The criminal in paradise - when?

[Esmeralda]

One of the criminals hanging next to Jesus got the promise that he would come with Jesus to paradise “today”.
(Luke 22, 43)

But didn’t Jesus go to Hell (geenna) when He died?

How then could the criminal come with Jesus to paradise “today”?

Esmeralda

 

[Flounder]

Esmeralda,
Time is a creation of God, he and those in heaven are not subject to it as we are. I think you can see the Lord creating time in Genesis if you look (day and night vs. light and dark). Don’t let yourself get stuck on questions of time in the afterlife or when talking of God…for instance while the Church has used “time” as a measure of the purification of Purgatory, I don’t think God will actually be drumming his fingers waiting for the last guy (probably me) to finally clear purgatory. Time was/is just an easy way of thinking of it for us.

St Dismas, the thief in question, absolutely went to heaven after death.

 

[BibleReader]

It’s a matter of what “this day,” “with me” and “in paradise” means.

Though Scripture talks to us, it refers to ineffable things – not-completely-comprehensible things. Each of those key phrases in Christ’s statement to Dismas is semi-ineffable.

Paul refers to a period of “sleep,” apparently until the General Resurrection, after death.

But we won’t comprehend the passage of that time, will we? It will seem like no time passes, and he’ll see Christ “this day,” won’t it?

Next, when the Incarnation appeared “down here,” does that mean that ubiquitous Christ stopped being “up there”? Probably not.

Is Purgatory a piece of “Paradise”? Since the suffering in Purgatory know that they are saved, and have been suffused with knowledge of their personal evil and of Gpd’s perfect justice, they are happy while they suffer. So, are those folks correct who argue that Jesus’ words mean that Dismas received a plenary indulgence? I’d wait for the Church’s definitive ruling on that. Believe me – if I make it to Purgatory, it will be “Paradise” for me! I’ll be throwing a party, while I suffer!

The bottom line is that when we say, “Scripture must be read carefully,” we don’t mean in a simple, non-complex way. We mean in a mature way, which keeps the balance of Scripture in mind.

 

[Katholikos]

“Paradise” could mean “heaven” or it could mean “Abraham’s bosom,” the place where the justified waited until Jesus Christ opened the gates of heaven for mankind. That occurred at Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension, three days after those words were spoken to Dismas.

Many words in the Scriptures are enigmatic – especially for those like me who don’t know Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew and are dealing with an English translation. And every translator chooses wording that may or may not agree with another translator’s choices.* Every translation is an interpretation***.**

Only the original biblical writings, in the authors’ own handwriting, are the inerrant, inspired Word of God. None of the originals survived antiquity – not one. Copies and translations are not “inspired.” And all we have are copies.

“Lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5), but trust the teacher that Christ provided: the Catholic Church.

JMJ Jay

 

[mtr01]

I heard an interesting take on this that had to do with the punctuation of the verse. I don’t know how viable it is, but the idea was that since there was no punctuation in the source manuscripts (either Greek or Hebrew), the punctuation was added by the translators, and therefore they could have misplaced the comma. As a result, the statement as we have it (paraphrased):

“Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

could also be translated as:

“Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”.

Which would eliminate the apparent time discrepancy. Personally, I haven’t made a commitment one way or the other, but I think it is an interesting perspective.

 

[Esmeralda]

mtr01:

I heard an interesting take on this that had to do with the punctuation of the verse. I don’t know how viable it is, but the idea was that since there was no punctuation in the source manuscripts (either Greek or Hebrew), the punctuation was added by the translators, and therefore they could have misplaced the comma. As a result, the statement as we have it (paraphrased):

“Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

could also be translated as:

“Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”.

Which would eliminate the apparent time discrepancy. Personally, I haven’t made a commitment one way or the other, but I think it is an interesting perspective.

I’ve also heard this - from Jehovahs witnesses. That’s why I’m very sceptical to this punctuation, and I am wondering if it is something the Church would approve of.
It would solve my problem, but it would also refute our belief in Heaven after death (at least in the JW’s mind.)

