Hey BCven.I was talking to a Protestant friend and the issue of the Crusades came up. I don’t know much about them and had trouble justifying the wars. Can anyone offer some resources or information on either how the Church justifies them and a good source for general information on the matter? I didn’t find any tracks on the site.
Thanks!
Uh…the Crusades were justifiable? Hm. That’s kind of interesting. I mean, maybe to the people who were fighting in them, but I don’t think you can say people who go kick a bunch of Muslims and Jews out of Jerusalem because we think the Holy Land belongs to us is really nice. I think it speaks to the nature of the wars that Saladin was tons nicer to Jews and Christians than Richard the Lionhearted was to Jews and Muslims.It is not a whole lot different than World War II. No one really questions the need to stop Hitler and Hirohito and company. Some of the things we did to win that war were justifiable in our minds at the time in the heat of the struggle, but in retrospect carpet bombing of major cities, the two atom bombs on Japan, numerous other smaller items like sometimes not taking prisoners, and the like are at least questionable today. Than, even if our presence in Iraq is justifiable, the amount of collateral damage to civilians will be questioned by our descendants. The Crusades were justifiable war, but even in justifiable war very nasty things usually happen. It is the nature of war.
Were we justified in joining the allies in the war against Hitler? I don’t agree that we have to stretch anything and yes there were some crusaders who committed war crimes, just as happened at Mai Lai in Viet Nam, but one of them was not Richard the Lion Hearted and the story about the streets of Jerusalem running with blood were just that, stories. Somewhere you have picked a very un-historical notion of the Crusades.Uh…the Crusades were justifiable? Hm. That’s kind of interesting. I mean, maybe to the people who were fighting in them, but I don’t think you can say people who go kick a bunch of Muslims and Jews out of Jerusalem because we think the Holy Land belongs to us is really nice. I think it speaks to the nature of the wars that Saladin was tons nicer to Jews and Christians than Richard the Lionhearted was to Jews and Muslims.
Anyway. I guess you could say they were justifiable if you stretched some stuff.
I don’t think the Church as a whole justifies them. Many of the actions taken as part of the Crusades were clearly wrong. Military action aimed at protecting Eastern Christians from Muslim aggression was legitimate in principle. But those two statements leave a lot of room for doubt and discussion.I was talking to a Protestant friend and the issue of the Crusades came up. I don’t know much about them and had trouble justifying the wars. Can anyone offer some resources or information on either how the Church justifies them and a good source for general information on the matter? I didn’t find any tracks on the site.
Thanks!
The Fourth Crusade was a real disaster and most certainly it was morally wrong for Catholic crusaders to rape all those Eastern Orthodox nuns and to steal all those priceless artifacts from the Eastern Orthodox Churches and place them in Roman Catholic Churches.I don’t think the Church as a whole justifies them. Many of the actions taken as part of the Crusades were clearly wrong. Military action aimed at protecting Eastern Christians from Muslim aggression was legitimate in principle. But those two statements leave a lot of room for doubt and discussion.
Edwin
They were, of course, excommunicated by the Pope for attacking Constantinople. Some 2,000 Byzantines, including combatants, died during it. Shortly before that, the Byzantines had massacred some 10,000 Italian noncombatants in Constantinople. It was a harsh age.The Fourth Crusade was a real disaster and most certainly it was morally wrong for Catholic crusaders to rape all those Eastern Orthodox nuns and to steal all those priceless artifacts from the Eastern Orthodox Churches and place them in Roman Catholic Churches.
Actually, they were already excommunicated before ever attacking Constantinople. They did the same thing at an Italian island and were excommunicated then.They were, of course, excommunicated by the Pope for attacking Constantinople. Some 2,000 Byzantines, including combatants, died during it. Shortly before that, the Byzantines had massacred some 10,000 Italian noncombatants in Constantinople. It was a harsh age.
However, what happened to all the precious and priceless artifacts which were stolen and looted from the Eastern Orthodox Churches? Weren’t they transported to the West and accepted and placed in Roman Catholic Churches? For example, there were priests’ cloaks, censors, holy water vessels,crosses, chandeliers, hyssops, ciboriums, candelabras, plates of gold and silver, relics, works of art by famous masters, icons, gold jeweled crowns, etc., all stolen from the Eastern Orthodox and placed in Roman Catholic Churches in the West?They were, of course, excommunicated by the Pope for attacking Constantinople. Some 2,000 Byzantines, including combatants, died during it. Shortly before that, the Byzantines had massacred some 10,000 Italian noncombatants in Constantinople. It was a harsh age.
Agreed. They were told they would be excommunicated automatically if they attacked any Christian people.Actually, they were already excommunicated before ever attacking Constantinople. They did the same thing at an Italian island and were excommunicated then.
