The Crusades: Just and Reasonable

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Pax vobiscum!

Why do the Orthodox keep bringing up the Fourth Crusade as an attempt to show wrongdoing of the Catholic Church against them rather than individuals who took part in the sack of Constantinople?
Because it was not just an attack by individuals, but a concerted attempt to wipe-out Orthodoxy.

There was established a Latin seat in Constantinople, and Latins then went out and forced conversions upon Orthodox. Perhaps you wish this instead to be an example of the powerlessness of the Pope?
And Vigis, Augustine did write a just war document, and it is what our Just War Doctrine is based on. I have a copy of it.

In Christ,
Rand
That’s what I thought. He basically said it was immoral for him to sit at home and protest war, etc. when there were people out there on the front-line fighting to protect him in his right to despise them.
 
Because it was not just an attack by individuals, but a concerted attempt to wipe-out Orthodoxy.

There was established a Latin seat in Constantinople, and Latins then went out and forced conversions upon Orthodox. Perhaps you wish this instead to be an example of the powerlessness of the Pope?
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I have spoken in various threads about the insoucience the West has too often shown toward Orthodoxy. But we need to get this straight. There was plenty of blame to go around in the Fourth Crusade. The Crusaders wanted to enter Palestine by way of Egypt, but were dependant on Venice for transport. Venice had, however, made a deal with Egypt to divert the Crusaders. The Byzantine Emperor Manuel enraged Venice by arresting thousands of its merchants, thus assuring himself of a powerful enemy. His successor, Isaac Angelus, was deposed by his brother, who imprisoned and blnded him. Isaac’s son, Alexius, went to Europe and persuaded the Crusaders that if they would restore Isaac (and him), he would pay a large sum to pay for the crusade, provide 10,000 men to help the Crusaders in Palestine, and return the Orthodox Church to union with Rome. Pope Innocent III, hearing of this, threatened excommunication on any Crusader who attacked Byzantium. Nevertheless, the Crusaders did not have the price of transport and agreed to go to Byzantium. On arrival, they insisted on restoration of Isaac and his son, which the Greeks did. However, when the Greeks learned of the price in money, they revolted, killed Alexius, re-imprisoned Isaac, refused to pay the Crusaders what Alexius had promised and raised an army to attack the Crusader camp outside the city. Learning of this, the Crusaders laid siege to the city, took it and looted it, adding insult to injury by placing a Crusader on the throne. Shortly thereafter, the crusade fell apart.

The biggest villains in the piece were probably the Venetian Doge, Dandolo, and Alexius. But there was poor judgment and immoral action all around. The Greeks should have known it was unwise, at minimum, to renege on Alexius’ promise, since the Crusaders had no place to go without the cost of transport. They should have known they could not resist the Crusader army. The Crusaders defied the Pope and let their purpose be diverted by Byzantine gold after the walls of the city were breached.

But it was no massacre. Some 2000 Greeks died in the ordeal, which was not unusual in the siege and conquest of a city of that size. It did not result in the Turkish conquest. At no point were there more than 4500 knights and 20,000 infantry int he Crusader army. The Turkish conquest did not take place until two centuries later, and the Turkish army was 140,000 men. Internal weakness, not the Crusaders, were responsible for the city’s fall. There were no forced conversions. A delegation of Latin and Orthodox clergy offered reunion to Rome, which was accepted, thus rendering conversion moot. No doubt many Orthodox resented it, and might have been right in resenting Alexius’ deal and the offer of reunion. But it was not a forced conversion.

Nor were the Greeks all that clean. They refused to aid the Serbs at Kosovo, as well as other Orthodox, against the Turks. More than once they sent Byzantine troops to aid the Turks against Orthodox in the Balkans. Even so, the West ought to have aided them, notwithstanding that other Orthodox peoples also refused to help them when their need came.

Before, during and after the Fourth Crusade, Pope Innocent III condemned it, and that should be admitted.

Pope John Paul II apologized to Orthodoxy for Latin misdeeds, including those of the Fourth Crusade. Pope Benedict has extended his hand to Orthodoxy. The real threats to Latin and Orthodox Christianity are Islam and secularism, not each other. It is time to stop focusing on old injuries and to get serious about rapprochement.
 
Wow, this thread just blows my mind.

How did the crusades begin?

Before the crusaders ever crossed the mediterranean, they slaughtered Jews in every town they passed on their march to the ships.

When they got to Palestine, they slaughetered men, women, and children in Jerusalem. So much so that one account says “the blood was up to our ankles.”

And when they got to Byzantium, they destroyed its Christian-Orthodox government with a Latin one, ultimately leading to the downfall of the last Christian state in the middle east.

The crusades killed lots of Jews, lots of innocent people of other religions, and ultimately caused the only Christian state in the east to be destroyed.

We should be proud of this? Sounds to me like someone hasn’t been doing his homework at all.
 
Wow, this thread just blows my mind.

