The Culpability of the Jews

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GregoryPope said:
There are literally dozens upon dozens of writings that suggest Jewish culpability.
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And the consequence of that would be what, exactly?

I mean, we all know what that used to mean but what practical measures would you take these days to deal with our eternal and persistent naughtiness?
 
Kaninchen said:
And the consequence of that would be what, exactly?

I mean, we all know what that used to mean but what practical measures would you take these days to deal with our eternal and persistent naughtiness?
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No measures at all. I am strictly concerned with theological truth (which I fear has been cast aside for “political correctness”).
 
GregoryPope said:
No measures at all. I am strictly concerned with theological truth (which I fear has been cast aside for “political correctness”).
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Well, that’s pretty meaningless to people who don’t regard it as any kind of truth (theological or otherwise), obviously.

Pogroms are another matter.
 
Don’t tell me, amongst your weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to Bertie Bassett?
 
He’s a Cafeteria Liquoric then?

Truth to tell, I’ve never really been into sweets, even as a child - any kind of fruit, however . . .
 
Ah but the ‘Protocols of the Learned Elders of Fruit Vending’ (all Muslims at my favourite market) hint at even darker plots.
 
chosen_people said:
The Roman Pagans who became the Roman Catholics found themselves in the unenviable position of having previously murdered their god as an anti-Roman zealot. Their solution was to place the blame for their actions on a collective entity called “The Jews”.

The Roman prefect Pilate is depicted in the Christian scriptures as arguing against a frenzied crowd of Jews to not execute Jesus, finally “washing his hands” of the matter. However, we know that Pilate was removed from office in 36 c.e. (some sources early 37 c.e) because of extreme and excessive cruelty to the local Jewish population. This extreme and excessive cruelty included his penchant for the summary execution without trial of thousands of Jews deemed to be anti-Roman zealots.

Jewish involvement according to the Christian scriptures is also found in a trial of Jesus by the Sanhedrin. According to the Christian scriptures ,the Sanhedrin convicts Jesus of blasphemy and sentences him to death. However, they are forced to hand him over for execution as they do not have the power to execute people. There are however a “few” problems with this story of the trial. To begin with, while the Jewish trial of Jesus appears in Mark and Matthew, according to John 18:13-14, there is no trial of Jesus before the Sanhedrin, only a hearing before the High Priest. The Gospel story of the trial is also interesting because of the absolute lack of knowledge by the writers of Jewish law. Every single procedural rule is wrong. Even more incredible, the Gospel authors have Jesus being convicted of the wrong crime, that of blasphemy. Finally, the claim that the Sanhedrin could not execute criminals is contradicted by the Christian scriptures themselves as well as Josephus.

The betrayal of a demigod was a common theme in the mystery-cult religions at the time of Jesus. However, though the Gospels can’t agree on the names of the disciples, the name of the “betrayer” is significant. Judas from Judea from Jew. “Judas the betrayer” (mentioned over 30 times in the Christian scriptures) to “Jews” the “god killers”. The newly discovered Gospel of Judas paints Judas as acting according to Jesus’ plan and as trusted and devoted ally of Jesus in direct contradiction of the canonized Gospels. The story of Judas in the Christian scriptures is rife with contradictions. These include whether there was the involvement of the Devil, the source suggesting the bribe, the naming of Judas as the betrayer at the last supper, the way Judas died, whether Judas was repentant for betraying Jesus, the place where Judas died, who bought “Blood Acre”, and the meaning of the name (not to mention the confusion in Matthew 27:7-10 in citing Jeremiah 32:6-9).

Now the Sadducees are the group of Jews who hold the High Priesthood at the time of Jesus and are the ones who are in tight with the Romans and are the ones who are sticklers to the text without deviation. So why do the Christian scriptures seemingly mix up Pharisees with Sadducees, placing the emphasis and the blame on the Pharisees? The problem was that by the time the Gospels were being written, the Sadducees were gone. To blame the Jews you had to blame the Pharisees.

In condemning “the Jews” for the death of Jesus, the Gospels create the concept of “the Jews” as a unified negative force. On the one hand, it is Jesus’ popularity among the Jews that leads to his death. On the other hand it is “the Jews” as an entity who supposedly seek and are responsible for his death.

The calumnies against the Jews in the Gospels include their declaring to have the blood of Jesus on their heads, they are referred to as snakes, as liars, as the spawn of the Devil.

The Jew is painted as the enemy of God, a person who has rejected God. The Christian scriptures teach “Take my enemies, who would not have me rule over them, bring them here, and kill them before me” (Luke 19:27). Some 1,250 years after God revealed Himself at Sinai before the entire Jewish nation and made an eternal covenant between God and the Jews, a group of Roman Pagans declared themselves the “new Jews” with a “new covenant” and declared that the Jews are a malignant and immoral force.

It is this accusation that the Jews are “Christ killers” that will lead a Catholic Saint to write some 1500 years before Mein Kampf that the Jews are sub human fit only for slaughter. It is this accusation that leads to the Catholic Church blood purity laws in post Inquisition Spain and in the Jesuit order. It is this accusation which will lead the Catholic Church to place the Jews in ghettos, to make them wear clothing marking them as Jews, to prevent them from having basic civil and legal rights. It is this accusation that will culminate in 2000 years of Christian anti-Semitism in the Shoah and the murder of one in every three Jews in the world.

