The current state of religious debates

[Neithan]

I don’t understand

That’s a great place to start. And I agree, you shouldn’t have to lobotomize yourself to find faith. I think the miraculous (“bizarre”) is God’s way of waking us up from the self-constructed reality we fashion for ourselves; like a clear sign that there is something more beyond our natural capability. As Tolkien wrote, this creates hope that we are not tethered to the inexorable cause-and-effect chain of being. To paraphrase Shakespeare: there are more things in heaven and earth, then we dream up in our philosophies. Perhaps we are uniquely positioned in human history now to get a glimpse of this by our own technological power, but that brings a heightened risk of overestimating our control, and underestimating our bias. Like the materialist who assumes he is hallucinating when given a vision, if we are so certain of our reality that we can’t recognize a miracle when it happens to us, we’re just staring at shadows on the wall of Plato’s cave.

 

[Rabbi]

Your family is permanent? So they won’t die at some point? And, being an atheist, how will they last forever? From a religious context, it’s different. That’s what I was trying to say.

 

[Bradskii]

Your family is permanent? So they won’t die at some point? And, being an atheist, how will they last forever? From a religious context, it’s different. That’s what I was trying to say.

Permanent in this case means still around when I’m not. Unless I’m mistaken, yours are going to die as well. But if you have a belief that y’all catch up again in the great foreverafter and it gives you comfort on a cold night, then I would recommend it to you.

 

[Rabbi]

You don’t have to recommend me anything. I already have faith. Whether we’ll go through gilgulim or straight to Gan Eden, and later, Olam Haba, one thing is sure, something happens. G-d made this life temporary, we all die sometime. But to me, faith isn’t a fairy-tale, it’s very, very real. So can I ask you something?

What gives you comfort on a cold night? With atheism, how do you tackle death and ultimate destruction?

 

[Bradskii]

You don’t have to recommend me anything. I already have faith. Whether we’ll go through gilgulim or straight to Gan Eden, and later, Olam Haba, one thing is sure, something happens. G-d made this life temporary, we all die sometime. But to me, faith isn’t a fairy-tale, it’s very, very real. So can I ask you something?

What gives you comfort on a cold night? With atheism, how do you tackle death and ultimate destruction?

Love of a good woman. A life well spent. Years to come with our children. Grandkids. We make the most of what we have and then return whence we came. Enter stage right. Exit stage left with a flourish!

 

[Rabbi]

And what about that poor guy who hates life and exist stage left in despair? What about him? Was the game of life worth it? Go and tell him there’s no life after death, you’ll break him. Is this what’s right?

Don’t get me wrong, I believe in G-d as much as I think I have two feet.

 

[Bradskii]

And what about that poor guy who hates life and exist stage left in despair? What about him? Was the game of life worth it? Go and tell him there’s no life after death, you’ll break him. Is this what’s right?

It’s like having to tell the grandkids that Grandma is in hospital and she won’t be coming out. You’d tell yours that they will see her again. I tell mine that some people believe that but other people believe that she was a part of the universe that became ‘Gran’. When she dies, she becomes part of the universe again and that will go on for ever.

We were lucky to have her with us, we will always love her and it’s right to be sad when she’s gone.

 

[Rabbi]

It is right to be sad, but those you pray, you have a higher sense of awareness, it helps. It really does. Again, my job isn’t to convince you out of your atheism. Just to recommend you live as best a life as possible, because that’s what G-d judges. What we did, not what we believed.

 

[Pattylt]

And what about that poor guy who hates life and exist stage left in despair? What about him? Was the game of life worth it? Go and tell him there’s no life after death, you’ll break him. Is this what’s right?

Well, he’ll have the peace that comes with oblivion!

Rabbi, as many believers just like you, you seem unable to fathom the atheist view of our mortality, it really isn’t cold and heartless. There is much satisfaction and happiness in realizing that this life is all we get so what we do here and now is so very important. Judaism has this view as well but then goes and ruins it with all the speculation and fantasy of some other reality that has no real evidence but feels good.

For many people, they need this “other” reality. Atheists don’t. We have our families and friends. We have our jobs and hobbies. We have our own purposes and goals. We find these to be very satisfying. That you don’t find it enough is fine for you but I find the fact that my children and grandchildren will live on after me quite enough of a life after death. An eternity ANYWHERE sounds horrible to me!

Please quit with telling atheists how cold their life is. You are wrong. Enjoy your beliefs and leave the atheists to enjoy reality here and now.
Thank you.

