The Crusades

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William_II

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Do the Crusades contradict the moral truth of the Roman Catholic Church? Was it right for Catholics to receive a papal blessing to kill in battle?
 
I think you would do well if you studied the history of the crusades. Things are a bit more complicated than the “we fight for God” treatment that we usually see.
 
I’m going to do something rare here and defend the church. The Crusades wasnt exactly a bright point for Christianity, but it wasnt just the usual black and white reason of Christians vs Heathens, even if that did play in. The Church was more a way for the officers to whip the troops into a religious frenzy, so they’d be more willing to kill stuff.
 
If there were ever just wars in world history, they were the crusades.

DEUS VULT!

 
“Deus vult” means “God wills it.” Does the Holy Trinity want humans to kill other humans?
 
Considering the nature of the First Crusade based on my knowledge of it, I do not think it was at all bad.

Tim summed it up quite well (the other Tim, of course).
 
William_II said:
“Deus vult” means “God wills it.” Does the Holy Trinity want humans to kill other humans?
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God wills the liberty and exaltation of Holy Mother Church and the defeat of those who would oppress her. In the context of a just war, casualties are absolutely acceptable.
 
Dauphin said:
God wills the liberty and exaltation of Holy Mother Church and the defeat of those who would oppress her. In the context of a just war, casualties are absolutely acceptable.
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What does this have to do with the crusades ? :confused:
 
I voted yes, thinking in particular of the First Crusade.

The First Crusade especially was a defensive crusade. Byzantine Emperor Alexius I Comnenus specifically asked Pope Urban II to send warriors to expel the Turks from Asia Minor and Jerusalem. Looking ahead at the next five hundred years of attempted, and sometimes successful, conquest of European territory by the Turks one could argue that all the Crusades, including the one to free Spain from the Moors, were essentially defensive actions.
 
Hesychios said:
What does this have to do with the crusades ? :confused:
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C’mon now. You may not be aware, but the Byzantine Empire contained a very noble and ancient Christian Church, whose liberty was threatened by the advance of the Seljuk Turks.
 
basically the muslims were (on a whole) were coming into catholic towns/cities and taking/killing catholics-------They(the muslims) were barbariac and we took it back-----we cant be wimps----like the scriptures say “there is a time for war and a time for peace…”----
 
Rogerteder said:
basically the muslims were (on a whole) were coming into catholic towns/cities and taking/killing catholics-------They(the muslims) were barbariac and we took it back-----we cant be wimps----like the scriptures say “there is a time for war and a time for peace…”----
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Even that is more than a generalization about the Crusades
 
Dauphin said:
C’mon now. You may not be aware, but the Byzantine Empire contained a very noble and ancient Christian Church, whose liberty was threatened by the advance of the Seljuk Turks.
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SanJudas said:
I voted yes, thinking in particular of the First Crusade.

The First Crusade especially was a defensive crusade. Byzantine Emperor Alexius I Comnenus specifically asked Pope Urban II to send warriors to expel the Turks from Asia Minor and Jerusalem. Looking ahead at the next five hundred years of attempted, and sometimes successful, conquest of European territory by the Turks one could argue that all the Crusades, including the one to free Spain from the Moors, were essentially defensive actions.
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The emperor asked for mercenaries to help him drive out the Turks. That is clear.

What showed up were not mercenaries and they did not help him drive out the Turks, or even make any pretense in that direction, they quickly carved out fiefs for themselves, not under the Byzantine emperor, and these not at the expense of the Turks for the most part. They do not appear to have had any intention of doing what they were invited for from the very beginning. So that is no excuse whatever.

This doesn’t even begin to address their behavior on the first crusade, nor the fact that there were no Latin Catholics there to protect…none.

I am pretty much in agreement with what you state about Spain but I don’t think that long-running series of wars to reconquer the land really qualifies as a crusade. Parts of it perhaps were genuine efforts to carry the cross, but most of it was just small states trying to make themselves bigger and stronger at the expense of a once formidable opponent that was getting weaker and weaker as it shrank in size. It didn’t matter that the state was Muslim, if it had been Christian they would have been warring for the land just the same.
 
Hesychios said:
This doesn’t even begin to address their behavior on the first crusade, nor the fact that there were no Latin Catholics there to protect…none.
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Latin Catholics aren’t the only ones who need protecting. The behavior of the crusaders in certain instances was certainly indefensible (eg. murders of Jews by travelling crusaders), and the development of the crusader kingdoms may have been a bad idea - disrespectful of the rights of the Byzantine Empire, but the crusades, as a matter of principle, were perfectly just.
 
Dauphin said:
Latin Catholics aren’t the only ones who need protecting. The behavior of the crusaders in certain instances was certainly indefensible (eg. murders of Jews by travelling crusaders), and the development of the crusader kingdoms may have been a bad idea - disrespectful of the rights of the Byzantine Empire, but the crusades, as a matter of principle, were perfectly just./quote] Ok, I won’t argue with the matter of principle.
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William_II said:
Do the Crusades contradict the moral truth of the Roman Catholic Church? Was it right for Catholics to receive a papal blessing to kill in battle?
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There is a lot of second guessing about the crusades. I suggest reading Hillare Belloc’s book The Crusades. There were mistakes made, but honestly I think the world is better of for having had the crusades than not. I think the Church is especially better off for having defended itself from the encroachment of militant Islam.
 
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