Since the Shoah, especially since Vatican II, the Church has taken real steps to correct attitudes toward the Jewish people. Perhaps a time will come when the Gospels will be edited free of anti-Semitism, when Jews will no longer have to bear either the false accusations or the sins of others.
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Beautiful post! Thanks for sharing.

The Gospels, we have to take into consideration when were written. There was a lot of polictical stuff going on. Any anti.Semitism, I simply ignore. It no longer has a place in our time. Because of my love for Christ. I gladly love all of my brothers, sisters and not just the Christian ones.

Jesus said “Love all others, as I have loved you.” I think this says it all. Especially for any Christian who thinks otherwise.
 
I grew up with some pretty strict and unbalanced Irish nuns off the boat…No offense, Jharek.

They brought up points in these posts. But in my faith, how I understood all of it, considering the many Jews who did come to Christ, that it reflected more on those who rejected Christ, and did not understand His message because of what was in their hearts.

In regards to the other Jews who do not have such sentiments towards Christ as those who condemned Him, I see them as those who God hardened their hearts so that the Church would be more universal in character. I think there are wonderful gifts, especially today, that we can receive and draw on from the practices of Hebrew Catholics.

The Hebrew Catholics have also had their share of misunderstandings and projections by some Catholics. I do not see Christ’s presence in their attitudes either.

The Eucharist to us is the same as the presence of God on the Mercy Seat in the Temple. It is a most profound sacrilege, to which we are also accountable, if we do not give God His due respect in the Eucharist, reverence for His Churches, or allow Him to be blasphemed and spat upon.

I heard on the Catholic radio about wiccans…high priestesses can approach a chalice, and discern which one is the Eucharist…they will steal them for most profane purposes.

As a child reading and hearing the Gospels, when Christ used wording such as ‘brood of vipers’…He was speaking to those who countered Him. Then I saw it as well as a lesson for me, that I better look into my own heart and soul and see where I was with Him. Many times as a child growing up, and the Irish nuns did provide this exercise for me…

I wondered that if I had lived in those ancient times, where would I be? Would I be an accusor and mocker of Christ, or would I follow Him? And the question never provided me an answer in my heart.

So I always saw Christ challenging me, rather than myself seeing myself ‘saved’ because I believed in Him and His message. I am troubled at myself for not living the Gospel better, but I call upon and trust in His mercy and ask Him to help me.
 
I have a question for the other Catholics here. Have any of you ever been to a synogoge?

I went with a beloved family member to a Reformed Synogoge service. It was beautiful! The Rabbi knew I wasn’t Jewish. Since, I didn’t know a word of Hebrew. He made a special effort to thank me for coming.

Anyway, during the service. The Torah is carried around for all to see. I thought this was so beautiful. It brought tears to my eyes. I certainly felt the presense of God.

I wanted to go. Because, I wanted to experience a sense of what Jesus worshiped. This experience, greatly strengthened my own faith. I would love to go to another service, especially during a Jewish Holy Day or days.

You will see the foundation of what we believe.
 
Inishfree said:
I have a question for the other Catholics here. Have any of you ever been to a synogoge?

I went with a beloved family member to a Reformed Synogoge service. It was beautiful! The Rabbi knew I wasn’t Jewish. Since, I didn’t know a word of Hebrew. He made a special effort to thank me for coming.

Anyway, during the service. The Torah is carried around for all to see. I thought this was so beautiful. It brought tears to my eyes. I certainly felt the presense of God.

I wanted to go. Because, I wanted to experience a sense of what Jesus worshiped. This experience, greatly strengthened my own faith. I would love to go to another service, especially during a Jewish Holy Day or days.

You will see the foundation of what we believe.
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it really brings a tear to my eyes that such same people do not accept christ as their savior 😦
 
Yes, I have been invited to the Bat Mitzvah for one of my clients’ granddaughters. I wondered whether or not I should have my head covered…I saw some ladies there with a cap, so I put one on, and prayed with them…Same God.
 
KathleenGee said:
Yes, I have been invited to the Bat Mitzvah for one of my clients’ granddaughters. I wondered whether or not I should have my head covered…I saw some ladies there with a cap, so I put one on, and prayed with them…Same God.
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Yes, same God. I also prayed in the synogoge and felt very comfortabe doing so.
 
chosen_people said:
The Roman Pagans who became the Roman Catholics found themselves in the unenviable position of having previously murdered their god as an anti-Roman zealot. Their solution was to place the blame for their actions on a collective entity called “The Jews”.
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You are very close. The Roman Empire began to fall apart after the crucifixion of Jesus. Constantine (right or wrong) and before becoming Christian (even in the "I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior " evangelical sense) had come to the conclusion that the reason the empire had suffered so many failures was due to its persecution of the Christians. Constantine blamed the Jews for having the Roman Empire execute Jesus thereby causing the empires problems.

