The Crusades

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I apologise if I am using the wrong forum for this!

I have recently been reading about the crusades, but I am aware that the books I am reading are probably from a non-religious viewpoint. I can see that a lot of the violence that occurred during the crusades was wrong, but at the same time I realise that we can’t simply look at them with a modern mindset; war was commonplace, as was killing your enemies. Pagan kingdoms had been converted, and many of the leaders would have come from a history of warrior kings. To then be told you could kill in the name of Christ was surely something that greatly appealed to these men - and thus I can understand why, with the added pains of starvation, dehydration, and constant death around them as they travelled for so long, these soldiers often simply went totally overboard with their killing.

Nonetheless, I would like to know a more Catholic side to the story, and, if possible, an Islamic side, Jewish side and Orthodox side. I know they wanted to free the Holy Lands, but were Christians being badly persecuted? Because often what I have read suggests that they were not treated terribily, and sometimes it is stated that actually things weren’t that bad at all.

Lastly, I know that the Pope has authority over the Church, but was it right for the Popes at the time to grant absolution of sins in return for killing? I mean, I realise he did have the authority to command it, but did he really have the authority to think it was okay? If you understand what I am trying to say here…(forgive me if I’m making no sense!)
I see that others more versed in the Crusades are addressing your questions, but I wanted to offer a reading suggestion.

I really enjoyed reading a great book on the Crusades by Thomas F. Madden called “The New Concise History of the Crusades” (The new being a revised version of the book). He very much takes care to look at the Crusades through the mindset of the time period. It is very thought-provoking and informative. I do not know his religious affiliation but this book does seem to address things from the Catholic historical perspective. He’s very interested in the history and he cites a huge set of historical resources, Christian and Muslim, and lists them in the back of the book. It’s not a long read either. 280p.
 
I see that others more versed in the Crusades are addressing your questions, but I wanted to offer a reading suggestion.

I really enjoyed reading a great book on the Crusades by Thomas F. Madden called “The New Concise History of the Crusades” (The new being a revised version of the book). He very much takes care to look at the Crusades through the mindset of the time period. It is very thought-provoking and informative. I do not know his religious affiliation but this book does seem to address things from the Catholic historical perspective. He’s very interested in the history and he cites a huge set of historical resources, Christian and Muslim, and lists them in the back of the book. It’s not a long read either. 280p.
On the DVD of Ridley Scott’s Kingdom of Heaven they included A&E’s Biography episode on the Crusades, and Thomas Madden had a FEW segments–but once again, Biography showed their ultra-liberal and rather anti-catholic, anti-western bias–when it came Saladin’s taking of Jerusalem, the other commentators were going on and on about Saladin wanting to take revenge for the horrific slaughter by the Crusaders when they had stormed Jerusalem almost 100 years early–and NO comments by Madden were shown–because he would have blown such assertions out of the water. There is NO historical contemporary proof that any muslim considered the Crusader storming of Jerusalem as especialy horrific and atrocious for the time and place and accepted military practice.
 
I recommend “The Crusades” by Zoe Oldenbourg, Pantheon (Random House) 1966, 650 pages. Clear, concise, and extremely well documented. Throws cold water on a lot of the mythology.
 
One doesn’t have to be anti-Catholic to acknowledge that entire Jewish communities were slaughtered wholesale even before the Crusaders left Europe:
I was responding to the OP thread opener, not specifically to your comment. I’m not a historian, but I’d be surprised if one could mention ANY war in which unjust atrocities happened. Such is the nature of war when the bridles of civilized behavior are loosed. Not that that justifies it, but it isn’t surprising.

That said, I sure hope you aren’t claiming that examples of war atrocities are always proof positive that the party guilty is the unjust agressor in the war. If so, the Allies were “bad guys” in WWII because of Dresden and Hiroshima, the Founding Fathers were bad guys in the American revolution because of atrocities commited against Tories, etc.

