The Crucifixion of Christ

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Every year for the first 10 days of the first month of the Islamic calendar, we hold a series of lectures marking the anniversary of the the martyrdom of Hussein son of Ali (as) at the plains of Karbala.

This particular lecture caught my attention, the topic was the crucifixion of Christ, many different themes about this event was explored and although we Muslims have a different view of the crucifixion then Christians, there are many lessons to take away from the event, even if taken from the Christian Bible.

I put the link up below for anyone interested, I hope you enjoy it as much as i did and would love to see your comments and thoughts.

shialectures.net/english/videos-action-show-id-12.htm
 
The big difference, of course, is that Ali was a mere mortal.

Jesus Christ is uniquely God Incarnate Who truly died on the Cross (despite what the Coran says) and rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and will return in glory to judge all mankind, inluding Ali and Mohamed.
 
Dear Famdigy,

Other then the quran, there is no other references which show what muslims believe. For me when I ask this question, I start wondering who will benefit in calling the crucifixation a hoax. Why would God of Truth lie with crucifixation? It just makes no sense unless someone else is mixed up in this with ulterior motives and who can that be? Who wants to gain more souls for himself?

SATAN.

God bless you and hope you realize the truth.
 
Interesting video, and I appreciate the speaker’s emphasis on studying Christian theology. I also found his point about the passage in the Koran regarding Christ’s crucifixion meaning His message will not be killed, rather than Him, is interesting.

Some criticism, however:

He attempts to justify the Koran’s use of crucifixion at the time of Moses by claiming that the Bible says crucifixion happened at the time of Moses falls on some faulty ground. He mentions Genesis 40:19 Deuteronomy 21:22-23 and says they refer to crucifixion, but fails to quote them. Gen 40:19 says the “lift up your head from you and will hang you on a tree,” and Deuteronomy says likewise. The definition most likely means a literal hanging, as Genesis 40:22 and Genesis 41:13 simply says the Baker was hanged, and in Joshua 10:26 Joshua is said to have hanged five men on five different trees. Esther 6:4 especially uses the term “hanged” and this hanging happens at the gallows.

Now in relation to early “Christians” it is ironic that he mentions the Docetics because: 1) this movement was Gnostic in source, and therefore incompatible with Islamic theology in any way, and therefore they could not be “true” Christians as they were not true Muslims either; 2) the Docetics denied the death on the cross because they were philosophical dualists, and denied that Jesus had a physical body, which contradicts what the Muslims believe regarding Him; 3) the Docetics were not connected to the original apostles - should Christians take sects of Islam not related to the original companions of the prophet? Furthermore, if we chose early Muslims who denied Mohammad was a prophet or something strange that neither Sunnis nor Shia would agree with and called them “Muslims,” would the Muslims agree with us that they were true followers of God. In addition to all this, his mention of the Nestorians is peculiar, as they did not come until the 5th century, long after the Council of Nicea and various other councils that would seem by most Muslims to have already gotten rid of the “true” Christians.

Some other strange argumentation he presents:
  • He ponders why Christ died so quickly on the cross. He forgets the scourging that happened before, which would have put Christ in near critical condition by the time He reached Golgotha.
  • He says that Jesus didn’t have his legs broken but the other two thieves did. This is common for some Muslim apologists, but it fails to remember one thing: although Christ did not have His legs broken, His side was pierced. The passage detailing this (John 19:34) happens right after the passage about His legs not being broken, therefore I can only assume this passage is ignored out of willful ignorance.
  • The argument that we don’t know if Christ had nails in His hands because only John’s gospel mentions it is ridiculous; crucifixion deals with driving nails into the person’s body. The other three gospel writers didn’t mention it for the same reason they didn’t detail what Christ’s “scourging” meant - because it wouldn’t have been necessary. If you have four accounts of death by lethal injection and only one details needles being put into a person’s body, does that mean there is some denial that a person got needles put into them? Of course not.
  • He says further evidence that there were no nails was that the thieves could move their hands because it says they were gesturing. Actually, nowhere does the New Testament say the thieves gestured with their hands while on the cross.
  • He claims there was thunder, which would have scared everyone and no one would check to see if Christ was dead. This forgets a few things: 1) none of the gospels confirm this; 2) the speaker again forgets the spear thrust to ensure Christ’s death; 3) the speaker mentions Pilate pondering if Christ was dead, and even later states that Pilate didn’t check if He was dead…but forgets the part immediately afterward where Pilate asks a centurion and has it confirmed that yes, Jesus is dead (much like the spear thrust, I can only assume this is done intentionally - especially given that this part is in the same verse stating Pilate was surprised Christ was dead); 4) all the gospels mention that there were witnesses nearby, many of them the women who had followed Jesus (Matt 27:55-56; Mark 15:40-41; Luke 23:49; John 19:25).
  • He says that when Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb it doesn’t seem like she’s expecting a resurrection…well of course not, no one was. Not even the disciples, whom Christ told many times during His earthly ministry that He would rise again on the third day, were expecting it. This point is irrelevant.
  • When going into the Judas-Replacement-Theory, he mentions Christ’s line, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” and tries to use this as evidence it was someone other than Jesus. He seems to ignore that it is a reference to Psalm 22 as well as everything else that Christ says on the cross (when Christ absolves the repentant thief, is that Judas?). The length at which he speaks on this tells me he is either completely ignorant of this topic, or he is simply blowing hot air.
 
famdigy said:
Every year for the first 10 days of the first month of the Islamic calendar, we hold a series of lectures marking the anniversary of the the martyrdom of Hussein son of Ali (as) at the plains of Karbala.

