The Creation Account Contrary to LDS Account?

[mercytruth]

I think we can assume from holy scriptures that spiritual beings such as the angelic host of God’s heaven were created before the physical universe of the stars, planets, the earth and moon, biological life on earth, and lastly, human beings.

Zechariah 12:1 “The burden of the word of the Lord upon Israel. Thus saith the Lord, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundations of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man in him”****

To think that part of man (such as his individual spirit) was created before the physical universe, and then God places this part of man (his individual spirit) in the soul and body of Adam when he was created, and in the rest of humanity when they are conceived is incredulous.

It is like saying God sends an individual angel of heaven down to everyone who is born into this earth.

Hebrews 1:7 "He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers flames of fire"

Psalm 8:5-6 "What is man that you are mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visit him? Thou hast made him a little less than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor."

John 3:13 "And no man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven."

Frankly, I believe it is blasphemy to think that any human spirit has descended from heaven and has returned from whence it came.

The only begotten of the Father was sent from heaven to this earth to save us from sin and death. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and He is the only one to come down from heaven. Our Lord Jesus Christ suffered and died for our sins and rose again the third day.

The only ones to ascend to heaven subsequent to the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ are the true saints of our Lord Jesus Christ who have denied themselves, taken up their crosses daily, and have been willing to lose their lives for the sake of Jesus Christ

To say that the individual spirits of man pre-exist, and are sent to this earth as beings to be born with body and soul is almost equivalent to creating other ‘Christs’.

 

[Crux_Sacra]

I’m not familiar with LDS teachings about creation or the nature of man.

Are you saying that the LDS belief is that God puts an already-existing soul into a human shell at its creation? That would go against the Christian teaching that man is made up of body and soul together, and that the soul is created at conception. (CCC362-368)

Any LDS/Mormons here who want to explain their beliefs on this?

 

[ParkerD]

I’m not familiar with LDS teachings about creation or the nature of man.

Are you saying that the LDS belief is that God puts an already-existing soul into a human shell at its creation? That would go against the Christian teaching that man is made up of body and soul together, and that the soul is created at conception. (CCC362-368)

Any LDS/Mormons here who want to explain their beliefs on this?

Crux_Sacra,

The LDS belief doesn’t describe a human body as a “human shell”, ever.

Here is some background:

I suspect that “mercytruth” was seeing that the thread about pre-mortal existence had reached over 1,000 posts, and that it was going to end soon, so to give you some background on that conversation, here are a couple of posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercytruth
I don’t know why you insist on calling the Hebrew word, ‘nephesh’ as ‘being’, but it is translated as soul in most places in scripture. The Greek equivalent is ‘psuche’, or psyche.

mercytruth,

Here is a website that provides transliteration from Hebrew to English or from Greek to English, which is where I looked up that information:

interlinearbible.org/

Quote:
The Hebrew for the ‘spirit’ within man is ‘ruach’, and the Greek equivalent is ‘pneuma’

Agreed.

Quote:
And you are saying that the LDS teaches that the ‘ruach,’ or ‘pneuma’, or ‘spirit’ of man was created, but was created before his earthly body and soul are created of which Gen.2:7 speaks.

Eventhough Zechariah 12:1 states clearly that God formed the spirit of man within him. This ‘man’ is translated from the Hebrew word ‘adam’. This scripture seems to clearly indicate that God formed our spirit within our earthly body and not outside our earthly body.

Yes, that is what I am saying.

If one looks at all the uses in the Bible of the words “form” or “formed”, those words do not mean “made from nothing”. Often it is evident right in the text that there was a preceding unorganized entity which God used to “form”.

Especially is this true of the creation of man, Adam.

Here is an example:

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God “formed” the spirit which is within man. This does not have to mean that at the same time the body was “formed”, the spirit was “formed”. It can just as well mean God “formed” both the spirit, in its time, and the body, in its time.