How did the crusades begin?
They were a reaction to the clousure of the Holy Land to pilgrims.
Before the crusaders ever crossed the mediterranean, they slaughtered Jews in every town they passed on their march to the ships.

When they got to Palestine, they slaughetered men, women, and children in Jerusalem. So much so that one account says “the blood was up to our ankles.”

And when they got to Byzantium, they destroyed its Christian-Orthodox government with a Latin one, ultimately leading to the downfall of the last Christian state in the middle east.

The crusades killed lots of Jews, lots of innocent people of other religions, and ultimately caused the only Christian state in the east to be destroyed.

We should be proud of this? Sounds to me like someone hasn’t been doing his homework at all.
Many left with good intentions. Their violence, to me, seems to have been triggered by Islam.

You have to remember that Christianity spread through a pre-existing structure; the Roman Empire, and it did so peacefully. Islam even in the time of Muhammed was exceptionally violent (Muhammed over-saw the execution of PoWs, and applauded political assassinations).

Christianity took about 300 years before someone came up with a ‘justified war’. It reacted slowly to the pressures from Islam, and lost all of North Africa, and the Iberian Peninsula, Sicily, the Holy Land, and Asia Minor before the threat was taken seriously.

Violence begets violence and the Crusades are are result of this.:o This is not an ‘excuse’ but perhaps you’ve fallen for the idea that the Crusades were the beginning of this aggression.
 
Nor were the Greeks all that clean. They refused to aid the Serbs at Kosovo, as well as other Orthodox, against the Turks. More than once they sent Byzantine troops to aid the Turks against Orthodox in the Balkans. Even so, the West ought to have aided them, notwithstanding that other Orthodox peoples also refused to help them when their need came.
Yes, after Constantinople’s power had been crippled by the Fourth Crusade they did indeed make many mistakes; short-sighted as they were, for they allowed the Turks to cross over into Europe to take on the Serbs, hoping to borrow more time.
 
They were a reaction to the clousure of the Holy Land to pilgrims.

Many left with good intentions. Their violence, to me, seems to have been triggered by Islam.
Then how come the first people killed by the Crusader armies were European Jews? They started killing Jews before they ever left Europe, so I can’t possibly imagine how this is “triggered by Islam.”
You have to remember that Christianity spread through a pre-existing structure; the Roman Empire, and it did so peacefully. Islam even in the time of Muhammed was exceptionally violent (Muhammed over-saw the execution of PoWs, and applauded political assassinations).
It is false to claim that Christianity spread peacefully. Theodosius and later emperors spent hundreds of years killing people who did not toe the orthodox line.

And Charlemagne slauthered every non-Christian group he got his hands on.

The spread of Christianity was not peaceful. It is simply absurd to claim that it was.
Violence begets violence and the Crusades are are result of this.:o This is not an ‘excuse’ but perhaps you’ve fallen for the idea that the Crusades were the beginning of this aggression.
Maybe so, but it certainly wasn’t righteous violence that it begot, and Europe was already a violent, nasty place before the Muslims ever reached it.

Europe had been a cesspool of violence since the fifth century, before Muhammad was born. So I think it’s dubious to claim that this spirit of violence against everyone comes from Islam…the Europeans were already behaving this way long before the wars in the middle east.
 
Yes, after Constantinople’s power had been crippled by the Fourth Crusade they did indeed make many mistakes; short-sighted as they were, for they allowed the Turks to cross over into Europe to take on the Serbs, hoping to borrow more time.
Constantinople’s power was already waning by the time of the Fourth “Crusade”.
 
Constantinople’s power was already waning by the time of the Fourth “Crusade”. I bet you didn’t know that Constantinople had been in a state of civil war for years before the “Crusaders” (a Crusade is only a war which was called for by the Pope) sacked Constaninople.
 
onstantinople’s power was already waning by the time of the Fourth “Crusade”. I bet you didn’t know that Constantinople had been in a state of civil war for years before the “Crusaders” (a Crusade is only a war which was called for by the Pope) sacked Constaninople.
Yes, I did know this because one of the things I took a particular interest in at uni was byzantine history.

I recommend George Ostrogorsky’s History of the Byzantine State if you’d like a good basic text on what was happening.

The Byzantines were excommunicated by the Latins, and reuniting them with the West was one aim of the Crusades.

Even with the civil problems, Byzantium’s rule was much more competent and secure than the incomnpetent crusader administrations that followed.
 
Yes, in large part due to wars and underhanded dealings with western Christians.
No (and I beg you to cite some evidence for your dubious claims). During the time of the Fourth “Crusade”, Constantinople was in a civil war.

The Roman Empire from the time of Constantine was destined to fail: an empire divided against itself cannot stand.

The way the Roman Empire was setup was really stupid in hindsight. You can’t have 2 capitals with two emperors fighting for control of the same empire.
 
No (and I beg you to cite some evidence for your dubious claims). During the time of the Fourth “Crusade”, Constantinople was in a civil war.

