The Crisis in the Catholic Church

[patricius79]

I agree that there is never an excuse for schism. I don’t think that cardinal Burke would go into schism.

My understanding is that the Dubia were originally posed privately to the Holy Father, who refused to answer them. Then they were eventually made public.

Besides the need to have a firm intention to avoid objectively grave sin, I think there is a larger issue in the Church today about not addressing at the parish level other grave habitual violations of the Commandments, such as contraception.

I think we need pastors to remind us what recieving Communion means: namely, that we believe the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, and we assent to all the Church teaches (despite all temptations to doubt) and are–by leaning on Mary and Jesus–striving to live out these teachings (despite all weaknesses and falls and needing to go to Confession)

 

[pnewton]

Besides the need to have a firm intention to avoid objectively grave sin, I think there is a larger issue in the Church today about not addressing at the parish level other grave habitual violations of the Commandments, such as contraception.

I think we need pastors to remind us what recieving Communion means: namely, that we believe the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, and we assent to all the Church teaches (despite all temptations to doubt) and are–by leaning on Mary and Jesus–striving to live out these teachings (despite all weaknesses and falls and needing to go to Confession)

Even if the Church decides that doctrine permits communion where actual grave sin is present, as opposed to objective sin, then these are very serious concerns. I guess while I do not agree that Cardinal Burke and others have made their case for the doctrinal necessity for the current practice, I probably think it best for these reasons you state. On the other hand, while the most progressive of priests make the news, I do not think they represent more than a small minority of priests precisely because their actions (antics?) are newsworthy. I may be overly optimistic, but I would like to think many more will come away with a better understanding of their current state in light of Church teaching than will come away having weaseled a way into a loophole.

Has it occurred to the critics of Pope Francis here that just maybe souls will be saved by understanding why they must live as brother and sister through this process?

 

[oppositeman13]

Has it occurred to the critics of Pope Francis here that just maybe souls will be saved by understanding why they must live as brother and sister through this process?

some will be but who knows how many - I don’t think that being the case is a case for putting others in jeopardy. Some will hear of the changes from others - distortion of the facts, at least to some extent is likely and people will just decide for themselves it is ok to receive.

 

[oppositeman13]

reason says not 100% of people will benefit - there are going to be some hurt badly by this. If what you contend was the case then I believe the objections would greatly diminish but not totally go away because some see an elephant in the room - namely situation ethics.

 

[oppositeman13]

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...d-on-communion-for-the-divorced-and-remarried

 

[pnewton]

because some see an elephant in the room - namely situation ethics.

Those that do see this that cannot get past the logical fallacy of begging the question. Yet this being the internet, saying it more often and with real angry words will probably make it seem pretty real. Yet in the end, those that understand the Catholic doctrine on conscience will see the difference between supremacy of conscience and situational ethics.

 

[patricius79]

Hi pnewton,

What exactly do you mean by “supremacy of conscience”.

I know one of the Dubia was as follows:

“After Amoris Laetitia (303) does one still need to regard as valid the teaching of St. John Paul II’s encyclical Veritatis Splendor, 56, based on sacred Scripture and on the Tradition of the Church, that excludes a creative interpretation of the role of conscience and that emphasizes that conscience can never be authorized to legitimate exceptions to absolute moral norms that prohibit intrinsically evil acts by virtue of their object?”

Full Text and Explanatory Notes of Cardinals’ Questions on ‘Amoris Laetitia’

The full documentation relating to the cardinals’ initiative, entitled ‘Seeking Clarity: A Plea to Untie the Knots in Amoris Laetitia.’

www.ncregister.com

 

[oppositeman13]

that’s because we see it as a abuse of conscience when scripture is so very clear and official catholic teaching has been challenged 4 times and has always been upheld.That should lay bare the reality of situation ethics entering into the issue - but those who like what is being presented disregard what is obvious in favor of believing error. This abuse of conscience gives satan an opening that he has not previously had. It is very dangerous for souls as some will fall victim and put their eternal salvation in serious jeopardy, is my thinking.

