N
Nita
Guest
No. You already said you doubted its veracity. I take that to mean you don’t accept it as factual.
I’m asking you why you doubt that it is factual.
The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom
- Status
I’m asking you why you doubt that it is factual.
P
patrick457
Guest
To give a short answer for now, for one thing there was a huge speculation among the Jews themselves as to where the Ark have gone. If the Jeremiah story was common knowledge (the letter claims that it was in “the records,” after all) shouldn’t you expect the matter being settled with “Oh, Jeremiah hid it somewhere in Mount Nebo.” Instead however, you get stories about it being stashed somewhere within the hidden bowels of the Temple or it being taken to Babylon or King Josiah hiding it or Menelik smuggling it in secret to Ethiopia. Admittedly these other stories are of late derivation, but IMHO it may show us one thing: the Jeremiah story may have been one of different traditions floating around.
BTW there’s also this note from the OCE:
“[T]he letter from which the above-cited lines are supposed to have been copied cannot be regarded as possessing Divine authority; for, as a rule, a citation remains in the Bible what it was outside of the inspired writing; the impossibility of dating the the original document makes it very difficult to pass a judgment on its historical reliability.”
I think this blog post sums it up more better than I could.
N
Nita
Guest
And none of those stories got included in Holy Scripture.
Lots of stories about the first man and woman - but God oversaw which one got recorded in Scripture.
Lots of stories about the flood - but God oversaw which one got recorded in Scripture.
Etc. etc.
The Ark of the Covenant was extremely holy in the Old Covenant. If the Jeremiah record is false, my thought is God would have ensured it didn’t get included in a book that would become part of Scripture. Better no mention of what happened rather than a factually false one.
If I’m not mistaken, you imply that altho you think it’s factually false, there is a way in which you would consider it true. In what way would you consider it as being true?
P
patrick457
Guest
And you snipped out the quote from the OCE and the link.
P
patrick457
Guest
Okay, so how do I square the idea of the account being probably ahistorical and it conveying ‘truth’? Well, what do you think was the author of the letter trying to convey when he related the story, leaving aside the question of its factuality? Hint: Ark-less Temple.
IMHO what the author’s purpose is by relating that tradition is of more importance than whether the account is factual or not (which for me is a secondary issue - I couldn’t care less if I’m wrong or not).
IMHO what the author’s purpose is by relating that tradition is of more importance than whether the account is factual or not (which for me is a secondary issue - I couldn’t care less if I’m wrong or not).
N
Nita
Guest
And you snipped out the quote from the OCE and the link.
Sometimes you go right over my head!! - which isn’t that hard to do. 
I have no idea what you mean. BTW, what is OCE?oooh, oooh, oooh. I think I might have figured it out. Does it mean Online Catholic Encyclopedia?
N
Nita
Guest
But everybody knew it was an Ark-less temple.
I have to admit, it’s been a long time since I read 2 Maccabees. I did a quick scan and tried to see when that letter which started in 1:10 ended. I couldn’t spot an ending! It’s too late tonight to read the whole thing properly; it’s on my list of things to do tomorrow! - to see if the text of 2 Maccabees from verse 10 to the end consists of this letter. Doesn’t seem likely; wouldn’t make much sense to have a book in the Bible that consisted of a letter whose contents couldn’t be considered as inspired!
P
patrick457
Guest
Either it’s Old Catholic Encyclopedia or Original Catholic Encyclopedia. Either way it is used to differentiate this one with the so-called New Catholic Encyclopedia.
oooh, oooh, oooh. I think I might have figured it out. Does it mean Online Catholic Encyclopedia?
P
patrick457
Guest
Yes, and without an Ark you will have concerns about whether the new Temple is really holy or legit. That was the issue at hand.
P
patrick457
Guest
Allow me to help you: 2 Maccabees 1:10-2:18.
To Aristobulus, who is of the family of the anointed priests, teacher of Ptolemy the king, and to the Jews in Egypt,
Greeting, and good health.
Having been saved by God out of grave dangers we thank him greatly for taking our side against the king. For he drove out those who fought against the holy city. For when the leader reached Persia with a force that seemed irresistible, they were cut to pieces in the temple of Nanea by a deception employed by the priests of Nanea. For under pretext of intending to marry her, Antiochus came to the place together with his friends, to secure most of its treasures as a dowry. When the priests of the temple of Nanea had set out the treasures and Antiochus had come with a few men inside the wall of the sacred precinct, they closed the temple as soon as he entered it. Opening the secret door in the ceiling, they threw stones and struck down the leader and his men, and dismembered them and cut off their heads and threw them to the people outside. Blessed in every way be our God, who has brought judgment upon those who have behaved impiously.
