what Christ is referring to when He says “You have heard it said… but I say…” He is not correcting the Law He is correcting the traditions. The Talmud is a collection of the writings of the Rabbis as well as certain arguments for or against questions of the Law which are the Mishnah or the Midrash.

God Bless
 
The other day I was talking to my brother, a lapsed Catholic married to a open-minded Protestant Christian, about the Deuterocanon. He is very smart and logical. I told him about the Hellenization process and how those books were not found in Hebrew. (Dead Sea Scrolls aside) I then told him about how the Council of Jamnia was a Jewish Council out of Israel cut those books. I explained how many of the prophesies of Jesus were in those and it made strong arguments to evangelize to Jews. I also told him that the council only pertained to certain Jews, and many of the Jews around the world never heard of the council and continued to use the books. I also explained that Chanukah was a story in 1 Maccabees, a Deuterocanonal book.

Here are his questions. What Jews after the Council of Jamnia still read the Deuterocanon? Also, are there Jews today that still read it? Would it be in the Talmud? Is it something like the Bible where you find it in a Catholic Bible but not a Protestant Bible? If it is, which Jews would read them, and which ones don’t?

Thank you.
There was a “council” of sorts at Jamnia at which a certain sect of Palestinian Jews decided which books they would accept as authentic as opposed to the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT) but this was in no way binding as there is no organized body of leadership within the Jewish community.

However out of this tradition did arise the Masorites who gave us the Masoritic Texts which are the Hebrew translation plus vowel points, which is all fine and good except that they corrupted the text deliberately by glossing over the more definitive Messianic Verses which were obviously fulfilled by Christ, such as Psalm 22. They translate “They have pierced my hands and feet” as “They have done violence as lions” by changing the vowels.

So the question is who do we believe?

The thing is the Septuagint (LXX) was translated around 150BC by Jewish scholars into the Greek so that Jews in the Diaspora who could no longer read Hebrew could have a text they could understand because pretty much every one could read Greek. The oldest copy we have pf these texts comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls which dates to around 100BC including an intact scroll of Isaiah which proves that texts such as Isaiah 53 were not post Christian addendums as some critics had claimed but were in fact the writings which preceded Christ and so speak strongly of the authenticity of His ministry.

The Masoritic Texts (MT) were translated around 900AD and the oldest copy we have of them dates to around 1000AD. Furthermore the commentary of these texts attempts to make all the Messianic texts about the whole people of Israel instead of one person which a plain reading clearly shows they are not, but the MT’s attempt to gloss this to read the way they want.

IOW there is no doubt the MT is a corrupted text but is still used because reading Hebrew is not without merit, but the glosses are fixed by referring to the LXX. Even Augustine in writing On Teaching Christianity commented that the Jewish texts of his day, which preceded the MT’s by at least 500 years, were corrupted and the Greek was to be preferred. Of course Augustine could read neither Greek nor Hebrew so guess who told him this?

Jerome

God Bless
 
Here is how the books are commonly categorized today among Jews:

Torah

1.) Genesis
2.) Exodus
3.) Leviticus
4.) Numbers
5.) Deuteronomy

Nevi’im (The Prophets)

6.) Joshua
7.) Judges
8.) 1 and 2 Samuel (counted as one book)
9.) 1 and 2 Kings (counted as one book)
10.) Isaiah
11.) Jeremiah
12.) Ezekiel
13.) The Twelve Prophets (Hosea to Malachi; counted as one book)

Ketuvim (The Writings)

The Books of Truth (Sifrei Emet)
14.) Psalms
15.) Proverbs
16.) Job

The Five Scrolls (Chamesh Megillot)
17.) Song of Songs
18.) Ruth
19.) Lamentations
20.) Ecclesiastes
21.) Esther

Other books

22.) Daniel
23.) Ezra-Nehemiah (counted as one book)
24.) 1 and 2 Chronicles (counted as one book)​
Thanks for the info. I noticed on your list that the Deutrocanon is not included. Is this because they are not considered mainstream texts, you forgot to include that part of the list, you are assuming that I would know that they were there so it is unecessary to include the list, or a possibility that I am not thinking of?
 
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