The Creed

[pira114]

Very true! There are also Eastern Catholic Churches that are in full communion with the Pope. Roman Catholic is just the Latin Rite of the Church. The Byzantine, Melkite, Maronite, etc. are other Catholic Rites who all recognize the Holy Father but have different liturgies.

This is all well and good, and I agree. But it has ne relavence to the post. The OP is asking why Protestants, not other Catholics, use the word “catholic” in their creeds.

The short answer is that the word itself means universal, it’s not, by itself, a denomination.

That being said, I agree with everyone that the one true Church is the Roman Catholic Church headed by they Pope.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Well actually, the Holy Orthodox church likewise has these four marks.

Excuse my ignorance but isn’t there more than one Orthodox Church (Armenian, Coptic, Greek, etc.) - so is the Orthodox Church really “one”? I know in Catholicism we have Latin (or Western), Eastern, and Oriental Catholicism, but these are Rites of the same Church, not separate churches, thereby maintaining the unity of the Catholic Church as one Church - is it the same way with the Orthodox, or are they divided enough to prevent them from being considered “one church”? Could someone explain the extent of the divisions between the Orthodox

Karolina

 

[lak611]

That being said, I agree with everyone that the one true Church is the Roman Catholic Church headed by they Pope.

The Pope does NOT head just the ROMAN Catholic Church. He also heads the Byzantine Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, etc. The Eastern Catholic Churches are ALL part of the Catholic Church.

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios;1765525:

Well actually, the Holy Orthodox church likewise has these four marks.

Excuse my ignorance but isn’t there more than one Orthodox Church (Armenian, Coptic, Greek, etc.) - so is the Orthodox Church really “one”? I know in Catholicism we have Latin (or Western), Eastern, and Oriental Catholicism, but these are Rites of the same Church, not separate churches, thereby maintaining the unity of the Catholic Church as one Church - is it the same way with the Orthodox, or are they divided enough to prevent them from being considered “one church”? Could someone explain the extent of the divisions between the Orthodox

Karolina

This may be difficult for me to explain the first time around, but here goes: We have unity of Faith, all Orthodox believe and do the same things.

But you must understand that you have mixed two groups together and lumped them into one category you call “Orthodox”. Your church and mine were together for one thousand years and we share the same understanding about the two natures of Christ. We are Diaphysites (I usually don’t see that term bandied about here!). The Armenians and Copts are not Orthodox, they are non-Chalcedonians and separated from Orthodox Catholicism. Usually they are described as Monophysites and they separated from your church at the same time as they separated from mine.

In the first millenium there were five independent Patriarchal churches, remembered as the Pentarchy. They were:

1. 
   *]Jerusalem
   *]Antioch
   *]Alexandria
   *]Roma, and
   *]Constantinople
   All five taught the same doctrines, with the same sacraments. This unity of Faith is what made them One Church. It did not depend upon one central administration, they were linked as an alliance of local churches separated geographically. As a business model it might be called a strategic partnership.
   
   The Patriarchal churches were further divided into clusters of dioceses under Metropolitans. These formed synods. In every case the churches taught the same doctrines. Ecclesiastical bounderies were agreed upon so the bishops territories did not overlap. This was not a problem in the few big cities (which would have a single designated bishop), but in some remote towns there could be a case where bishops from two different cities had sent priests to plant churches, so they mutually agreed to bounderies for efficiency and so ideally communities would not be split.
   
   In any case the theology was the same, even though the churches were independent of each other. Holy Orthodoxy continues this system today, all Orthodox churches are regional organizations that teach the same doctrine. That is how we define unity: it is unity of Faith which is held everywhere the same.
   
   The church of Roma separated itself from this arrangement for the last time in about 1054.

 

[mark_a]

Were catholics Catholic when the creed was written? Was the universal church the Catholic Church?

 

[East_Anglican]

This is all well and good, and I agree. But it has ne relavence to the post. The OP is asking why Protestants, not other Catholics, use the word “catholic” in their creeds.

The short answer is that the word itself means universal, it’s not, by itself, a denomination.