Since on the twenty-fifth day of Chislev we shall celebrate the purification of the temple, we thought it necessary to notify you, in order that you also may celebrate the feast of booths and the feast of the fire given when Nehemiah, who built the temple and the altar, offered sacrifices. For when our fathers were being led captive to Persia, the pious priests of that time took some of the fire of the altar and secretly hid it in the hollow of a dry cistern, where they took such precautions that the place was unknown to any one. But after many years had passed, when it pleased God, Nehemiah, having been commissioned by the king of Persia, sent the descendants of the priests who had hidden the fire to get it. And when they reported to us that they had not found fire but thick liquid, he ordered them to dip it out and bring it. And when the materials for the sacrifices were presented, Nehemiah ordered the priests to sprinkle the liquid on the wood and what was laid upon it. When this was done and some time had passed and the sun, which had been clouded over, shone out, a great fire blazed up, so that all marveled. And while the sacrifice was being consumed, the priests offered prayer – the priests and every one. Jonathan led, and the rest responded, as did Nehemiah. The prayer was to this effect:
“O Lord, Lord God, Creator of all things, who art awe-inspiring and strong and just and merciful, who alone art King and art kind, who alone art bountiful, who alone art just and almighty and eternal, who dost rescue Israel from every evil, who didst choose the fathers and consecrate them, accept this sacrifice on behalf of all thy people Israel and preserve thy portion and make it holy. Gather together our scattered people, set free those who are slaves among the Gentiles, look upon those who are rejected and despised, and let the Gentiles know that thou art our God. Afflict those who oppress and are insolent with pride. Plant thy people in thy holy place, as Moses said.”
Then the priests sang the hymns. And when the materials of the sacrifice were consumed, Nehemiah ordered that the liquid that was left should be poured upon large stones. When this was done, a flame blazed up; but when the light from the altar shone back, it went out. When this matter became known, and it was reported to the king of the Persians that, in the place where the exiled priests had hidden the fire, the liquid had appeared with which Nehemiah and his associates had burned the materials of the sacrifice, the king investigated the matter, and enclosed the place and made it sacred. And with those persons whom the king favored he exchanged many excellent gifts. Nehemiah and his associates called this “nephthar,” which means purification, but by most people it is called naphtha.
One finds in the records that Jeremiah the prophet ordered those who were being deported to take some of the fire, as has been told, and that the prophet after giving them the law instructed those who were being deported not to forget the commandments of the Lord, nor to be led astray in their thoughts upon seeing the gold and silver statues and their adornment. And with other similar words he exhorted them that the law should not depart from their hearts. It was also in the writing that the prophet, having received an oracle, ordered that the tent and the ark should follow with him, and that he went out to the mountain where Moses had gone up and had seen the inheritance of God. And Jeremiah came and found a cave, and he brought there the tent and the ark and the altar of incense, and he sealed up the entrance. Some of those who followed him came up to mark the way, but could not find it. When Jeremiah learned of it, he rebuked them and declared: “The place shall be unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows his mercy. And then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the Lord and the cloud will appear, as they were shown in the case of Moses, and as Solomon asked that the place should be specially consecrated.”
P
patrick457
Guest
(Continued)
It was also made clear that being possessed of wisdom Solomon offered sacrifice for the dedication and completion of the temple. Just as Moses prayed to the Lord, and fire came down from heaven and devoured the sacrifices, so also Solomon prayed, and the fire came down and consumed the whole burnt offerings. And Moses said, “They were consumed because the sin offering had not been eaten.” Likewise Solomon also kept the eight days. The same things are reported in the records and in the memoirs of Nehemiah, and also that he founded a library and collected the books about the kings and prophets, and the writings of David, and letters of kings about votive offerings. In the same way Judas also collected all the books that had been lost on account of the war which had come upon us, and they are in our possession. So if you have need of them, send people to get them for you. Since, therefore, we are about to celebrate the purification, we write to you. Will you therefore please keep the days?
It is God who has saved all his people, and has returned the inheritance to all, and the kingship and priesthood and consecration, as he promised through the law. For we have hope in God that he will soon have mercy upon us and will gather us from everywhere under heaven into his holy place, for he has rescued us from great evils and has purified the place.
(There’s another slight historical blunder in the letter - this one concerning the death of Antiochus Epiphanes - but we’ll let that pass for now.) 2 Maccabees really begins in 2:19-32.