 

[pnewton]

In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

 

[Verdanty]

In regards to the Dubia not being answered.

Can Francis really respond at all without causing chaos? I would think his answer whatever it is would cause a schism.

Just to touch the very tip of the iceberg and Amoris Laetitia alone. The Maltese Bishops has taken this as giving communion to the divorced to be acceptable. The German and Belgian Synods (the former being the 2nd wealthiest asset of the Catholic Church just behind the US) have openly stated that any attempt to prevent them from following a similar course will lead them to seek greater independence from Rome. If Francis was to attempt to tell them otherwise, they would likely rebel as they already openly are on euthanasia and same sex relationships.

Likewise, if Francis was to state without ambiguity that communion for the divorced and remarried was acceptable; Africa would hit the roof, considering prohibition of divorce and polygamy has been a very unwelcome aspect of their new religion. Can you just imagine telling them that “adultery” was now okay after the long fight Christian missionaries faced in stamping it out and villifying it?

But if Francis does what he does now, and keep silent; both sides will interpret it exactly how they want.

Is it a good theological move? Probably not. Is it a good political one? It’s probably the best option on the table. The Church doesn’t want to lose huge chunks of the faithful (Traditionalists), but at the same time it needs the funds from the “decadent and depraved” west to do what it does. Someone has to pay for all that incense and missionary funding after all, and the former would struggle to exist without the latter bankrolling it.

 

[oppositeman13]

The crisis cannot be averted - the cat is out of the bag - what our pope has sown we will all now reap.

 

[oppositeman13]

In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.

this can’t be true - if it said instead “what he believes to be” - yes we all do that except when we choose sin.

If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

where did you get this from? This is an assumption that his conscience is always correct and we know that this is not true.

 

[oppositeman13]

If one wants to use the primacy of conscience to believe in what is being done, I would just say please be sure that God is speaking to your soul and not satan speaking to your conscience. If you are comfortable with your belief then go with it, always keeping yourself open to knowing that only one side of this debate can be right. We can hope that all those on the wrong side will realize it in time, and certainly before their death.

 

[Ghosty1981]

If this is true then the damage is already done. This is why changes like those in AL should be made with full (name removed by moderator)ut of the Church and clear reasoning and explanation.

Now the bird is out of the cage and answers will be needed. Letting the issue go without response will only feed resentment. Speaking for myself, I’ve been just as bothered by the official silence as I am by the vagueness of the document itself. To my mind the only purpose of the Papacy is clarity and unity.

 

[Rau]

A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

Speaking generally (ie. not applying it to the topic at hand) I don’t believe this is upheld by the Church as a basis to act in a manner that the Church has taught is wrong.

 

[pnewton]

pnewton:

In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.

this can’t be true - if it said instead “what he believes to be” - yes we all do that except when we choose sin.

If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.

where did you get this from? This is an assumption that his conscience is always correct and we know that this is not true.

Both are quotes directly verbatim from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[pnewton]

If one wants to use the primacy of conscience to believe in what is being done, I would just say please be sure that God is speaking to your soul and not satan speaking to your conscience.

I would add that this is something one should not attempt solo, if there is any whiff that one’s thinking is not in accord with Church teaching. I might even say it would necessitate pastoral accompaniment be a priest. But then as I said, I am an optimist.

 

[patricius79]

That’s right. Which is why one or more of the questions in the Dubia address this idea that conscience can be pitted against absolute morality.

 

[oppositeman13]

Do I understand what you and Rau are speaking about correctly? - that using the primary of conscience to override official catholic teachings is an abuse of it? If that is true then that eliminates that being used as a defence against saying that what is happening is situation ethics - which is what I believe is happening.

 

[patricius79]

I agree that conscience is the voice of God in one’s soul. God is never going to tell us it’s okay to violate moral absolutes, which are minimal moral requirements.

Rather than lowering standards–which is not loving–what should be focused on is the power of Confession (and the other Sacraements) and Marian devotion to bring us closer to Jesus.