Quote:
And you are saying that the LDS teaches that there is some sort of ‘memory veil’ over the spirit so that we can not remember anything before we became body and soul on earth.

Yes, but it appears likely based on how babies respond to the people around them and how much light and wonder is conveyed in their eyes, that the “memory veil” isn’t necessarily automatic right in the womb or right at the moment of birth. It will be interesting to find out all about this someday.

Quote:
That ‘memory veil’ is very convenient for explaining the pre-existent spirit prior to coming to this earth as a created human being of body and soul.

As I noted to “1voice”, one can see the precedent in the words of Luke about Jesus having “increased in wisdom”, meaning that when He was a young child He didn’t bring His full memory of His pre-mortal life and His perfect knowledge and wisdom with Him from that pre-mortal life. He grew in wisdom on earth, and regained perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge.

We take the example of Jesus having increased in wisdom as an example of what we should do–increase in wisdom–which is one of the reasons we are here on this earth. Ours is a different purpose than Jesus had, since we didn’t have perfect wisdom or perfect knowledge in pre-mortal life, whereas He did.

 

[mercytruth]

Crux_Sacra,

According to ParkerD who identifies himself as a member of LDS church when asked about Zech.12:1 in the other thread, he said that the ‘spirit’ that God forms in man is created before our body and soul is formed. Therefore, according to LDS teaching the spirit of a human being pre-exists in heaven, or somewhere else before we as human beings of body and soul are born into this earth.

I am willing to stand corrected, and apologize if I have misconstrued LDS teaching, but this is what ParkerD specifically said in response to my question regarding Zech 12:1:
Thus saith the Lord, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundations of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man in him"

God’s peace to you and to ParkerD

My apologies to both of you for the redundancy, this was composed as Parker was responding to your query.

 

[ParkerD]

…
Any LDS/Mormons here who want to explain their beliefs on this?

Crux_Sacra,

Here is another part of the previous conversation, which will help answer your questions:

mercytruth,

The Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:7 that has been translated as either “soul” or “being” has the meaning of “being”, as follows:

לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ
being

Psalms 51:10 uses a word for “spirit” which is:

וְר֥וּחַ
spirit

#1022
Yesterday, 11:14 pm
ParkerD
Regular Member

Join Date: March 17, 2009
Location: Utah
Posts: 5,672
Religion: LDS Church
Re: Scriptural evidence for “pre-mortal existence”. Is there any?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
For by him were all things created that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible …(Coloss:1:l6)

LDS teaching supports the idea that mans individual spirit/being has always existed in some form … just as God’s spirit has always existed. How does this belief reconcile with the above scripture?

1voice,

The text doesn’t say “created from nothing”, nor does any Biblical text say that about creation.

The Latter-day Saint belief is that each spirit was created by God, and that there was an entity used in the creation of each spirit that was what has come to be called an “intelligence” which is not the same entity as a “spirit”. We don’t know much about it at all–just that it had individuality in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice

… And how does LDS belief of pre mortal existence deal with this verse:

Zechariah 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

and this:
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

1voice,

The concept of being a spirit in pre-mortal life doesn’t mean we weren’t “created” by God. We were indeed “formed” by God to be spirits, and each spirit is joined with a body and thus the result is “formeth the spirit of man within him.”

The breath of the Almighty certainly gives all of us life.

 

[SpeSalvi]

In short, yes, the LDS church believes that our spirits were created in heaven; our spirits were the “angels” that fought the war in heaven, and that both Jesus and Satan were our brothers while we were in heaven. It, in the LDS church, is called the “Pre-Mortal Existence”. The LDS religion doesn’t believe in angels as separate creations apart from us; all angels are people that either haven’t had bodies yet or people that have died before us.

I was actually flabbergasted as a young adult when I found out that other Christians believe the spirit did NOT exist before being put into the body. It was such a foreign idea that an actual SOUL came into being at conception.

 

[mercytruth]

SpeSalvi,

Thank you for sharing the understanding that you had when you were a member of LDS.
Had you been a member of LDS since childhood, and was it difficult for you to extricate yourself from the LDS?