War is awful, which is why all alternatives should be exhausted before resorting to it and the dictates of Just War theories followed before committing to it. Because once you do, it’s hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
 
I’m not sure such a thing as unbiased history accounts actually exist. It sounds like you’ve already read many of todays secular accounts (written by English speaking historians, which has a historical anti-catholic bias dating back to the protestant reformation). I suggest reading a professional historical account from the catholic perspective, such as “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.” Perhaps not unbiased and not to be read as the ONLY source you’ll ever consult. But a rather nice antidote to the inherently anti-catholic approach typical in English language history. Consider it fair counter-balance and it will serve you well.
What would be a “professional historical account from the Catholic perspective” about the Jewish aspect of the Crusades? As a Jew and as someone with an academic background in Jewish history between 70 c.e - 1948 c.e., it is more than a little difficult for me to view the Crusades in any kind of positive light.

During the crusades between 1/4 - 1/2 of European Jewry were massacred by Catholic crusaders crying “convert or die”. These murderous pogroms, which repeated themselves in different crusades, were not ordered by the Catholic Church and in many cases the local clergy even made an attempt to protect the Jews. So what caused so many Catholics to murder so many Jews? Was it for revenge because the Jews killed Jesus, or poisoned wells or caused the black plague or used the blood of murdered Christian children in their rituals and in making matzah? Or was it an act of self-defense perhaps, because the Jewish defenseless men, women and children were a physical threat to the Crusaders passing through Europe on their way to replace the current occupiers of our eternal homeland with their occupation of the Jewish homeland?

What had the Jews done that justifies and explains their mass murder during the Crusades?

For historical sources written in proximity to the above events see:
The Jew in the Medieval World: A Sourcebook, 315-1791
books.google.co.il/books?id=PCalmtflYtEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=iw&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
What caused that? A dark side of human nature in which people are very easily roused to a killing mob frenzy and are highly susceptible to scapegoatism. This appears to be a characteristic NOT unique to catholic and christian civilizations (certain episodes in the bible come to mind). Human nature is very prone to jealousy and to scapegoating. Jewish culture and tradition contain some VERY healthy and productive values: valuing education highly, valuing good sanitation highly (ritual and otherwise), the moral obligation to assist ones family and relatives, the recognition of human sin and the need for repentance. Add in the historical Jewish tendency to NOT intermarry with gentiles (until very recently, anyways) and these strong healthy values tended to make for thriving Jewish communities envied by outsiders. Add in again that in many parts of the christian world, lending money for any interest at all was forbidden for christians (the unintended result being christians in that era simply didn’t lend money), while no such moral restriction existed within Judaism. You must admit, that’s a nice leg up economically too (assuming you have some money to lend out for said interest). None of this excuses or lessens the culpability of the people who did what they did. But trying to understand people who do evil isn’t the same as excusing it. And I hope you realize the importance of not responding to one sort of ideological injustice with another (asserting inherent bigotry to christianity). Not that you have, but I’ve seen some do it.

Jealousy and scapegoatism combined with weak rule of law and restraints against violence equals periods of violence against those envied and resented. I think that is the simplest explanation for what has happened to Judaism through the centuries. Theological reasons sometimes cited are just excuses trumped up to cover motives that the oppressors were ashamed to admit they had (or perhaps didn’t even realize that they had). That latter part isn’t limited to Jewish pogroms either, mind you. The witch hunts that went on mostly in the the protestant world after the reformation were supposedly about spiritual concerns, but were also spurred by uglier motivations underneath. That’s part of the dark side of human nature too. Ever since Cain and Able, these problems have been with us. It’s why we needed a Savior, a Messiah.
 
What would be a “professional historical account from the Catholic perspective” about the Jewish aspect of the Crusades? As a Jew and as someone with an academic background in Jewish history between 70 c.e - 1948 c.e., it is more than a little difficult for me to view the Crusades in any kind of positive light.