This particular lecture caught my attention, the topic was the crucifixion of Christ, many different themes about this event was explored and although we Muslims have a different view of the crucifixion then Christians, there are many lessons to take away from the event, even if taken from the Christian Bible.

I put the link up below for anyone interested, I hope you enjoy it as much as i did and would love to see your comments and thoughts.

shialectures.net/english/videos-action-show-id-12.htm
Click to expand...
Hi there Famdigy - long time no see here on CAF ~

What does the anniversary death of Hussein have to do with Jesus Crucifixion?

If the lectures are about him, why is Jesus Christ in the topic?
 
I believe I see what he is trying to do. He posted this on the day we celebrate the birth of our Savior. I beleive this is done out of disrespect for us and our Savoir. He is trying to get us all riled up to see if we will discuss this among ourselves in hope’s that the discussion will get ugly. I say this is not worth responding to. It just feeds into his/her delight of disrespecting us and our Savior.
Its a post and run.
 
rev_kevin said:
I believe I see what he is trying to do. He posted this on the day we celebrate the birth of our Savior. I beleive this is done out of disrespect for us and our Savoir. He is trying to get us all riled up to see if we will discuss this among ourselves in hope’s that the discussion will get ugly. I say this is not worth responding to. It just feeds into his/her delight of disrespecting us and our Savior.
Its a post and run.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen famdigy’s other posts and spoken to him privately on PM, and I don’t think that’s his intention at all. His intention is not out of disrespect to us or Jesus, especially since, as a Muslim, he believes Jesus to be a revered prophet.

It is true that around this time Shia are commemorating the martyrdom of Hussein, who was a son of Ali (whom Shia believe to be the rightful successor to Mohammad), and I believe what famdigy and the speaker in the video are trying to point out is that both cases - the crucifixion of Christ and martyrdom of Hussein - have some similarity in the idea of two men going to what they know is certain death and martyrdom. The speaker is also entertaining some new theological ideas concerning S. 4:157, which is the passage in the Koran that speaks about the crucifixion.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
I’ve seen famdigy’s other posts and spoken to him privately on PM, and I don’t think that’s his intention at all. His intention is not out of disrespect to us or Jesus, especially since, as a Muslim, he believes Jesus to be a revered prophet.

It is true that around this time Shia are commemorating the martyrdom of Hussein, who was a son of Ali (whom Shia believe to be the rightful successor to Mohammad), and I believe what famdigy and the speaker in the video are trying to point out is that both cases - the crucifixion of Christ and martyrdom of Hussein - have some similarity in the idea of two men going to what they know is certain death and martyrdom. The speaker is also entertaining some new theological ideas concerning S. 4:157, which is the passage in the Koran that speaks about the crucifixion.
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Thank you. I stand to be corrected. I have not seen any of his posts before and have not talked to him in PM. I would like to appoligize to famdigy’s for what I, in error, beleived to be a insult directed as Christians and Jesus. Once again thank you for clearing it up for me.
 
rev_kevin said:
I believe I see what he is trying to do. He posted this on the day we celebrate the birth of our Savior. I beleive this is done out of disrespect for us and our Savoir. He is trying to get us all riled up to see if we will discuss this among ourselves in hope’s that the discussion will get ugly. I say this is not worth responding to. It just feeds into his/her delight of disrespecting us and our Savior.
Its a post and run.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with Biz_Wolf’s post.

Famdigy has been around for a long time here on CAF and I believe he is the only Shia muslim we have on board.

I’ve never seen Fam’s post as a post & run.

No worries Rev Kevin ~ & Merry Christmas.

Best regards!
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Interesting video, and I appreciate the speaker’s emphasis on studying Christian theology. I also found his point about the passage in the Koran regarding Christ’s crucifixion meaning His message will not be killed, rather than Him, is interesting.
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I agree that quoting the bible to defend the crucifixion at the time of Moses isn’t a strong argument, It would have been better to argue the meaning of this as being impaled on a tree or stick instead of crucifixion.