The story of Judas Maccabeus and his brothers, and the purification of the great temple, and the dedication of the altar, and further the wars against Antiochus Epiphanes and his son Eupator, and the appearances which came from heaven to those who strove zealously on behalf of Judaism, so that though few in number they seized the whole land and pursued the barbarian hordes, and recovered the temple famous throughout the world and freed the city and restored the laws that were about to be abolished, while the Lord with great kindness became gracious to them – all this, which has been set forth by Jason of Cyrene in five volumes, we shall attempt to condense into a single book. For considering the flood of numbers involved and the difficulty there is for those who wish to enter upon the narratives of history because of the mass of material, we have aimed to please those who wish to read, to make it easy for those who are inclined to memorize, and to profit all readers. For us who have undertaken the toil of abbreviating, it is no light matter but calls for sweat and loss of sleep, just as it is not easy for one who prepares a banquet and seeks the benefit of others.
However, to secure the gratitude of many we will gladly endure the uncomfortable toil, leaving the responsibility for exact details to the compiler, while devoting our effort to arriving at the outlines of the condensation. For as the master builder of a new house must be concerned with the whole construction, while the one who undertakes its painting and decoration has to consider only what is suitable for its adornment, such in my judgment is the case with us. It is the duty of the original historian to occupy the ground and to discuss matters from every side and to take trouble with details, but the one who recasts the narrative should be allowed to strive for brevity of expression and to forego exhaustive treatment.
At this point therefore let us begin our narrative, adding only so much to what has already been said; for it is foolish to lengthen the preface while cutting short the history itself.
It was also made clear that being possessed of wisdom Solomon offered sacrifice for the dedication and completion of the temple. Just as Moses prayed to the Lord, and fire came down from heaven and devoured the sacrifices, so also Solomon prayed, and the fire came down and consumed the whole burnt offerings. And Moses said, “They were consumed because the sin offering had not been eaten.” Likewise Solomon also kept the eight days. The same things are reported in the records and in the memoirs of Nehemiah, and also that he founded a library and collected the books about the kings and prophets, and the writings of David, and letters of kings about votive offerings. In the same way Judas also collected all the books that had been lost on account of the war which had come upon us, and they are in our possession. So if you have need of them, send people to get them for you. Since, therefore, we are about to celebrate the purification, we write to you. Will you therefore please keep the days?
It is God who has saved all his people, and has returned the inheritance to all, and the kingship and priesthood and consecration, as he promised through the law. For we have hope in God that he will soon have mercy upon us and will gather us from everywhere under heaven into his holy place, for he has rescued us from great evils and has purified the place.
(There’s another slight historical blunder in the letter - this one concerning the death of Antiochus Epiphanes - but we’ll let that pass for now.) 2 Maccabees really begins in 2:19-32.
The story of Judas Maccabeus and his brothers, and the purification of the great temple, and the dedication of the altar, and further the wars against Antiochus Epiphanes and his son Eupator, and the appearances which came from heaven to those who strove zealously on behalf of Judaism, so that though few in number they seized the whole land and pursued the barbarian hordes, and recovered the temple famous throughout the world and freed the city and restored the laws that were about to be abolished, while the Lord with great kindness became gracious to them – all this, which has been set forth by Jason of Cyrene in five volumes, we shall attempt to condense into a single book. For considering the flood of numbers involved and the difficulty there is for those who wish to enter upon the narratives of history because of the mass of material, we have aimed to please those who wish to read, to make it easy for those who are inclined to memorize, and to profit all readers. For us who have undertaken the toil of abbreviating, it is no light matter but calls for sweat and loss of sleep, just as it is not easy for one who prepares a banquet and seeks the benefit of others.
However, to secure the gratitude of many we will gladly endure the uncomfortable toil, leaving the responsibility for exact details to the compiler, while devoting our effort to arriving at the outlines of the condensation. For as the master builder of a new house must be concerned with the whole construction, while the one who undertakes its painting and decoration has to consider only what is suitable for its adornment, such in my judgment is the case with us. It is the duty of the original historian to occupy the ground and to discuss matters from every side and to take trouble with details, but the one who recasts the narrative should be allowed to strive for brevity of expression and to forego exhaustive treatment.
At this point therefore let us begin our narrative, adding only so much to what has already been said; for it is foolish to lengthen the preface while cutting short the history itself.
C
cornbread_r2
Guest
Please do. I’m very interested in this question too.
N
Nita
Guest
N
Nita
Guest
S
steve53
Guest
Hm
It would be tough to tear.
Maybe one of the brackets broke and it collapsed? It was 80 feet tall and had to weight a lot.
It would be tough to tear.
Maybe one of the brackets broke and it collapsed? It was 80 feet tall and had to weight a lot.