God’s peace, truth and grace to all who are struggling with their spiritual heritages.

 

[ParkerD]

…
It is like saying God sends an individual angel of heaven down to everyone who is born into this earth.

Hebrews 1:7 "He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers flames of fire"

Psalm 8:5-6 "What is man that you are mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visit him? Thou hast made him a little less than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor."

John 3:13 "And no man has ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven."

…

mercytruth,

Your initial introduction to this topic showed a predisposition to pass judgment without very much understanding of the subject.

I suggest you learn Hebrew and then read Psalm 8:5-6 in the Hebrew, in which case you will find that the word for “angel” is not contained in those verses, at all.

The meaning of the part you underlined would have been more correctly rendered, as it is in several recent translations into English including NASB, “a little lower than God”.

John 3:13 is not saying that there were no “spirits” in heaven. The word “man” does not mean that part of man which is his spirit.

 

[mercytruth]

Parker,

I may have been too strong with the word, blasphemy, but if SpeSalvi is stating the truth, then I think not.

In the Septuagint version of Ps.8:5-6 the word is angelos, angel. In the Hebrew, you are correct it is elohim, or god. There are scriptural references to the angels over nations being referred to as elohim.

The important distinction is whether anyone has come down from heaven besides the Son of God, God the Word made flesh, who dwelt among us as our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you contend that pre-existent created spirits are sent to this earth into human beings that is, before Adam was created, and before we are born, then you are speaking something very foreign to the holy scriptures.

 

[Crux_Sacra]

Wow…just…wow.

Where to begin?

ParkerD, no offense, but it sounds to me like what you are proposing supports the “shell” concept. An empty thing is “ensouled” upon its creation with a pre-existing spirit. That’s two separate things, with one placed inside the other. That’s not a Christian belief.

If one looks at all the uses in the Bible of the words “form” or “formed”, those words do not mean “made from nothing”. Often it is evident right in the text that there was a preceding unorganized entity which God used to “form”.

ParkerD, can you please provide scholarly sources apart from Scripture for this which are mutually accepted by both sides of the argument? And can you please provide Scriptural support for the claim that God used a “preceding unorganized entity” which is mutually accepted by both sides of the argument?

This “proto-soul” concept is news to me. Is this referring to what SpeSalvi wrote about? I ask because, mankind is in need of and can have redemption, and if angels are the pre-existing souls, then the devil and his fallen angels are also, and it follows that they, too can be redeemed…which they cannot. The belief that angels are people before being “ensouled” into a body or that they are people who have died would not only be mistaken but actually satanic.

The concept of being a spirit in pre-mortal life doesn’t mean we weren’t “created” by God. We were indeed “formed” by God to be spirits, and each spirit is joined with a body and thus the result is “formeth the spirit of man within him.”

If we were meant to be spirits, why would God bother with making a body? What would be the point? To carry the line of logic further, are you saying then that Jesus, who was both divine and human, was a spirit installed in a body? To say that would be to deny his divinity, and in fact to call the Word of Creation a creature. Jesus is in fact the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages…begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father…and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. Jesus was both divine and human. Saying that Jesus, who became man, was separate in divinity and humanity is to deny the Incarnation. Doesn’t matter whether you separate divinity from humanity (God in a bodily shell) or soul from body and blood (spirit in a bodily shell), it’s a direct attack on Jesus.

Edited to say “bodily shell” instead of “human shell” for clarity.

 

[ParkerD]

Wow…just…wow.

Where to begin?

ParkerD, no offense, but it sounds to me like what you are proposing supports the “shell” concept. An empty thing is “ensouled” upon its creation with a pre-existing spirit…

Crux_Sacra,

I didn’t quote your entire post because I very much disagree with some of the wording, and because I think it would make more sense from the standpoint of my time that you would first read at least the last five pages of the “pre-mortal existence” thread so that I won’t have to repeat a lot of that conversation here, again.

