The Dance of the Eucharist

[prv]

I switched off after the priest picked up the monstrance and waved it around like a stick while dancing, to the cheers of the crowd.

It looks ridiculous. I just watched the first 2 seconds of it. Will somebody please reprint Cardinal Arinze’s mailing address again???

 

[prv]

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.

I watched this RIGHT after I watched that Halloween Mass video. Not a good day for me.

I just came back from the Halloween Mass thread.

Kyrie Eleison. Christe Eleison. Kyrie Eleison.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Let us remember that Brazil is indeed a country that has a very rich and long history of using dance for all sorts of occasions. Including, I dare say, religious ones as well.

And even Cardinal Arinze, bless him, has only ever, to my understanding, gone so far as to say that dance is not part of liturgy in the WEST and the US. A case could possibly be made that in Brazil, as in Africa, dance is indeed acceptable within certain limits.

What I wonder is that Catholicism came to Brazil by way of Portugal. Like the rest of the Roman Rite world (or local Portuguese Latin Rite whose name escapes me) the Portuguese don’t dance at Mass. Brought to Brazil, it would seem that the no dancing rule would have carried over and solidified over the past 500 some years of Portuguese rule.

Yes they dance, but there are traditional dances throughout the world and that isn’t justification for liturgical dance. I think it should be specified that the Roman Rite doesn’t include any dancing, especially in cultures that have been Catholic for many centuries.

 

[SMHW]

What I wonder is that Catholicism came to Brazil by way of Portugal. Like the rest of the Roman Rite world (or local Portuguese Latin Rite whose name escapes me) the Portuguese don’t dance at Mass. Brought to Brazil, it would seem that the no dancing rule would have carried over and solidified over the past 500 some years of Portuguese rule.

Someone once told me that Southern and Central American Catholicism tends to be a pre-Tridentine Catholicism: that the reforms of Trent, which came after missionaries had begun spreading Christianity in the Americas, did not have the same effect on local spirituality (dance?) as it did in Europe (and the northern European colonies.) I can’t verify such claims. But if true, perhaps it partially explains the differences between Brazilian and Portuguese Catholicism.

 

[chotock]

In addition, Brazil has a large African influence.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Did anyone notice that this did not look or sound like an African dance? Did you notice the guys with their arms crossed and doing the Russian cossack dance? It looked to me like a cross between an Israeli folk dance and Eastern European dance. And the music didn’t sound the least bit African or Brazilian. This was not the music of Brazilian Mardi Gras.

 

[marci]

I thought that the One, Holy, Catholic Church is supposed to be for all people, for all times, universal and unchanged. I know that local customs and practices are integrated into the liturgy, but respect and reverence for the Holy Eurcharist should be universal.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Someone once told me that Southern and Central American Catholicism tends to be a pre-Tridentine Catholicism: that the reforms of Trent, which came after missionaries had begun spreading Christianity in the Americas, did not have the same effect on local spirituality (dance?) as it did in Europe (and the northern European colonies.) I can’t verify such claims. But if true, perhaps it partially explains the differences between Brazilian and Portuguese Catholicism.

Well, if that was true, I’d say that this “pre-Tridentine” Catholicism would be even less open to dancing and the like. Besides, for the most part, the Council of Trent dealt with reforming the discipline of clerics, reaffirming the Sacraments, etc. The “pre-Tridentine” Mass was practically the same as the “post-Tridentine” Mass (contrary to what the avant garde of the '60s ‘reform’ would want to say) so, it shouldn’t have a terribly big influence on things. Plus, most of the clergy (and certainly the bishops) that were in the New World were sent from Spain and Portugal (and France, and Italy etc.) and would have brought the reaffirmation Tridentine theology with them.

 

[kleary]

I just threw up in my mouth. I watched the video and my 2 year old son came into the room then had to shut it off in order to prevent him from being harmed by the video- seeing the priest do such things with the Blessed Sacrament.

May God have mercy on them, not so much those who were put into the positions of dancing but for that priest and the Bishop of his Diocese for allowing such travesty to take place.

As I commented on the video page at that site someone should forward this to the Pope immediately and beg him to take control of the Roman Rite as his predecessors before Pope Paul VI had with a Missal and Ritual that made no allowance for any abuses of this sort of nature whatsoever!

Ken

 

[SMHW]

The “pre-Tridentine” Mass was practically the same as the “post-Tridentine” Mass (contrary to what the avant garde of the '60s ‘reform’ would want to say) so, it shouldn’t have a terribly big influence on things. Plus, most of the clergy (and certainly the bishops) that were in the New World were sent from Spain and Portugal (and France, and Italy etc.) and would have brought the reaffirmation Tridentine theology with them

My thought was that this video was not a reflection on the Mass at all but rather on popular ‘private’ devotion. This video, after all, was not a Mass. If this was a private devotion rather than a liturgical rite then no prohibition against dancing would apply.