In one letter Constantine writes about the Jews “What right opinions can they have, who after murder of the Lord, went out of their minds and are led, not by reason but by uncontrolled passion?” He also appears to believe the Jews actions against Jesus also made them insane and compelled them to attack the Romans which in turn cause the Romans to retaliate and destroy Jerusalem.

Thus began the never-ending tradition of using the Jews as scapegoats.

So if they are cursed, it is only the temporal effects of the sin of killing Jesus for Jesus did forgive the actual sin. Even from a secular point of view it is clear the execution of Jesus was the cause-in-fact for the persecution the Jews have had to endure.

Additionally, if Catholicism is the one true religion established by the god of Abraham (which of course I do) then one can also say that Jews are also cursed in the sense that they are separated from the fullness of their own god’s religion.

It should be noted that these curses are not punishments but only consequences. And in this sense perhaps Christians have also cursed themselves. Perhaps Christians as a whole have betrayed Jesus. After all, the President did say the U.S. is not a Christian nation.
 
  1. The US has always been a country based on Judeo-Christian morals and I would like it to continue that way. In fact, the purpose of the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the US Constitution was to protect the individual state’s right to have its own official religion which some did.
  2. The purpose of the end of my post is that Jews should not be singled out. Chrisitans have often betrayed God.
  3. I’d be curious what point I made that was dubious. Perhaps I can clarify point in question.
 
The actual sin of causing the execution of Jesus was forgiven. However, every action has a ripple-effect through time. The act of getting the Romans to execute Jesus had the unintended consequence causing future generations of Jews to be persecuted.

By the time Constantine became Emperor, the Empire was having some serious problems. Coincidentally, many were similar to the one’s we face today. The Empire had grown so big that it’s society was falling apart. It started taxing farmers so heavily that farmers abandoned their land which cause famines. Romans were not reproducing so they had to make all free men Roman Citizens. They started overprinting money causing horrible inflation.

Constantine came to the conclusion (for a variety of reasons) that the Empire was being punished for its treatment of the Christians. Unfortunately for the Jews, he gave them some of the blame.

In other words, Jews were not merely blamed for killing Jesus, they were being blamed for the problems of society. This is a common theme that has reoccurred over and over again throughout history and it can all be traced back to the Crucifixion. The actions of the Jews that called for the execution of Jesus had a horrible consequence for future Jews (and BTW, many of my ancestors were Spanish Conversos).

I am in favor of tolerating other faiths and even enjoying the company of people of other faiths. However, I view the USA as a Judeo-Christian country. I firmly believe that Jewish and Christian morals are the greatest. I suppose we will have to start another thread for this topic.
 
Inishfree said:
I have a question for the other Catholics here. Have any of you ever been to a synogoge?

I went with a beloved family member to a Reformed Synogoge service. It was beautiful! The Rabbi knew I wasn’t Jewish. Since, I didn’t know a word of Hebrew. He made a special effort to thank me for coming.

Anyway, during the service. The Torah is carried around for all to see. I thought this was so beautiful. It brought tears to my eyes. I certainly felt the presense of God.

I wanted to go. Because, I wanted to experience a sense of what Jesus worshiped. This experience, greatly strengthened my own faith. I would love to go to another service, especially during a Jewish Holy Day or days.

You will see the foundation of what we believe.
Click to expand...
As a Reform Jew, I think it’s good that many Reform Synagogues are going back to the Hebrew liturgy together with English, instead of English-only services. I would also like to return to wearing the prayer shawl (Tallit) in the synagogue. In most Reform Synagogues today it is optional, and many do not wear one. That would also entail touching the Torah with the Tallit and then kissing the Tallit. This is done in all Orthodox and Conservative Synagogues. I’m glad you enjoyed the experience.
 
Jeffe said:
Catholic doctrine and opinionated writings of the early church fathers are two separate entities. Catholic doctrine or dogma are the church’s final stance on a specific subject, however, representatives (i.e. church fathers, clergy, parishioners) have been known to give their personal opinions to certain subject matter as well. So what you’re asking may be two totally different things, unless I am misunderstanding you? In which case…my bad 😉

-Jeffe
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I think this guy hit the nail on the head. Catholic tradition is not based on the writings of the Church fathers, but vice versa. I’ve discussed this before with Protestants The Church Fathers should serve as a witness of the Catholic faith in the early Church, not as an infallible source of truth. We use the writings of the Church Fathers to show that the early Christians believed in things like the real presence, etc. It doesn’t mean that everything they had to say was correct.
 
CompSciGuy said:
I think this guy hit the nail on the head. Catholic tradition is not based on the writings of the Church fathers, but vice versa. I’ve discussed this before with Protestants The Church Fathers should serve as a witness of the Catholic faith in the early Church, not as an infallible source of truth. We use the writings of the Church Fathers to show that the early Christians believed in things like the real presence, etc. It doesn’t mean that everything they had to say was correct.
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Certainly the fathers were not infallible, but how can we contradict a view held by literally every known writer of the time period? It would be one thing for this issue to be a heavily debated in the early church and then finally settled by a council. It is quite another for a view to go unchallenged for centuries upon centuries, then finally contradicted at a council.
 
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