During the crusades between 1/4 - 1/2 of European Jewry were massacred by Catholic crusaders crying “convert or die”. These murderous pogroms, which repeated themselves in different crusades, were not ordered by the Catholic Church and in many cases the local clergy even made an attempt to protect the Jews. So what caused so many Catholics to murder so many Jews? Was it for revenge because the Jews killed Jesus, or poisoned wells or caused the black plague or used the blood of murdered Christian children in their rituals and in making matzah? Or was it an act of self-defense perhaps, because the Jewish defenseless men, women and children were a physical threat to the Crusaders passing through Europe on their way to replace the current occupiers of our eternal homeland with their occupation of the Jewish homeland?

What had the Jews done that justifies and explains their mass murder during the Crusades?

For historical sources written in proximity to the above events see:
The Jew in the Medieval World: A Sourcebook, 315-1791
books.google.co.il/books?id=PCalmtflYtEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=iw&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
God punishment! It’s in OT…
God left you on the devil’s “hand”, who used other people as pupets to do his will…
This doesn’t remove their responsibility…
Would pogroms have been a cultural thing in western europe, you would have dissapeared long time ago…
 
What would be a “professional historical account from the Catholic perspective” about the Jewish aspect of the Crusades? As a Jew and as someone with an academic background in Jewish history between 70 c.e - 1948 c.e., it is more than a little difficult for me to view the Crusades in any kind of positive light.

During the crusades between 1/4 - 1/2 of European Jewry were massacred by Catholic crusaders crying “convert or die”. These murderous pogroms, which repeated themselves in different crusades, were not ordered by the Catholic Church and in many cases the local clergy even made an attempt to protect the Jews. So what caused so many Catholics to murder so many Jews? Was it for revenge because the Jews killed Jesus, or poisoned wells or caused the black plague or used the blood of murdered Christian children in their rituals and in making matzah? Or was it an act of self-defense perhaps, because the Jewish defenseless men, women and children were a physical threat to the Crusaders passing through Europe on their way to replace the current occupiers of our eternal homeland with their occupation of the Jewish homeland?

What had the Jews done that justifies and explains their mass murder during the Crusades?

For historical sources written in proximity to the above events see:
The Jew in the Medieval World: A Sourcebook, 315-1791
books.google.co.il/books?id=PCalmtflYtEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=iw&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
it should not have happen at all and there is nothing to justify it.
 
I really liked Sword and Cross. It’s a lecture series on CD, not a book. It’s out of print, but still availble from some sellers:

amazon.com/Sword-Cross-Medieval-Crusades-Professor/dp/076077823X

I wouldn’t say that it has either a pro-Catholic view or an anti-Catholic one. Rather, it’s more of an interesting-thing-that-happened-in-the-past view. Actually, I find most scholarly books to have this perspective.

In the crusades, there were some noble things that happened, some things with good intentions but bad consequences, some ridiculous and funny things, and some really sad things (like the anti-Semitic attacks in Germany that were inspired by crusade ideology, but not endorsed by the church).

Anyway, I thought this series was really good. It looked at the crusades from all perspectives – that of the Popes, the principal warriors, the principal Muslim defenders, etc. I really enjoyed it, and I have to say that I became very interested in the Catholic church after studying the crusades. I love medieval history, and this period cannot be understood without a good understanding of the church.
 
You can learn by meditating on history, particularly on Jews history.
Unfortunately, politicians don’t want it.
As was written in OT prophecies about Jews, it is also written in the book of revelation about the whole world: “they don’t want to repent”…
 
What had the Jews done that justifies and explains their mass murder during the Crusades?

For historical sources written in proximity to the above events see:
The Jew in the Medieval World: A Sourcebook, 315-1791
books.google.co.il/books?id=PCalmtflYtEC&printsec=frontcover&hl=iw&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
None of it can be morally justified, CP. That’s not to say I’m sure Catholics of the era didn’t offer their reasons. But not all reasoning is the best of reasoning. Adolf Hitler gave his reasons and the KKK had their own reasons.

I take a slightly different view of European Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish history in terms of their antagonistic relationships. In particular I find it a story of white people fighting and butchering other white people.

