The Crusades

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I think that one of the biggest mistakes in interpreting the Crusades is to think that yes, we know their mindset. We don’t. It would be as alien to us as the mindset of Islam. What is missing in this scenario? Oh, OK Pope Urban “decides” all on his own in 1096 that western civilization is going to invade the Holy Land? Why? Why? Why? Oh yes all those greedy younger sons who wouldn’t inherit any land. Really? How many years had Europe been free from Viking raids? Do you mean to tell me that the Pope just up and decided that, yep, we gotta take the Holy Land? Taurine foecal matter. Can we say the Christians on pilgrimage were being slaughtered? Hmmmmmm MY what an interesting concept.
 
PPS Ummmm actually we don’t have a really good record of taking care of our Jewish brethren.
 
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stillsmallvoice:
He thought that that was a real hoot: Christians & Muslims fighting over something that belongs to neither. 🙂
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Enjoy your gift, but don’t forget who gave it to you 😉 .

(and through whom he gave it)
 
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brotherhrolf:
PPS Ummmm actually we don’t have a really good record of taking care of our Jewish brethren.
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An excerpt from G.K. Chesterton:
“It would be nearer the truth” said Father Brown, “to say they were the only people who weren’t persecuted in the Middle Ages. if you wanted to satirize medievalism, you could make a good case by saying that some poor Christian might be burned alive for making a mistake about the Homoousian, while a rich Jew might walk down the street openly sneering at Christ and the Mother of God”.
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The best book I’ve found on the Crusades was written by Hilaire Belloc – “The Crusades” – from 1937. Book is still available from Tan, if I’m not mistaken. Belloc writes a very concise history in which he explains this conflict between Christian and Islamic civilizations, and why the Crusades eventually failed. (The only success was the First Crusade which captured Jerusalem in 1099, but only lasted about 50 years due to the Crusader’s failure to capture Damascus.) Anyway, way back in '37, Belloc issued warnings about impending increases in Islamic strength, which coupled with the decline in European (and American, if you will) Christian civilization, portends a new round of “Crusades” that have an unknown outcome. It’s scary stuff considering the Islamic evil running rampant throughout the world today.
 
Hi all!

Th’odred, you posted:
Enjoy your gift…
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I like to think that we do.
…but don’t forget who gave it to you
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I should hope not; we do so at our peril.

Hospitaller, you posted:
I seriously doubt that actual Crusaders ever made a habit of murdering Jews.
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Except for the Rhine Valley massacres & the burning of the synagogue in Jerusalem (with us inside), the Crusaders didn’t have such a habit.
…some poor Christian might be burned alive for making a mistake about the Homoousian, while a rich Jew might walk down the street openly sneering at Christ and the Mother of God".
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Well, Chesterton certainly knew that while not all medieval Christians were poor, neither were all of my people rich, whatever his motives may have been in depicting things as he did. I should hope that none of my brothers would ever sneer at a faith different from our own (that’s not what our faith teaches) just as I hope that people from other faiths would accord us the same courtesy.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
If I had to be a medieval Jew or a 20th century Jew, I would definitely choose to be a medieval Jew.

I don’t think that all our modern enlightenment has made things easier for the Jewish people, even in this day and age. There seems to be more anti-Semitic people today than there ever has been (a very substantial portion of Middle Eastern Muslims, just for starters).
 
This thread has persuaded me to delve back into history in preparation to defend the Church from more mythological inaccuracies.

Today at my church gift shop I picked up a copy of “What were the Crusades” written by Jonathan Riley-Smith. It appears to be a scholarly work drawing from several sources, giving a pluralist viewpoint in an effort to explain the context and motivations of the Crusades.

I’m sorry I don’t have any specific information at this point, but I will do my best to post important points should this thread survive.

This is an important topic as it is a huge part of not only Catholic history, but the history of the world. As has already been cit4ed here, people even today are influenced by things that happened in that timespan of nearly 500 years. (1025-1500)

Now…regarding Chesterton, although I am not a Chesterton scholar, I have a very orthodox Catholic friend who is…and she also has the utmost respect for the Jewish faith. I do not believe that GKChesterton was anti-semitic as the post above seems to imply, leading me to believe that that quote was taken out of context.

My friends, the Bible is not the only work in print which has been taken out of context. If there is anyone out there now who knows Chesterton, maybe you can put the quote in the correct context. I have no idea.

Great thread. Thanks to the OP for the inspiration to study! 🤓 :tiphat:
 
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JCPhoenix:
Now…regarding Chesterton, although I am not a Chesterton scholar, I have a very orthodox Catholic friend who is…and she also has the utmost respect for the Jewish faith. I do not believe that GKChesterton was anti-semitic as the post above seems to imply, leading me to believe that that quote was taken out of context.

My friends, the Bible is not the only work in print which has been taken out of context. If there is anyone out there now who knows Chesterton, maybe you can put the quote in the correct context. I have no idea.