I believe the person who spoke of pre-Tridentine Catholicism was suggesting that popular devotion is somewhat more emphasized and the Mass somewhat less emphasized in early South American Catholicism.

 

[Caesar]

My thought was that this video was not a reflection on the Mass at all but rather on popular ‘private’ devotion. This video, after all, was not a Mass. If this was a private devotion rather than a liturgical rite then no prohibition against dancing would apply.

So, it’s fine for the Solemn Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament to have the monstrance waved around like a stick and irreverant dancing?

 

[SMHW]

So, it’s fine for the Solemn Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament to have the monstrance waved around like a stick and irreverant dancing?

Solemn Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament is a liturgy. What happened in the video did not appear to be a liturgy.

I question whether or not the Blessed Sacrament was even in the monstrance.

For what it was worth, it was not my idea of reverant worship. I don’t like liturgical dancing. But my dislike doesn’t mean that someone else’s private dance is necessarily irreverant. I have no idea whether the point of the dancing was to honor or to mock the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[gelsbern]

Let me start by saying that I in no way agree with picking up the monstrance and dancing with it - not in the slightest.

Having said that - bear in mind that this video appears to be from BRAZIL and NOT any western country. And it appears to be in the context of some religious congress rather than a Mass or exposition within a church.

Let us remember that Brazil is indeed a country that has a very rich and long history of using dance for all sorts of occasions. Including, I dare say, religious ones as well.

And even Cardinal Arinze, bless him, has only ever, to my understanding, gone so far as to say that dance is not part of liturgy in the WEST and the US. A case could possibly be made that in Brazil, as in Africa, dance is indeed acceptable within certain limits.

Don’t jump on me for having said the above. I’m not stating it as certain and I for one would need to know a bit more, and certainly think this particular dance exceeded what might be permissible.

I think, though, that the God who was fine with David dancing in front of him half-naked isn’t averse to all liturgical dance.

Brazil IS indeed a western country, and that means that Brazil is included in Cardinal Arinze’s words when he said dance is not part of the liturgy in the WEST.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

 

[MarthaMartha]

Did anyone notice that this did not look or sound like an African dance? Did you notice the guys with their arms crossed and doing the Russian cossack dance? It looked to me like a cross between an Israeli folk dance and Eastern European dance.

And we kept seeing the word “shalom” at the end, too.

 

[cheese_sdc]

I really don’t see what the fuss is about. This was a wonderful expression of the people’s joy in front of the eucharist. The dancer’s weren’t lewd, and the women dancers were appropriately dressed.

I would not have chosen to celebrate in such a manner, but that’s just me.

 

[Walking_Home]

I really don’t see what the fuss is about. This was a wonderful expression of the people’s joy in front of the eucharist. The dancer’s weren’t lewd, and the women dancers were appropriately dressed.

I would not have chosen to celebrate in such a manner, but that’s just me.

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Whatever joy they are expressing —can be expressed without dancing around with our Lord in hand.

 

[cheese_sdc]

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Whatever joy they are expressing —can be expressed without dancing around with our Lord in hand.

In your opinion.

I don’t see how God could possibly be offended by this. This was an authentic expression of the people’s joy.

Imagine that you are a king who visits a far off portion of your kingdom. You arrive, and the people are so happy that you have come that they dance before you and carry your through the city, all the while dancing and celebrating.

 

[Walking_Home]

In your opinion.

I don’t see how God could possibly be offended by this. This was an authentic expression of the people’s joy.

Imagine that you are a king who visits a far off portion of your kingdom. You arrive, and the people are so happy that you have come that they dance before you and carry your through the city, all the while dancing and celebrating.

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God is not an object to be carried and danced about in such a manner. What you said above is puts God in a purely human dimension—He surpasses any king known to this world.

 

[SMHW]

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God is not an object to be carried and danced about in such a manner. What you said above is puts God in a purely human dimension.

I am curious about your reasoning. I agree God is not a mere ‘object’. But then a king carried around is not a mere object either.

Is it that you think there is no possiblity of sacred dance in Western culture, even if it is outside of a liturgy?

 

[cheese_sdc]

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God is not an object to be carried and danced about in such a manner. What you said above is puts God in a purely human dimension—He surpasses any king known to this world.

Not really. Jesus is both human and divine. Not only that, but since we are human, the only way we can relate to Him is through human means. I don’t think that we can sacrifice our humanity for the sake of the spiritual - those dimensions of our being need to be balanced.

In my opinion, this video shows an excellent balance of the two, the physical and the spiritual.

Also, when you think about it, Jesus chose very a physical, tangible, and human item to continue His presence on earth. Bread. So I would hesitate to say that we shouldn’t use physical things in our worship of God.