The Crusades - would you join?

[clmowry]

This has got to be the weirdest thread ever on this forum.
:whacky: :dancing: :hypno:

Let me guess, those who actually said yes to this question would probably opt to wear full armor, complete with sword and shield and drink ale out of leather mugs.

Go get 'em tigers!

ggrrrrrr!

You type that like it’s a bad thing.

puts away his halberd and heads back inside to drink ale from his leather mug

Chuck

 

[Valke2]

Here’s a question I’ve been thinking about. If the Pope called for the Crusades again, would you join?

Please be gentle.

no.

 

[Valke2]

If God tells you to go kill someone, go talk to someone first.

 

[Teflon93]

If God tells you to go kill someone, go talk to someone first.

So who would you recommend King David should have talked to?

 

[benedicter]

If God tells you to go kill someone, go talk to someone first.

I think I agree with Valke on this one. I would imagine in reality that if the pressure became that great we would meet that head on with martyrdom, as they do in Darfur, Indonesia (Malucca Islands 9000 martyred in 2000 - did you know that?) and I would in all respect include the Holocaust victims and any others killed for the Judeo-Christian heritage and witness. Christians would in fact act like early Christians and be killed. Remember in the Book of Revelation the triumph of the enemy is the blood on their hands of the martyrs.

 

[Valke2]

So who would you recommend King David should have talked to?

Who did God tell him to kill?

 

[benedicter]

War is always difficult. It is easier in hindsight to say what should have been done or not. Would any of us say the allies should not have fought for the Nazis. Of course the result was imperfect as half of Europe ended up in Communism and continued suffering greatly. Whatever we do will be imperfect and short of the mark. But to stand by and let evil knowly flourish for a perceived higher morality is to become the handmaid of evil (not my original phrase - copied it off Melanie Phillips - look her up in the internet - brilliant woman, Jewish writer for the Daily Mail in Britain).

As Jesus say “no greater love …than to lay down ones life for ones neighbour”. The strong must protect the weak from those who would harm them.

 

[grandfather]

St. Bernard of Clavieux, told the Crusaders heading to the Holy Land, that peace would never be won through the sword, but only through prayer. Jim

Saint Catherine of Sienna a stigmatist who ate no food for decades encouraged a crusade. Saint Dominic blessed the one against the Cathars before the army went out to defeat them. Saint Joan a mystic, martyred by Catholics, was the youngest person to lead a national army, the French, in defeat of the English and without her France would be Anglican; no Therese of Lisiuex, Miraculous Medal, devotion to the Sacred Heart, Bernadette and Lourdes, Immaculate Conception. In her vision of Jesus, Catherine was told that knights were of equal value as monks.

 

[Valke2]

I think I agree with Valke on this one. I would imagine in reality that if the pressure became that great we would meet that head on with martyrdom, as they do in Darfur, Indonesia (Malucca Islands 9000 martyred in 2000 - did you know that?) and I would in all respect include the Holocaust victims and any others killed for the Judeo-Christian heritage and witness. Christians would in fact act like early Christians and be killed. Remember in the Book of Revelation the triumph of the enemy is the blood on their hands of the martyrs.

I just meant if you wake up in the middle of the night and you hear God telling you to kill someone, it would be a good idea to first talk it over with your spouse, religous leader, etc.

 

[chris_molter]

I just meant if you wake up in the middle of the night and you hear God telling you to kill someone, it would be a good idea to first talk it over with your spouse, religous leader, etc.

Agreed, but what has that to do with the original topic?

 

[bobzills]

As Jesus say “no greater love …than to lay down ones life for ones neighbour”. The strong must protect the weak from those who would harm them.

He also said Blessed are the peacemakers and turn the other cheek:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.” (Matthew 5:38-42,)
“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.” (Luke 6:27-31. )

 

[Teflon93]

I just meant if you wake up in the middle of the night and you hear God telling you to kill someone, it would be a good idea to first talk it over with your spouse, religous leader, etc.

That is of course the salient point, my snarky response notwithstanding.

God clearly did support wars of aggression and outright atrocities in the past, though. God being God, I have no doubt His decision was just.

 

[benedicter]

Yes agreed Bobzills. However the Just War teaching is accepted teaching in the Church and I support that. It has clear guidelines. To have let the Nazis flourish throughout Europe and utterly decimate the Jewish population and all others they took a dislike to would not qualify as ‘Peacemaking’. The early Church did not take up arms but were martyred under persecution. As Jesus clearly taught we would be persecuted for the faith as they were he was saying don’t resist, love your persecuters etc. I think he was a realist. In talking to the soldiers in the Gospel when they asked what should they do. He didn’t say leave and put down your arms, he said don’t grumble about your pay etc. I haven’t looked up the exact quote but it is well known.

 

[bobzills]

However the Just War teaching is accepted teaching in the Church and I support that. It has clear guidelines.

I will have to disagree that there can be a just war waged with today’s nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. In the case of war today, the loss of innocent civilian life in unavoidable, so the just war theory will not apply. Every war waged today will be unjust to the innocent victim.
see:
paxchristiusa.org/
paxchristi.net/

 

[Teflon93]

I will have to disagree that there can be a just war waged with today’s nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. In the case of war today, the loss of innocent civilian life in unavoidable, so the just war theory will not apply. Every war waged today will be unjust to the innocent victim.
see:
paxchristiusa.org/
paxchristi.net/

There has only been one war waged with nuclear weapons, of course. Chemical weapons were used in WWI but have seen limited use since then, as during the Iran/Iraq War. Biological weapons have a much longer pedigree, especially of the cruder variety, but the sophisticated ones are quite difficult to develop and deploy, as seen by the anthrax attacks.

All of which is just to illuminate that the vast majority of conflicts feature deployment of none of these weapons.

And if they did, the Church would oppose them under Just War doctrine, as anyone with recourse to that Top Secret document known as the Catechism of the Catholic Church will discover upon, you know, reading it.

 

[Brendan]

I collect firearms, gunsmith, practice rain and I am a vet who still both follows and studies politics and the military. Not only would I join, but I am highly capable of training, arming, and leading a large group…

I’m a former tanker, I’d do the same

 

[Brendan]

I will have to disagree that there can be a just war waged with today’s nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. **In the case of war today, the loss of innocent civilian life in unavoidable, so the just war theory will not apply. Every war waged today will be unjust to the innocent victim. **

The loss of innocent life has always been a part of warfare, Modern weapons and logisitics make innocent casualties far LESS likely than in past wars.

So if there were Just Wars in the past ( like the Crusades and WW-II) with their large loss of life, modern warfare is actually even MORE just.

So that part of your argument rings hollow.

 

[Teflon93]

The loss of innocent life has always been a part of warfare, Modern weapons and logisitics make innocent casualties far LESS likely than in past wars.

So if there were Just Wars in the past ( like the Crusades and WW-II) with their large loss of life, modern warfare is actually even MORE just.

So that part of your argument rings hollow.

Excellent point.

Many on this board might not realize that in military history, the invasion of Iraq stands alone in terms of the extremely low casualty count—on BOTH sides.

We lost more people in WWII training exercises for D-Day than in Iraq—not that every life lost isn’t precious and tragically mourned.

This is a direct result of the American way of war, itself part of a long Western tradition driven in no small part by the Catholic Church and her concerns for the victims of war.

 

[Beautiful]

Yes I would. It sounds like dirty job but yes I would join.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Here’s a question I’ve been thinking about. If the Pope called for the Crusades again, would you join?

Please be gentle.

No. I don’t believe there is any room in the Gospel for defending it by violence or for spreading it by force. ​