The Culpability of the Jews

[Hail_Linus]

I have a question for the other Catholics here. Have any of you ever been to a synogoge?

I went with a beloved family member to a Reformed Synogoge service. It was beautiful! The Rabbi knew I wasn’t Jewish. Since, I didn’t know a word of Hebrew. He made a special effort to thank me for coming.

Anyway, during the service. The Torah is carried around for all to see. I thought this was so beautiful. It brought tears to my eyes. I certainly felt the presense of God.

I wanted to go. Because, I wanted to experience a sense of what Jesus worshiped. This experience, greatly strengthened my own faith. I would love to go to another service, especially during a Jewish Holy Day or days.

You will see the foundation of what we believe.

I have been to a Conservative Synagogue and an Orthodox Synagogue. I am particularly impressed with Orthodox Judaism.

I have to admit my faith has grown tremendously from learning about Judaism. Of course this makes perfect sense since “Salvation is from the Jews.”

 

[KathleenGee]

I have a mantilla given me, but it really is a shawl. I am getting focused to start getting into the habit of wearing it when I am in devotional prayer.

 

[Inishfree]

I have been to a Conservative Synagogue and an Orthodox Synagogue. I am particularly impressed with Orthodox Judaism.

I have to admit my faith has grown tremendously from learning about Judaism. Of course this makes perfect sense since “Salvation is from the Jews.”

Same for me. I learned more about Judaism in the Catholic Church. Than, a Protestant one. It has certainly deepened my faith. I understand the foundation of it. As I have said before. We have much to thank the Jewish people for.

A priest told me once. “See all of this tradition. We didn’t come up with it on our own. We got it from the Jewish people.”

 

[KathleenGee]

Meltzerboy…

Did I understand that Hebrew Catholic brother correctly?..that the devout Jew prayed 2 hours upon rising?

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzerboy…

Did I understand that Hebrew Catholic brother correctly?..that the devout Jew prayed 2 hours upon rising?

I must confess I am not so devout, being a Reform Jew. However, it is true that the devout Jew upon rising thanks G-d for keeping him and his family alive and begins morning prayer, which may take one or two hours. I remember my grandmother used to pray every morning and it took her a long time because she read Hebrew very slowly and often would repeat certain holy words and phrases several times. She told me that the prayers upon lighting the Sabbath candles on Friday night were the most holy and that was the time she felt closest to G-d.

 

[Inishfree]

There are certain Catholics and Jews who would no doubt disagree (some vehemently) with your noble sentiments, Kathleen. Some Catholics would say you are being too ecumenical; what is the term: judaizing? On the other hand, some Torah Jews, who might take offense at the donning of the prayer shawl (tallit) by non-Jewish men, would say that only Jews can do so by Law. I respectfully disagree with both parties. The sharing of some of our rituals (I realize non-Catholics cannot participate in the Eucharist) is no sin or crime in my view; the promotion of a spirit of unity between us does nothing to destroy our individual religious beliefs and practices, but instead strengthens them. For me, the coming together of our faiths in these ways is the Will of G-d.

Well said!

To answer another poster. Pontius Pilate the roman governor was responsible for the execution of Jesus. He may have believed he was innocent, but he gave the order, regardless. The Jewish people did not have enough political power to order the execution of anyone. There were a few who turned Jesus in to the Roman government. Even Peter betrayed him.

All of this was part of God’s plan.

 

[Inishfree]

I agree. I was just making a general statement.

 

[KathleenGee]

Meltzerboy…

The Hebrew Catholics want us to learn more of our Jewish roots. They want to have a Hebrew Mass. there are a number of Hebrew Catholic priests now.

They have on www.hebrewcatholic.org…some series on the Church and Israel. I really enjoy learning my Catholic faith from a Jewish Catholic because I am learning it again from those who are from the culture of Sacred Scripture.

I think they want us Gentiles to become more deeply devout, to understand the Passover better, to pray more devoutly. I am really open to lighting candles on Friday night to remember the forefathers of true religion that brought us Jesus.

 

[KathleenGee]

There is exhortation coming from the American church leadership that we should read our Sunday scripture readings the night before, at the vigil. I thought of lighting candles on Resurrection vigil…

Do you know by the way, that the greatest feastday in the Church is not Christmas or Easter, but Resurrection Sunday…every Sunday is the greatest feast day in the Church…it is in your liturgical documents from Vatican II…

But the problem is bad…no time, living too much…have to make time…my work changes going out to clients…so it is hard for me to get into a routine, whether for morning prayer or evening prayer…

But taking 1 to 2 hours out for the Lord every day has its blessings…I used to pray like that after Mass when my kids were little and my husband had gotten home from graveyard shift…

So…praying for greater length and deeper devotion, lighting candles, working on the practice of living in the presence of God 24/7, wearing some kind of outer garment as a sign of where one is or rather in acknowledgement before Whom one is present,…understanding and incorporating something of the Jewish Passover…I would add, seeing our Jewish roots in the Mass…learning about our church from Scripture from the Hebrew Catholics…acknowledging their needs to express their cultural roots…may be lighting candles on Friday pm to acknowledge the Jewish contribution to our faith?..

 

[Inishfree]

I would like to thank those, who taught me how to spell synagogue. I miss my spell check!

 

[Inishfree]

Meltzerboy…

The Hebrew Catholics want us to learn more of our Jewish roots. They want to have a Hebrew Mass. there are a number of Hebrew Catholic priests now.