Great thread. Thanks to the OP for the inspiration to study! 🤓 :tiphat:
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Say what?? How did you reach the conclusion that the quotation is anti-Jewish in nature? It was taken from The Curse of the Golden Cross, and it’s a hypothetical scenario created by Fr. Brown to try and explain the special status medieval Jews were given by the Church.
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Except for the Rhine Valley massacres & the burning of the synagogue in Jerusalem (with us inside), the Crusaders didn’t have such a habit.
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I’m afraid my memory’s a little fuzzy on this point, but weren’t the Rhine Valley killings carried out by peasants before the actual Crusade got started? As for the burning of the Jerusalem synagogue, that was a terrible act, but it hardly justifies implying that the Crusaders routinely killed Jews.
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stillsmallvoice:
Well, Chesterton certainly knew that while not all medieval Christians were poor, neither were all of my people rich, whatever his motives may have been in depicting things as he did. I should hope that none of my brothers would ever sneer at a faith different from our own (that’s not what our faith teaches) just as I hope that people from other faiths would accord us the same courtesy.
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I think you should read the quotation more thoroughly.
 
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JCPhoenix:
Today at my church gift shop I picked up a copy of “What were the Crusades” written by Jonathan Riley-Smith. It appears to be a scholarly work drawing from several sources, giving a pluralist viewpoint in an effort to explain the context and motivations of the Crusades.
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After reading the Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades, I’m no huge fan of Jonathan Riley-Smith. He’s a historian of the highest calabre, but he is influenced by certain prejudices.

He over-emphasizes piligrimage as an influence on the Crusades, under-emphasizes the growing cosmopolitan nature of 11th century Europe, and dismisses (or at least deminishes to a large degree) the real threat presented by the Seljuk Turks and European fear of the Muslim peoples. He also holds to the old theory that churchmen were primarily motivated to call for the first Crusade by the Peace and the Truce of God, and were merely interested in keeping the peace in Europe. Such a view does not account for the fact that both churchman and nobleman were of the same caste with much the same attitudes and tastes (including matters concerning secular governance, economy, peace and even war).

In my opinion he doesn’t spend enough time investigating the evolution of Christian militancy, from rather strigent penances for killing in battle in the 9th century to the radical opposite of recieving indulgences for the same in the 11th century. Such a transformation begs careful study. He didn’t. In fact, the contributers of the OIHC made it seem that this Christian militancy was quite natural in the medieval period, but in fact was utterly absent until the advent of the 11th century.
 
Hi all!

Th’odred, you posted:
I don’t think that all our modern enlightenment has made things easier for the Jewish people, even in this day and age. There seems to be more anti-Semitic people today than there ever has been (a very substantial portion of Middle Eastern Muslims, just for starters).
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You’ve got a point.

JC Phoenix, you posted:
Now…regarding Chesterton, although I am not a Chesterton scholar, I have a very orthodox Catholic friend who is…and she also has the utmost respect for the Jewish faith. I do not believe that GKChesterton was anti-semitic as the post above seems to imply, leading me to believe that that quote was taken out of context.
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I’ve heard that some people allege that Chesterton was anti-Semitic. Not being familiar with either the man or his writings, I’ll stay out of this one. We Jews do the cause of fighting real anti-Semitism a disservice by hurling the label “Anti-Semite” at everyone who merely either does not love us or happens to disagree with us (the same way, I think, Catholics do the cause of fighting anti-Catholic bigotry a disservice by hurling the label of “Anti-Catholic” at everyone who merely either does not love Catholics or happens to diagree with them).

Hospitaller, you posted:
…but weren’t the Rhine Valley killings carried out by peasants before the actual Crusade got started?
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Correct. This
The undisciplined mobs accompanying the first three Crusades attacked the Jews in Germany, France, and England, and put many of them to death…
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is from the first of the two links I gave in my first post on this thread (it’s the Jewish Encyclopedia entry on the Crusades).
As for the burning of the Jerusalem synagogue, that was a terrible act, but it hardly justifies implying that the Crusaders routinely killed Jews.
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If that is what I implied, I did so inadvertantly. Richard Lionheart was known to be friendly towards us.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
Reading any old quotes must be done in the context of the times.

Today’s PC sensibilities would have been considered foolish to Chesterton or Belloc. Then a catholic EXPECTED a protestant to have a condescending attitude about catholicism. But Jews weren’t exempt either. The word GOYIM has a bit of condescending sneer too it, nu?

Chesterton’s comment may contain some CULTURAL bias against Jews (stereotyped portrayal of the rich Jew), but IMO that is just a man speaking to his own culture, not betraying an internal malicious thought.
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Richard Lionheart was known to be friendly towards us.
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Unless, of course, you were a wealthy Jew living in London while Richard was collecting “contributions” for his crusade.
 
Hi all!

Th’odred, sure he taxed us but…
At the coronation of Richard the Lion Hearted in 1189, Jews bearing handsome gifts were refused entry by officials and pelted by mobs. The story circulated that the king wished them exterminated and many Jews were killed in riots and their stately homes were burned. Richard punished the ringleaders and sought to prevent further outrages and protect his financial interest in “his Jews”.

Link: fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/england_history.htm
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if lending him money bought us protection…

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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