The body itself is not a “shell”. It is so far much more than a “shell” that I think it goes without saying. It is a “temple”, the creation of God, miraculous, marvelous, wondrous, far more intricate than anyone has yet been able to conceive of through study of its wonders.

 

[SpeSalvi]

SpeSalvi,

Thank you for sharing the understanding that you had when you were a member of LDS.
Had you been a member of LDS since childhood, and was it difficult for you to extricate yourself from the LDS?

God’s peace, truth and grace to all who are struggling with their spiritual heritages.

No problem- I’ve spent the last few years comparing the beliefs of the two denominations (The LDS church and the Catholic Church), and I certainly don’t mind sharing my discoveries here. I was born and raised LDS by parents that were born and raised LDS as well.
I’m currently waiting on the official paperwork stating that my records have been removed from the LDS church, which I had previously hesitated to do because I didn’t want to upset my parents. However, my inaction to do so has just given them the false hope that my conversion to the Catholic Faith is just a phase, so I felt it was my moral duty to get my records removed once and for all.
Having a wholly LDS family has made leaving the LDS church fairly difficult on an emotional level- I’ve had to deal with disappointing my parents and grandparents as well as being disincluded in any family event that has to do with the LDS church, which makes things difficult because my family’s societal culture is so LDS-centric that it means I’m not invited to quite a few things.
On a different level, I’ve always let the bishopric and missionaries in the ward my records are located in know that they’re welcome to our house, but that I’m not a member of the LDS church and haven’t been for a year. They’ve tried to reach out to me a few times, but on hearing that I’ve fully converted to Catholicism they can’t get out the door fast enough.

All my experiences that I share come from being raised in the LDS church and most of the things I talk about are things that have been steadily reiterated from the time I was 4 to the time that I left the LDS church a year ago. I’m no apologist or theologian, but I faithfully attended church my whole life, including all 4 years of early morning seminary during high school. I definitely believe I have a good grasp of the LDS belief system (outside of what happens beyond baptisms for the dead in the Temple. I was never “endowed” and did not have an LDS temple marriage so anything I speak about concerning that is what I’ve been taught on the subject, not what I’ve experienced).

 

[mercytruth]

SpeSalvi,

Thank you so much for your willingness to share with us your most difficult decision in leaving the LDS. Anyone with sensitivity would not want to willingly hurt their parents, or grandparents. The cross you are bearing is for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think I can speak for many out there who hope and pray for God’s blessing and consolations for you.

His peace always.

 

[SpeSalvi]

To carry the line of logic further, are you saying then that Jesus, who was both divine and human, was a spirit installed in a body? To say that would be to deny his divinity, and in fact to call the Word of Creation a creature. Jesus is in fact the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages…begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father…and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. Jesus was both divine and human. Saying that Jesus, who became man, was separate in divinity and humanity is to deny the Incarnation. Doesn’t matter whether you separate divinity from humanity (God in a bodily shell) or soul from body and blood (spirit in a bodily shell), it’s a direct attack on Jesus.

The LDS view of Jesus is VERY, very different from the typical Christian view of Jesus.

Since Parker didn’t want to address the LDS belief regarding this, I will:

According to the LDS church, Jesus was a spirit in the Pre-mortal existence with the rest of us. He was pretty much just our spiritual brother (which you’ll hear a lot of in the LDS world; He’s considered the Savior, but also considered our “Big Brother”).
Something from the website LDS.org that outlines it as succinctly as possible:

Premortal Life

Before we were born on the earth, we lived in the presence of our Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. In this premortal existence, we attended a council with Heavenly Father’s other spirit children. At that council, Heavenly Father presented His great plan of happiness (see Abraham 3:22-26).

In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27). Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality (see Moses 4:4; Abraham 3:27-28).