The Roman Empire from the time of Constantine was destined to fail: an empire divided against itself cannot stand.

The way the Roman Empire was setup was really stupid in hindsight. You can’t have 2 capitals with two emperors fighting for control of the same empire.
Huh? This post is bizarre.

There hadn’t been a western Roman rival to Byzantium since the fifth century. After the fall of the west, Byzantium grew into one of the most powerful states in the medieval world. The Empire at Constantinople was unrivaled in sophistication and strength until the Muslim conquests defeated it.

The “Roman setup” had absolutely zero to do with the fall of Constantinople in 1215 and then again in 1453. Byzantium had a completely different government by then, and the west was about as “Roman” as China.

The “civil war” (not really, just bad politics) you mentioned was due to infighting between wealthy families and the Church; that was a problem made worse by the Latins, not better.
 
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pro_universal:
Yes, I did know this because one of the things I took a particular interest in at uni was byzantine history.

I recommend George Ostrogorsky’s History of the Byzantine State if you’d like a good basic text on what was happening.

The Byzantines were excommunicated by the Latins, and reuniting them with the West was one aim of the Crusades.
They were excommunicated by each other. It would also be pretty ironic for one set of heretics (the reason I put “Crusade” in quotes when referring to the Fourth “Crusade” is because the Crusades were Just Wars; and the Fourth was not justified, nor sanctioned by the Holy See) to try and reunite with the west another set.

Even with the civil problems, Byzantium’s rule was much more competent and secure than the incomnpetent crusader administrations that followed.
 
They were excommunicated by each other. It would also be pretty ironic for one set of heretics (the reason I put “Crusade” in quotes when referring to the Fourth “Crusade” is because the Crusades were Just Wars; and the Fourth was not justified, nor sanctioned by the Holy See) to try and reunite with the west another set.
It was condemned after the fact for violting laws of war. Reuniting the west and east was a factor in every crusade, because the eastern Church wasn’t a “real Church” in Rome’s eyes.
 
Huh? This post is bizarre.

There hadn’t been a western Roman rival to Byzantium since the fifth century. After the fall of the west, Byzantium grew into one of the most powerful states in the medieval world. The Empire at Constantinople was unrivaled in sophistication and strength until the Muslim conquests defeated it.

The “Roman setup” had absolutely zero to do with the fall of Constantinople in 1215 and then again in 1453. Byzantium had a completely different government by then, and the west was about as “Roman” as China.
Suuuuuure it didn’t. When the Pope crowned Charlamagne the Holy Roman Emperor, it sure ticked off his rivals in the East and made relations pretty sour because they thought they were the rightful heirs to the title Roman Emperor.
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pro_universal:
The “civil war” (not really, just bad politics) you mentioned was due to infighting between wealthy families and the Church; that was a problem made worse by the Latins, not better.
 
It was condemned after the fact for violting laws of war. Reuniting the west and east was a factor in every crusade, because the eastern Church wasn’t a “real Church” in Rome’s eyes.
And neither was the Western Church a “real Church” in the eyes of the East.
 
Semper Fi,

Read some primary sources. Here’s one on the fourth crusade:

fordham.edu/halsall/basis/villehardouin.html

Charlemagne’s system was again, about as Roman as China. He wanted them to acknowledge his title, they didn’t, and Europe remained as uncivilized and barbaric as it had always been.

The Emperors at Constantinople kept the title of Emperor of the Romans. They were in fact the heirs to the Empire.
 
And neither was the Western Church a “real Church” in the eyes of the East.
Right.

What does this have to do with explaining the crusades as justified? There wasn’t a Byzantine crusade against the west at this time.
 
Right.

What does this have to do with explaining the crusades as justified? There wasn’t a Byzantine crusade against the west at this time.
Since when have I even defended the Fourth Crusade? The Pope never wanted Constantinople sacked… he wanted their help in defending Christian lands in the East (specifically Palestine). The knights of the Fourth “Crusade” acted on their own without the sanction, or even the knowledge of the Church. The Fourth “Crusade” was an unjustified war which is WHY I am putting it in quotes… it wasn’t a real crusade.
 
Since when have I even defended the Fourth Crusade? The Pope never wanted Constantinople sacked… he wanted their help in defending Christian lands in the East (specifically Palestine). The knights of the Fourth “Crusade” acted on their own without the sanction, or even the knowledge of the Church. The Fourth “Crusade” was an unjustified war which is WHY I am putting it in quotes… it wasn’t a real crusade.
I just linked you to a primary source written on the subject.

Your conclusions about the fourth crusade are wrong. Read it if you don’t believe me. The Pope knew what was going on, and other considerations led to condemnation, not the fact that it was other Christians.

And to tie this in with the thread, the Fourth Crusade was part of a pattern of Crusades that helped to finally destroy the Byzantine Empire.

Is this something to be proud of?
 
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