That being said, I agree with everyone that the one true Church is the Roman Catholic Church headed by they Pope.

Te one true Church is The holy catholic and apostolic church headed by Jesus Christ.

The creeds are the standard theology of The Church. Denominations are irelevant.

 

[Montalban]

I have a friend who is Christain, but not Catholic. (I am not sure what she exactly practices. I think maybe protestant?) She attended the baptism of my children, which was performed during a regular Sunday mass.

I thanked her for attending eventhough she is not Catholic and she said that there were many similarities to the masses she attends. She even said that the creed is the same.

Here is my question:
Why do non-Catholics say the creed with the line “We believe in one holy CATHOLIC and apostolic church”? I asked her and she said that she never thought about it. It seems to me that if I was not Catholic and was required to say that, I would have some questions.

Just curious. Thanks.

Catholic, when first used in a Christian concept meant ‘complete’ rather than ‘universal’ (the meaning was gradually changed in the west by some Fathers starting with Augustine)

“The claim of the Roman pope to have universal ordinary jurisdiction over the worldwide Church is dependent upon that the notion that the universal Church – rather than the diocese – is the Catholic Church.”

Carlton, C., (1999) “The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know about the Orthodox Church”, (Regina Orthodox Press; Salisbury, MA), p120.

This is at odds with the Orthodox idea that all bishops are equal, and that all churches are complete. We can examine the Church Fathers to see how they used the term ‘catholic’.

However the first time the term is used in a Christian sense it refers to the local church (remember here that the Orthodox approach is that the church always held that each bishop is equal

in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
"Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid"

(emphasis added)

St. Ignatius “The Epistle to the Smyrnaeans" Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop quoted at ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-21.htm#P2123_357530

Thus we Orthodox can claim to be “catholic”. And also, the Catholic church can claim to be “orthodox”.

 

[Montalban]

No it’s not. The word Catholic means universal. The Roman Catholic Church does not necessarrily mean the same as “catholic” when seen in literature. It’s just become normal to shorten RCC to just Catholic.

Ta cinnte, anois.

But it used to mean ‘complete’
(see post above)

 

[Montalban]

The one true Church is The holy catholic and apostolic church headed by Jesus Christ.

Several churches claim this. We Orthodox do. So do Catholics, though they add in an extra layer of church called “the Pope”, which is a bishop of bishops.

The creeds are the standard theology of The Church. Denominations are irelevant.

The creeds as formulated by Ecumenical Councils were to state what was already believed.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Thanks for clearing up my confusion, Hesychios.

This is at odds with the Orthodox idea that all bishops are equal, and that all churches are complete.

When did this idea that all bishops are equal develop? If the bishops are the successors of the Twelve Apostles, were all twelve of these apostles given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven by Jesus in Matthew 16, or was it only St. Peter? Jesus said He would found His Church on St. Peter (the “rock”) and not upon all the Apostles (although of course all of them would play an important part in that Church, just not an equal part with St. Peter). This and other Biblical (not to mention later) evidence shows that St. Peter had superiority over the other Apostles, thereby from the beginning creating a Church where not all bishops were equal.

Karolina

 

[Montalban]

When did this idea that all bishops are equal develop? If the bishops are the successors of the Twelve Apostles, were all twelve of these apostles given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven by Jesus in Matthew 16, or was it only St. Peter? Jesus said He would found His Church on St. Peter (the “rock”) and not upon all the Apostles (although of course all of them would play an important part in that Church, just not an equal part with St. Peter). This and other Biblical (not to mention later) evidence shows that St. Peter had superiority over the other Apostles, thereby from the beginning creating a Church where not all bishops were equal.

Karolina

It’s not a ‘development’ but right from the start of the church. The Church being founded on all the Apostles. It is the idea of papal supremacy that is a development.

Re: the keys
See post #274
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=124373&page=6

Wherein I cite John Cassian, Augustine, Hilary of Poitiers, John Chrysostomon et al.

Note in that thread I refer to a larger thread on this very issue. Which I wouldn’t expect you to have to read (not all of it), but the thread above is worth having a look at.