Link just in case you wanted to read the entire entry: lds.org/study/topics/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng&query=premortal+existence

 

[Crux_Sacra]

ParkerD,
The LDS and the Catholic Church use very specific terminology in apologetics. This must be done in order to get across the specific meaning so there is no misunderstanding, even if the other party disagrees. If you do not like the word “shell”, you may substitute for it the word “vessel” or some other suitable term. Whichever is used, the concept remains in your proposal of an empty thing filled with something else.

According to the Catholic Church, ‘The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit.’ (CCC 364)

Truthfully, I should not even use the terms “human shell” or “bodily shell” because they are probably incorrect, too, but I simply do not know what to call flesh which is not in union with a soul. The fact remains however, that without being in union with a soul it is not human.

CCC 365 goes on to say, ‘The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.’

Angels and human spirits are two different things, and if the web page SpeSalvi provided is any indication, their are some serious flaws in the theology displayed. Foremost among them is the belief that there is any more than one Son of God. Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God. Lucifer is an angel, and even if he belonged to the highest Choir, he is still not a son of God. In order for one to be the Son, he must be begotten of the Father. Lucifer was made, not begotten. Jesus Christ was begotten, not made. Through Jesus Christ all things were made, and that means Lucifer as well. To call them spirit brothers is to lower Jesus to the level of angel (Arianism) or elevate Lucifer to the level of God (Satanism). Neither is correct. Second, Jesus Christ did not have to progress toward eternal life because he is already eternal since he is God. Jesus Christ came so that we might have eternal life. The Gospel of John roundly trounces these concepts.

Thirdly, this web page says something very strange about how angels can receive physical bodies but not demons. First, angels are not human souls, but even so, the angels who did not rebel did not sin, and therefore do not need to be redeemed. Second, not being human and not having sinned, angels are not destined to die. Why would God allow an angel to become human and seek redemption and eternal life if angels do not need redemption or eternal life? Third, fallen angels cannot be redeemed anyway, their punishment is eternal, hence the eternal fire meant for them. Fourth, if an angel is in possession of a human body, it’s called possession. In full-blown demonic possession, a person invites the demon in, and the demon takes over. How could it if it were prevented by God from receiving a body? And Scripture is very clear that fallen angels possess people and Christ casts them out.

I don’t ask these things to insult people. I just see severe flaws in the logic displayed. If the Mormon books from which these passages come say these things, then they contradict Scripture, and Scripture is infallible.

Thank you, SpeSalvi, for the weblink. Very enlightening stuff there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormon children are taught this concept by using the analogy of a glove. The glove being the body and the hand being pre-existing spirit that fits inside. I taught this lesson myself to five year olds, many years ago.

It took me the longest time to catch on, and realize that this is a unique Mormon teaching, not found anywhere in Christianity.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD,
The LDS and the Catholic Church use very specific terminology in apologetics. This must be done in order to get across the specific meaning so there is no misunderstanding, even if the other party disagrees. If you do not like the word “shell”, you may substitute for it the word “vessel” or some other suitable term. Whichever is used, the concept remains in your proposal of an empty thing filled with something else.

According to the Catholic Church, ‘The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit.’

Truthfully, I should not even use the terms “human shell” or “bodily shell” because they are probably incorrect, too, but I simply do not know what to call flesh which is not in union with a soul. The fact remains however, that without being in union with a soul it is not human.

CCC 365 goes on to say, ‘The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.’

Angels and human spirits are two different things, and if the web page SpeSalvi provided is any indication, their are some serious flaws in the theology displayed. Foremost among them is the belief that there is any more than one Son of God. Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God. Lucifer is an angel, and even if he belonged to the highest Choir, he is still not a son of God. In order for one to be the Son, he must be begotten of the Father. Lucifer was made, not begotten. Jesus Christ was begotten, not made. Through Jesus Christ all things were made, and that means Lucifer as well. To call them spirit brothers is to lower Jesus to the level of angel (Arianism) or elevate Lucifer to the level of God (Satanism). Neither is correct. Second, Jesus Christ did not have to progress toward eternal life because he is already eternal since he is God. Jesus Christ came so that we might have eternal life. The Gospel of John roundly trounces these concepts.