I don’t believe he was referring to the Docetics as “the true Christians”, rather he was explaining their position on the crucifixion. In my opinion, the early Christians that held similar beliefs to Muslims about Jesus would have been the Jewish Christians led by James. They believed Jesus was a prophet and not deity.

you mentioned the Judas-Replacement-Theory and that Jesus was quoting psalms 22. I’m curious to know what is the biblical evidence to support this view. Because when I read the relevant section in Matthew, I didn’t get the impression he was quoting, rather I got the impression he was asking for help.
 
famdigy said:
I don’t believe he was referring to the Docetics as “the true Christians”, rather he was explaining their position on the crucifixion. In my opinion, the early Christians that held similar beliefs to Muslims about Jesus would have been the Jewish Christians led by James. They believed Jesus was a prophet and not deity.
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If the Docetics are not “true Christians,” and therefore true Muslims (for Islam believes all true followers of God are simply Muslims), then he really has no point to be making. If they are not real Christians. If they are not real Christians, and therefore not real Muslims, then why bother with their opinion at all? Why look at people whom Christians and Muslims would both agree are heretics?

As for the true Christians being the “Jewish Christians” led by James, there is no evidence to support that he supported them or that they believed Jesus was just a prophet and not deity. This is especially true if you’re responding to the Judaizers in Acts: they believed in Christ’s deity but held the Law in higher regard than Grace and Truth; they also could not be led by James, as he speaks out against their theology at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The apostles worked as a group, they spoke as a group, and they believed as a group - and they all believed that Christ was deity. If you are referring to groups such as the Ebionites, there were actually various beliefs within their movement and they were condemned early on, especially by early Church Fathers such as St. Ignatius (who was a disciple of the apostle John).
famdigy said:
you mentioned the Judas-Replacement-Theory and that Jesus was quoting psalms 22. I’m curious to know what is the biblical evidence to support this view. Because when I read the relevant section in Matthew, I didn’t get the impression he was quoting, rather I got the impression he was asking for help.
Click to expand...
The best scriptural evidence for this is simply reading Psalm 22 🙂 Let’s review.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” [Matt 27:46]

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? [Psalm 22:1]

Psalm 22 is one giant Messianic prophesy. It foretells the isolation, mockery and execution of the Messiah, but ends with His glorification. This is not simply Byzantine_Wolf’s opinion, but has been the Church’s interpretation as well as Christian interpretation for some time. For example, Saint John Chrysostom makes reference to Psalm 22 in his exegesis of this passage, and proclaims it as the passage Jesus is citing. One finds Jesus quoting the psalms throughout His earthly ministry, therefore it is not strange that He would be quoting it here.

Now, why would He quote it, you might ask? A few reasons: 1) He is citing prophetic scripture to show who He is and what is truly happening; 2) He is showing sympathy to those who feel isolated from God - through His human nature Christ feels that isolation, and He cries out what an isolated person would feel to show His compassion towards those who in the past, present and future have felt it. To put it crudely, it was Christ letting those who have always felt isolated know that He, the Incarnate Word, knew what it felt. It was part of His suffering which He endured to purify our flesh and return us to the embrace of God.

You must also remember that to the Jews of that time this passage would have meant something, as they used the psalms in services and memorized scripture, and therefore would find it familiar. It would be the equivalent of me whispering before death, “Amazing grace…”. Those listening to me would know that I was referring to a popular hymn and not being astounded by a woman named Grace. 🙂 They would also know what that hymn was about, and put it into the context of what was happening.

Therefore when Christ calls out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”, it makes perfect sense within the context of what is happening (especially when we remember everything that happens before and after it is made, within the gospel), and His purpose is sound.
 
In addition to my post with all my issues regarding the speech, I’ll also add that I’m amused he brings up the Gospel of Barnabas, which scholars have shown does not come from the apostolic age. I’ve even heard some Muslims admit that there’s no evidence to suggest it take from the time of the early apostles.
 
Mohammad didn’t die for our sins.
Only Jesus Christ did. Anything else is false.
 
famdigy,

Let me first say that I have spent considerable time studying other religions, including Islam. Allow me to also state right here that I have immense respect for those who sincerely practice Islam in the belief that it is the highest path to the knowledge of God.

Lastly, let me state that when I chose to study Islam, I did NOT simply ask some protestant pastor or Catholic priest what it was all about. Why would ANYONE do THAT? What I did do was purchase the best English translation of the Qur’an I could find (Yusuf Ali) and read it. I then spent several months speaking to Muslims about the meanings behind many of the key Suras and verses. Admittedly, I found much within Islam to be exquitisitely beautiful. I also found that most practicing Muslims live honourable, praiseworthy lives. However, having said that, what I didn’t find was the PERSONAL, INTIMATE relationship with an ALL_LOVING, FORGIVING God that JESUS CHRIST has revealed to me through HIS CHURCH.

So, if YOU want to KNOW about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, I suggest you read about it in the HOLY BIBLE that was written and compiled by the members of HIS CHURCH. That’s the ONLY place where you will find CHRISTIAN theology. Next, ask your questions about the Crucifixion and the Resurrection from a knowledgeable Catholic apologist. Then, get to know some of the PRACTICING members and families within His original CATHOLIC Church. What you should NOT do is ask someone who is a leading theologian of some OTHER religion! Why would you do THAT?

I invite you to investigate!

famdigy: May the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the LOVE of God and the **fellowship of the Holy Spirit **be with YOU always. AMEN.
 
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