In Christ,
Rand
Doubtless some were. Looters, including Byzantine emperors, often shared their loot with the church. We do not now know whether the various churches bought them or even knew what their origin was. I don’t have an inventory, and I doubt anyone else does either. Many claims could be made at this time, including by the Turks who could argue that anything old that looks Byzantine should be “restored” to the “people of Constantinople”, and put in a museum. But having been involved many times in litigation in which objects are claimed when those who claim them were alive when the alleged wrongful taking took place and when the litigation was carried out, I very much question how validly such claims could be made. It might be noted that the Byzantines also seized Latin churches, lock, stock and barrel. What became of all that stuff? I doubt any reliable inventory of that exists either, but I suspect there are some unpedigreed items in Orthodox churches here and there that have a Latin appearance to them.However, what happened to all the precious and priceless artifacts which were stolen and looted from the Eastern Orthodox Churches? Weren’t they transported to the West and accepted and placed in Roman Catholic Churches? For example, there were priests’ cloaks, censors, holy water vessels,crosses, chandeliers, hyssops, ciboriums, candelabras, plates of gold and silver, relics, works of art by famous masters, icons, gold jeweled crowns, etc., all stolen from the Eastern Orthodox and placed in Roman Catholic Churches in the West?
Yes, that seems to be the attitude of the Catholic Church, at least at that time, that all of this precious loot which was stolen from the Greek Churches actually belonged to the Roman Catholic Church so there was no harm in seizing it. And if you would go to St. Mark’s in Venice, or even read about it, you will see many of the items on display.Since the Fourth Crusade was post-schism (and I’ll stipulate that the East claims the West is schismatic and vice-versa) can it be definitively be said that the “loot” of the fourth Crusade did not belong to the Catholic Church all along? Does the Catholic Church have the primary claim to Hagia Sophia? It could certainly be argued that it does. .
I don’t think the Turks have made a claim as of this writing.Yes, that seems to be the attitude of the Catholic Church, at least at that time, that all of this precious loot which was stolen from the Greek Churches actually belonged to the Roman Catholic Church so there was no harm in seizing it. And if you would go to St. Mark’s in Venice, or even read about it, you will see many of the items on display.
However, much of the booty is in Catholic Churches today. For example, the Church of St. Mark’s in Venice is adorned inside and out with Byzantine spoils. Visible in the exterior, west facade, you will see columns, capitals, and sculptures taken from Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, including the four gilded horses above the main portal. Inside you will see things such as a white alabaster, gold, silver and enamel, 6-lobed pate which holds an enameled bust of Christ with a metal rim adorned with cabochon jewels - located now in the Treausry of St. Mark’s Church but was part of the booty taken from the Orthodox during the Fourth Crusade. Obviously, these stolen items should be returned to the Greek Orthodox Church.I don’t think the Turks have made a claim as of this writing.
This tired old complaint belongs in the non-Catholic section, where it was relegated before. It is, of course, interesting that 2,000 Byzantines died INCLUDING COMBATANTS. The Byzentines murdered 10,000 Italians shortly before and thoroughly looted their homes, churches and property. It was a harsh age. Emperor Isaac Angelus and his son actually invited the Crusaders to Constantinople, to put them back on the throne when Isaac had been deposed and blinded by his usurping brother. The Crusaders, though excommunicated for the whole deal, did their part. Isaac and his son did not. Their part of the deal was to pay the Crusaders’ expenses, provide transport to Palestine and provide 10,000 Byzantine soldiers for the Crusade. They were again deposed when the ruling class found out about the deal, and the next usurper tried to starve the Crusaders outside the city walls. Then, insanely, the Byzantines attacked the crusaders outside the walls, but apparently were not aware of the fighting ability of the Franks. 8,000 overwhelmingly outnumbered but enraged Franks then took a city of a million people. Even more insanely, Isaac and his sone had brought Enrico Dandolo, the Doge of Venice into the deal. Dandolo had been blinded by the Byzantines previously, and narrowly escaped with his life when the earlier massacre of Italians took place. It’s amazing that no more than 2,000 (again, including Byzantine soldiers) died in it, and it’s amazing that Dandolo left a stone on a stone.However, much of the booty is in Catholic Churches today. For example, the Church of St. Mark’s in Venice is adorned inside and out with Byzantine spoils. Visible in the exterior, west facade, you will see columns, capitals, and sculptures taken from Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, including the four gilded horses above the main portal. Inside you will see things such as a white alabaster, gold, silver and enamel, 6-lobed pate which holds an enameled bust of Christ with a metal rim adorned with cabochon jewels - located now in the Treausry of St. Mark’s Church but was part of the booty taken from the Orthodox during the Fourth Crusade. Obviously, these stolen items should be returned to the Greek Orthodox Church.
According to Speros Vryonis, Byzantium and Europe, p.152:
“The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a whore who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church’s holy vessels.”