 

[Bradskii]

It is right to be sad, but those you pray, you have a higher sense of awareness, it helps. It really does. Again, my job isn’t to convince you out of your atheism. Just to recommend you live as best a life as possible, because that’s what G-d judges. What we did, not what we believed.

I’m certain that if someone is told that they never die then they might find comfort in that if they are frightened of death or hadn’t had a good life.

We each tell the truth as we see it.

 

[Rabbi]

I never said the atheist’s morality is cold, rather, that he or her sees the universe as indifferent towards their existence. That’s what’s cold. Not the person, my gosh, there are so many heartwarming atheists. And you’re right, we both believe in tikkun olam. Can I ask you something? Why are you afraid of eternity? From a certain context, perhaps so, but this isn’t the context.

 

[Anrakyr]

And what about that poor guy who hates life and exist stage left in despair? What about him? Was the game of life worth it? Go and tell him there’s no life after death, you’ll break him. Is this what’s right?

I find peace in that oblivion, I don’t long for it but I feel better about it more then you know.

I tell mine that some people believe that but other people believe that she was a part of the universe that became ‘Gran’. When she dies, she becomes part of the universe again and that will go on for ever.

We were lucky to have her with us, we will always love her and it’s right to be sad when she’s gone.

This.

 

[Rabbi]

That’s fine. If you feel peace in full demise at some point, I won’t stop you.

 

[Pattylt]

never said the atheist’s morality is cold,

Misread or misspell? Mortality, not morality

Why are you afraid of eternity? From a certain context, perhaps so, but this isn’t the context.

I’m not sure what context you are referring to but eternity is too long a time. It is forever and ever. If I would have no temporal awareness of time perhaps it would be tolerable but if I am aware of time passing, I don’t want anything to do with it. And neither you or Christians know how we will perceive the passage of time. Any statements are just guesses. I have no problem with oblivion.

Yes, the universe is cold and indifferent to me, so what? I’m usually pretty indifferent to it as well. I am not indifferent to me and that is ALL the difference.

 

[Anrakyr]

Yes, the universe is cold and indifferent to me, so what? I’m usually pretty indifferent to it as well. I am not indifferent to me and that is ALL the difference.

I’m going to link a video to give context to this just so people replying to Patty can understand the direction its coming from. Where people like her and I see the universe. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Rabbi]

Sorry for the misspell, haha. Who knows how eternity will be, we leave it to HaShem. Take care.

 

[Mary888]

That’s fine. If you feel peace in full demise at some point, I won’t stop you.

May I replace “peace” with comfort in your statement? I think what some atheists are seeking is comfort. Like something that calms us down.
Peace with God is the only peace that lasts and from the Psalms I gather that the only time He will let it be given to us is when we have faith in Him. There is somewhere said that He said “because I am a jealous God”. Love has some jealosy in it, not just as possession. Like…a need.
I am sorry phrases from the Bible hit my memory but the exact place and number does not.

 

[Anrakyr]

Peace with God is the only peace that lasts and from the Psalms I gather that the only time He will let it be given to us is when we have faith in Him. There is somewhere said that He said “because I am a jealous God”. Love has some jealousy in it, not just as possession. Like…a need.

When I was taking theology back when I wanted to become a priest one point many people forget is our actions don’t impact God. He can’t be jealous and as a God, he doesn’t need us.

I understand what you are saying, I can infer from the tone but I think you need to understand you can’t monopolize words like that.

Because I denounce God I can’t have peace? I know in your world its impossible. In the case you’re wrong (which I believe you to be) I CAN have peace.

The catholic church in a world where God isn’t God is required to use language that implies without it you have nothing. That’s how it maintains its hold for as long as it has, leaving the church is an automatic death sentence. Once literately.

I find the implication disingenuous.

 

[laylow]

It’s the reason I lost all respect for Wm. L. Craig. He once responded to a blogger who asked about a scenario of travel back in time and watching the burial of Jesus and saw him rotting in the grave. He said he would still believe and assume he was hallucinating. He emphatically denied that anything would make him disbelieve. Sad as he’s a smart man and an excellent debater but absurdly dogmatic in his beliefs.

That gives a window into how a delusion can become so strong that people would be willing to die for it.

 

[laylow]

An eternity ANYWHERE sounds horrible to me!

I totally agree with this. Many people don’t even think about it deeply. On the occasion that I have challenged people I know to think about it, the best answer they give resembles something to the effect that it will all be different than what we experience here. And I say, "well that’s convenient, but where the h3ll did you pull that idea from? To me it is just white noise and wishful thinking.

I wasn’t the slightest bit inconvenienced before I was born, why should I reason that I will be in a different state when I die?