Thirdly, this web page says something very strange about how angels can receive physical bodies but not demons. First, angels are not human souls, but even so, the angels who did not rebel did not sin, and therefore do not need to be redeemed. Second, not being human and not having sinned, angels are not destined to die. Why would God allow an angel to become human and seek redemption and eternal life if angels do not need redemption or eternal life? Third, fallen angels cannot be redeemed anyway, their punishment is eternal, hence the eternal fire meant for them. Fourth, if an angel is in possession of a human body, it’s called possession. In full-blown demonic possession, a person invites the demon in, and the demon takes over. How could it if it were prevented by God from receiving a body? And Scripture is very clear that fallen angels possess people and Christ casts them out.

…

Crux_Sacra,

I don’t see the need to belabor the issue about the human body, the soul (which means the body animated by the spirit placed in it by God), and their creation. I agree that Jesus didn’t have to “progress” to become God with us, the Son of God with all power in heaven and earth. But He did “increase in wisdom” as a child.

I am fine with your belief that Christ “made” Lucifer, although I disagree but I think it makes a similar point that Christ is pre-eminent in eternity, and indeed is the Only Begotten Son.

I don’t refer in any of my thinking to a belief that Lucifer was a son of God who rebelled. The scriptures teach that he was an angel, a son of the morning, who rebelled against God and sought to deceive other angels and they also rebelled and were cast out of heaven, to the earth.

Here is an important verse using the term “angel” that refers to the “destroying angels” who were the final plague of the ten plagues suffered by the Egyptians:

Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Jesus cast out “evil spirits”, it is true. The terms “evil angels” and “evil spirits” can be viewed as synonymous.

If there is such a thing as “evil spirits”, which there is, then with all the scriptures about “spirits” such as the teachings of Paul (“try the spirits, whether they be of God”)
there is just as much a plausible reason to believe that there are “good spirits”.

There is no Biblical source for the entire set of beliefs that are advanced about angels not having the possibility of coming to this earth later from having been a spirit in the pre-mortal life where they received a calling from God to come to earth with a message from Him.

So, the Latter-day Saint belief that angels are a select few spirits sent to earth with a message from God during their time in pre-mortal life before they come to earth and receive a physical body, is not inconsistent with the Bible, but I certainly agree that it is inconsistent with Catholic beliefs about angels.

Again, a good spirit is placed into the body of each person born into this world. This is not “demonic”. When an evil spirit “possesses” a person’s body and mind, that means that “evil spirit” was one of the fallen angels and has intruded the body or mind of the person, but that doesn’t mean they don’t also have their own spirit. The evil spirit would then be trying to “possess” a body by means of force, and the person’s own “good spirit” will hopefully be able to overcome the adversity of the evil spirit.

 

[Crux_Sacra]

ParkerD,

Thank you for your responses.

First, I disagree with your definition of soul. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person. But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value to him, that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.” (CCC 363) Again, to stress the point, there is nothing in Christian doctrine which states that man consists of a bodily shell filled with a soul; that is simply not a Christian concept.

Second, you have used trick language here by saying, “I agree that Jesus didn’t have to “progress” to become God with us.” This is not only not what I said, but completely twists the meaning of my words. You quote me in entirety, and then insist that I have said something I have not. In order for this to be an honest dialogue, both parties must be clearly understood by the other, and neither party is to misrepresent what the other has said. This is not only for the benefit of the conversation itself, but also for those reading who might be trying to learn. When I use the word shell, it is a matter of terminology only, and regardless people will understand it to mean what you are saying, as RebeccaJ clearly does. But quoting me and then misconstruing what I have said means either that I have failed to present things clearly to you, or I have and you choose to misrepresent them anyway.