S
steve53
Guest
Just saw a show on gothic architecture and the use of flying buttresses for the support of the walls of cathedrals.
In a couple of previous posts there was speculation on what the temple building itself looked like, as Josephus does not report on any facade columns to support the hundred foot tall front.
But he does talk about side additions to the temple that looked like shoulders.
Could the architects have used a flying buttress type structure to support the height of the building?
Patrick?
In a couple of previous posts there was speculation on what the temple building itself looked like, as Josephus does not report on any facade columns to support the hundred foot tall front.
But he does talk about side additions to the temple that looked like shoulders.
Could the architects have used a flying buttress type structure to support the height of the building?
Patrick?
P
patrick457
Guest
I don’t know. Flying buttresses as we know them are really medieval inventions (which is what makes a defining characteristic of Gothic architecture). I’ve read that proto-flying buttresses were already in use during the Byzantine period at the earliest, but as for Roman-period architecture I think not too likely.
Can we have the quote, please?
S
steve53
Guest
Here is the only source for Herod’s Temple, from Josephus. I suppose you can cook up whatever drawing you want from this, and don’t forget the cleaning holes and ladders!
"As to the holy house itself, which was placed in the midst [of the inmost court], that most sacred part of the temple, it was ascended to by twelve steps; and in front its height and its breadth were equal, and each a hundred cubits, though it was behind forty cubits narrower; for on its front it had what may be styled shoulders on each side, that passed twenty cubits further. Its first gate was seventy cubits high, and twenty-five cubits broad; but this gate had no doors; for it represented the universal visibility of heaven, and that it cannot be excluded from any place. Its front was covered with gold all over, and through it the first part of the house, that was more inward, did all of it appear; which, as it was very large, so did all the parts about the more inward gate appear to shine to those that saw them; but then, as the entire house was divided into two parts within, it was only the first part of it that was open to our view. Its height extended all along to ninety cubits in height, and its length was fifty cubits, and its breadth twenty. But that gate which was at this end of the first part of the house was, as we have already observed, all over covered with gold, as was its whole wall about it; it had also golden vines above it, from which clusters of grapes hung as tall as a man’s height. But then this house, as it was divided into two parts, the inner part was lower than the appearance of the outer, and had golden doors of fifty-five cubits altitude, and sixteen in breadth; but before these doors there was a veil of equal largeness with the doors. It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful. Nor was this mixture of colors without its mystical interpretation, but was a kind of image of the universe; for by the scarlet there seemed to be enigmatically signified fire, by the fine flax the earth, by the blue the air, and by the purple the sea; two of them having their colors the foundation of this resemblance; but the fine flax and the purple have their own origin for that foundation, the earth producing the one, and the sea the other. This curtain had also embroidered upon it all that was mystical in the heavens, excepting that of the [twelve] signs, representing living creatures. "
"As to the holy house itself, which was placed in the midst [of the inmost court], that most sacred part of the temple, it was ascended to by twelve steps; and in front its height and its breadth were equal, and each a hundred cubits, though it was behind forty cubits narrower; for on its front it had what may be styled shoulders on each side, that passed twenty cubits further. Its first gate was seventy cubits high, and twenty-five cubits broad; but this gate had no doors; for it represented the universal visibility of heaven, and that it cannot be excluded from any place. Its front was covered with gold all over, and through it the first part of the house, that was more inward, did all of it appear; which, as it was very large, so did all the parts about the more inward gate appear to shine to those that saw them; but then, as the entire house was divided into two parts within, it was only the first part of it that was open to our view. Its height extended all along to ninety cubits in height, and its length was fifty cubits, and its breadth twenty. But that gate which was at this end of the first part of the house was, as we have already observed, all over covered with gold, as was its whole wall about it; it had also golden vines above it, from which clusters of grapes hung as tall as a man’s height. But then this house, as it was divided into two parts, the inner part was lower than the appearance of the outer, and had golden doors of fifty-five cubits altitude, and sixteen in breadth; but before these doors there was a veil of equal largeness with the doors. It was a Babylonian curtain, embroidered with blue, and fine linen, and scarlet, and purple, and of a contexture that was truly wonderful. Nor was this mixture of colors without its mystical interpretation, but was a kind of image of the universe; for by the scarlet there seemed to be enigmatically signified fire, by the fine flax the earth, by the blue the air, and by the purple the sea; two of them having their colors the foundation of this resemblance; but the fine flax and the purple have their own origin for that foundation, the earth producing the one, and the sea the other. This curtain had also embroidered upon it all that was mystical in the heavens, excepting that of the [twelve] signs, representing living creatures. "
- Status