They have on www.hebrewcatholic.org…some series on the Church and Israel. I really enjoy learning my Catholic faith from a Jewish Catholic because I am learning it again from those who are from the culture of Sacred Scripture.

I think they want us Gentiles to become more deeply devout, to understand the Passover better, to pray more devoutly. I am really open to lighting candles on Friday night to remember the forefathers of true religion that brought us Jesus.

Hi Kathleen,

My parish has a Seder Supper, each year, on Holy Thursday. I love this!

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Inish,…I would think that participating in the Seder dinner should be a great acknowledgement of the faith of the Jewish people…

 

[Hail_Linus]

I think many people are misunderstanding the culpability of the Jews. I think a good explanation is in the Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers (Matthew 21:33-45):

“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘ The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

As the parable states, the Kingdom was taken from the Jews. The chair of Moses has been replaced with the Chair of Peter, the Keys of the Kingdom have been transferred, the Temple has been replaced the the third Temple (Jesus), they have no Priests, their Rabbi’s no longer trace their lineage through the laying on of hands, etc. This is due to the culpability of the Jews that rejected Jesus. To say the Jews do not bear the guilt for death of Jesus is just the opposite extreme of those that believe it is an excuse for persecuting Jews.

However, we cannot extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places.

 

[theistgal]

Do you know by the way, that the greatest feastday in the Church is not Christmas or Easter, but Resurrection Sunday…

Isn’t Easter the same as “Resurrection Sunday”?

 

[KathleenGee]

No.

Catholicism is based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Every Sunday is the greatest feast because we are celebrating Jesus Christ. If we apply ourselves, we experience the same presence of Christ in the Word and Eucharist as those did on Resurrection Sunday–but minus any apparition.

In ‘The Liturgy Documents’, Ch. 5, ‘The Liturgical Year’,…105, ‘Accordingly the sacred Council has seen fit to decree what follows.’

‘106. By a tradition handed down from the apostles and having its origin from the very day of Christ’s resurrection, the Church celebrates the paschal mystery every eighth day, which with good reason, bears the name of the Lord’s Day or Sunday. For on this day Christ’s faithful must gather together so that, by hearing the word of God, and taking part in the Eucharist, they may call to mind the passion, the resurrection, and the glorification of the Lord Jesus and may thank God, who “has begotten tehm again into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1Pt. 1:3). Hence the Lord’s Day is the first holy day of all and should be proposed to the devotion of the faithful and taught to them in such a way that it may become in fact a day of joy and freedom from work. Other celebrations, unless they be truly of greatest importance, shall not have precedence over the Sunday, the foundation and core of the whole liturgical year.’

 

[KathleenGee]

Likewise, the church is exhorting us to read the Sunday Scripture readings Saturday evening beforehand. In following the Jewish lighting of candles on Friday night, I thought once to light candles on our vigil of the Resurrection while reading the Sunday readings…but it is a time issue for me…some thing to think about…

And then I wondered as well to light candles in solidarity with devout Jews in thanksgiving for giving us the Word of God, the Decalogue, and the Messiah in part to heal wounds and to cultivate a spirit of reconciliation.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

The belief that the Jewish people are collectively responsible for the death of Christ. The early church fathers I listed all specifically place blame on the Jews, yet the Catechism teaches (as does Nostra Aetate) that the Jews cannot be blamed for Jesus’ crucifixion. This confuses me because I see the Catholic Church as being completely patristic in most regards, yet separate in others.

I will address the other teachings in subsequent threads, but for now, I wanted to settle this issue.

The blame rests with the Jews of THAT time and particular area of the world----NOT with subsequent Jews at amy other time in history, all the way down to today.
And like Annie said, Jesus forgave those particualr Jews who condemned him. So it is really moot to reference patristic fathers from that time who still held to the “blood libel” belief that ALL Jews are responsible from here until the end of time.

My take, at least.

Welcome to CAF, by the way.

 

[GregoryPope]

The blame rests with the Jews of THAT time and particular area of the world----NOT with subsequent Jews at amy other time in history, all the way down to today.
And like Annie said, Jesus forgave those particualr Jews who condemned him. So it is really moot to reference patristic fathers from that time who still held to the “blood libel” belief that ALL Jews are responsible from here until the end of time.

My take, at least.

Welcome to CAF, by the way.

Patritics are never moot. The Church fathers understood the words of Jesus on the cross, yet they did not come to the same conclusions that the people of our politically correct age have. Why the discrepancy?

 

[GregoryPope]

I think most people have missed the point of this thread. I didn’t mean to discuss whether or not the Jewish people bear culpability or what such guilt implies. While these are indeed valid questions, this thread was intended to discuss whether or not the Catholic view has changed in regards to this question - why the fathers of the Church hold an opinion that differs from the one presented in the CCC.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Patritics are never moot. The Church fathers understood the words of Jesus on the cross, yet they did not come to the same conclusions that the people of our politically correct age have. Why the discrepancy?

The discrepancy only arises when when one reads the relevant statements through the lenses of our politically correct age. There is nothing wrong theologically with the statements of the Patristic Fathers. However, if anyone made statements like that today it would be considered anti-Semitic since it would be interpreted in the way you are interpreting them. That is why the Catechism has to clarify this issue in a modern way.