Now, a similar point is only similar, and not the same. I referenced the LDS page to which SpeSalvi provided a link (a page which is not only an official LDS page, but provides references to LDS literature in support of its statements.) , refuting the claims made therein. It is Scriptural fact that Lucifer is a creation and that Christ created him. The Gospel of St. John says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be.” The book of Genesis says, “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth…” Between these two verses alone we know that God is the Creator, that nothing came to be without him, and that Jesus was both with God and is God. To place the word made in quotation marks as you do is, again, to misrepresent what I have said.

Angels are eternal, hence the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, so they do not need to be granted eternal life. Angels are not human souls because angels are not in union with a body, and the idea that they can wear a body like a glove means that they are not in union with that body.

If souls were not in union with bodies, then it would make nonsense of sins such as mutilation and murder; should one body wear out, get another (opening the door to heretical reincarnation beliefs). It would mean that verses such as “by his wounds we are healed” are meaningless because the wounds are only on a body and not on God himself. It would make the Christ’s Sacrifice on the cross empty, as well as his words at the Last Supper that his flesh would be given up for us. It would be meaningless and valueless for God to put on a meat suit and have it tortured and executed while not being in union with that body. It would mean that the Incarnation did not happen, because by not being in union with the body God didn’t actually become man. But we know from Scripture that Christ actually became man and was God also. We know from Scripture that the wounds are on Christ himself and not just his body.

God sends angels to earth without them having to have flesh. The Angel of the Annunciation is just one example. The question, if we are all enfleshed angels, is why would humankind be so impressed with angels if we were the same but with a meat wrapper? Wouldn’t we know our own? And why would God, in that case, not simply send the next door neighbor to announce the Incarnation to Mary? Surely that would have been simpler.

These LDS beliefs about angels are definitely inconsistent with Catholic beliefs, you’ve got that right, and since the Catholic Church’s beliefs about angels define the rest of the Christian world’s beliefs about angels, that means the LDS beliefs are at odds with all of Christianity. In fact, they are at odds with Scripture, which would say in the book of Genesis that God placed an angel inside the body otherwise. If you are actually reading my posts, then you must know that breaking down things the way I’m doing is following St. Paul’s advice about testing the spirits. These LDS teachings fail the test.

You may not know this, ParkerD, but heresy is a direct attack on Jesus. Technical definitions of heresy aside, each heresy attacks the person of Jesus Christ. This is the reason I return to Jesus in my arguments. If what the LDS teaches attacks the person of Christ, then it is heresy and must be abandoned; and believe me, these LDS teachings attack the person of Christ.

The word “spirit” is used in different ways, and in the case of your argument, is an attempt to parse words and justify an unsupportable position. Satan did the same thing when he tempted Jesus in the desert. God sends either an angel with a message, or a person with a message. Humans are not derivative of angels, nor do angels make up any part of the human person.

 

[TexanKnight]

The LDS creation story is actually pretty wild. After Jesus’ brother Satan was kicked out of heaven, Jesus and Michael came to earth and started creating. At the end of each day, Jesus and Michael would go tell God they had created something on earth just like they had done on other planets before.

After the earth was finished, Michael became Adam. Eve was created, Satan tempted her and then she tempted Adam (Michael).

Then, Satan used Catholic Priests as agents to tempt Adam and Eve.

This is straight from their temple ceremony.

 

[Crux_Sacra]

The LDS creation story is actually pretty wild. After Jesus’ brother Satan was kicked out of heaven, Jesus and Michael came to earth and started creating. At the end of each day, Jesus and Michael would go tell God they had created something on earth just like they had done on other planets before.

After the earth was finished, Michael became Adam. Eve was created, Satan tempted her and then she tempted Adam (Michael).

Then, Satan used Catholic Priests as agents to tempt Adam and Eve.

This is straight from their temple ceremony.

TexanKnight,
Can you cite a source so I can look it up? Because the idea of St. Michael (“Who is like unto God?”) who threw Satan out of Heaven becoming human so he can aspire to be a god is absolutely Satanic. And I have to admit, I have a difficult time believing this one.