Wouldn’t it?

I’m really confused

 

[romano]

mtr01:

I heard an interesting take on this that had to do with the punctuation of the verse. I don’t know how viable it is, but the idea was that since there was no punctuation in the source manuscripts (either Greek or Hebrew), the punctuation was added by the translators, and therefore they could have misplaced the comma. As a result, the statement as we have it (paraphrased):

“Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

could also be translated as:

“Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise”.

Which would eliminate the apparent time discrepancy. Personally, I haven’t made a commitment one way or the other, but I think it is an interesting perspective.

In the sentence - “Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise” - the word “today” is redundant, and Jesus never wasted words. Nothing would be lost by him saying “Amen I say to you, you will be with me in Paradise” if that is what he meant.

 

[RobedWithLight]

romano:

In the sentence - “Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise” - the word “today” is redundant, and Jesus never wasted words. Nothing would be lost by him saying “Amen I say to you, you will be with me in Paradise” if that is what he meant.

The good thief in any case, won salvation through Christ’s promise, and that is all that matters. The apparent time discrepancies would be irrelevant since time as we know it is meaningless in the afterlife.

Gerry

 

[mtr01]

Esmeralda:

I’ve also heard this - from Jehovahs witnesses. That’s why I’m very sceptical to this punctuation, and I am wondering if it is something the Church would approve of.
It would solve my problem, but it would also refute our belief in Heaven after death (at least in the JW’s mind.)

Wouldn’t it?

I’m really confused

I’m not married to that interpretation, I just thought it was an interesting take on the matter. I’m not sure, however, how it refutes there being a heaven after death. It is clear that Dismas (the good thief) will be in paradise at some point, whether he went straight there and Jesus met him there after the Ascention or he went to Limbo then to heaven after Jesus freed the souls there.

 

[quaysman]

mtr01:

I’m not married to that interpretation, I just thought it was an interesting take on the matter. I’m not sure, however, how it refutes there being a heaven after death. It is clear that Dismas (the good thief) will be in paradise at some point, whether he went straight there and Jesus met him there after the Ascention or he went to Limbo then to heaven after Jesus freed the souls there.

Good! (It wouldn’t be a valid marriage anyway)!

JWs, most Sabbatarians, and anyone who embraces the concept of soul sleep (mostly cults), all love the “misplaced comma” explanation. In fact even Bullinger in his Companion Bible uses it…

The only problem is that “Amen, I say to you” was a common formula that Jesus prefaced his statements with. Never does he say “Amen, I say to you today”… Check out Luke 12:44, 18:29, 21:32 for a few examples.

In addition, no respectable bible translation has ever rendered it that way to my knowledge…

Also Jesus decended into “Hades” (The Grave, Abode of the Dead, etc) not Gehenna" (Lake of Fire).

Grace & Peace

 

[mtr01]

quaysman:

Good! (It wouldn’t be a valid marriage anyway)!

JWs, most Sabbatarians, and anyone who embraces the concept of soul sleep (mostly cults), all love the “misplaced comma” explanation. In fact even Bullinger in his Companion Bible uses it…

The only problem is that “Amen, I say to you” was a common formula that Jesus prefaced his statements with. Never does he say “Amen, I say to you today”… Check out Luke 12:44, 18:29, 21:32 for a few examples.

In addition, no respectable bible translation has ever rendered it that way to my knowledge…

Also Jesus decended into “Hades” (The Grave, Abode of the Dead, etc) not Gehenna" (Lake of Fire).

Grace & Peace

Thanks for this explanation. I guess I never really thought about how many times Jesus said “Amen I say to you”…and not once was “today” in there. To be honest, I never really gave the whole time issue much thought before this thread. It doesn’t seem terribly important, just something for certain groups to quibble over IMHO. The comma explanation seemed interesting to me, but now I can see it is too problematic to be taken seriously.