Some might find that odd but I don’t. The Spanish (many of whom ironically have Jewish blood running their veins) for all their historical blood purity racism couldn’t tell the phenotypic difference between Jews and Spaniards, thus they would often inspect for circumcision. The Nazi’s ran into this problem as well irrespective of their stereotypes of how a “Jew” is supposed to look.

Then is further suggested among the Spaniards when you find out that converso Jews primarily ran the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade throughout the Spanish Americas. And this is given further evidence by the Inquisition records in Americas detailing the Amerindians and black slaves pelting the converso Jews with fruit as they are being walked to their death. Pelting them because their state in life was in large part to do with the converso Jews who worked in - if not administered - the system that enslaved and exploited them. So, this provides some evidence that converso Jews were assimilated into the Catholic Spanish system of racial castes and the converso Jews where therefore integrated into the “whites.”

The Ethiopian Orthodox have been discriminatory and antagonistic towards the Ethiopian Jews too. The Ethiopian Jews of course… being early and ancient converts to Judaism. What happened to the ancient Hebrew Jews I’m not exactly sure but I’m sure their bloodlines remain throughout some of the Arab Jewish families and European Jewish family. But the Jews have been historically a wandering people often persecuted by others in one way or another.

While it may be possible - if some old documents are to be believed - that some Spanish Jews worked with the North African Moors to help insure the Moors successful invasion of the Spanish kingdoms, that still would not be justifiable reasons for massacring Jews.

To put it simply: Some Catholics were just evil people. Just like some Protestants. Overall, I think the Jews have a much better historical record and historical culture of dealing with other peoples that are the “other” or not them. Unlike Catholics. European Catholics haven’t even liked Catholics that were a different race than them. They’ve enslaved (blacks) or exploited (mestizos) their own Catholics.
Jewish culture and tradition contain some VERY healthy and productive values: valuing education highly…
Valuing Western higher education and rationalism is a rather recent thing in the history of Judaism. This really began during the Jewish Reformation that ironically began in Germany (as it’s Christian counterpart did). The Jewish Reformation was largely a liberal movement whereas the Christian Reformation was largely a conservative movement.

Orthodoxy Christianity which might be said to be the Catholicism or Orthodox Christianity of the Jewish world… focused much more on mysteries and oral traditions and took the Torah or Old Testament literally. It does today. I was surprised when a social worker I was meeting with that was an Orthodox Jew stated they believe the earth is only something like 6,000 years old and that they take Genesis literally.

During and after the Jewish Reformation the liberal Jews began dressing like Western Christians (Catholics and Protestants) and enthusiastically embraced rationalism and its fruits of science borne forth among Catholics and Protestants (rationalism more enthusiastically embraced among Protestants than Catholics with its emphasis on sacramentalism and sacred rites). To this very day liberal Jews have distinguished themselves par excellently and disproportionately in the intellectual, academic, and scientific world.

But before the Jewish Reformation the Jews did not usually embrace rationalism and its systems of education to the degree Catholics and Protestants did, and the Orthodox Jews distinguished themselves outwardly in dress (to this day at times - I grew up in an area of Milwaukee not far from an Orthodox Jewish area of town, you would frequently see them walking once or so a week dressed in black with particular styles of black hats, and long curls down the sides of their faces).

It might surprise some but for a long time the liberal Jews of Western Europe often despised the once largely Orthodox Jews of Eastern Europe. They regarded those Jews of Eastern Europe as backwards and ignorant buffoons that epitomized everything of Jewish stereotype.

It should probably come as no surprise that most the Jews that came from Western Europe and Germany during the 1920’s and 1930’s arrived in the United States as members of the middle-class. Those that came from Eastern Europe arrived in the United States as members of the poor. The former became productive and respected members of academia and the latter became prize fighters and often the right-hand men of Italian and Sicilian-American hoodlums, sharing their ghetto neighborhoods.
 
There is this “social responsibility” God asks from us.
How do you see it?
 
It was a very interesting time period because you had two forms of warfare collide. The Turks shot arrows on horseback which was unheard of to the Europeans, and the Europeans wore thick armor and had their own forms of battle and chivalry. Very big clash of cultures.
 
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