The "Dark Ages"?

[MaxRosen]

MYTH:

The Roman Empire falls. Europe, in the grip of anti-scientific Christianity, lapses into the dark ages. Scientific and technological progress in Europe ceases. Compared to its Muslim neighbours or the Chinese Europe is a dark, barbaric continent.

Then Europeans recover the lost Greek learning from the Muslims. The Renaissance! The Enlightenment! Modern science! Progress!

REALITY.

The so-called ‘dark ages’ were a time of immense scientific and technological progress in Europe. During this period we have the first appearance of blast furnaces. Better ploughs are developed. Europeans learn, literally, how to harness horsepower. Better spinning and weaving machines are introduced revolutionising the production of textiles. The first harbour cranes make their appearance. Iron horseshoes revolutionise transport.

Also during the so-called ‘dark ages’ Europeans build the INFRASTRUCTURE of the knowledge economy. A dense network of well-funded universities is established. Academics are well-paid and enjoy immense privileges. Modern theoretical physics gets its start at the University of Paris. By the time the ancient Greek texts are recovered Europeans have far outstripped Greek science.

The cases of Bruno and Galileo notwithstanding, on the whole the Catholic Church supports science and technology. It is precisely during the so-called ‘dark ages’ that Europe surged ahead in science.

The reality, well known to historians of science, is documented in Rodeny Stark’s book, “For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery”

With a few exceptions the history in Stark’s book is not controversial among professionals. If Stark had stopped there I would have regarded his book as interesting but unexceptional.

Stark, however, goes further. He asserts that it is because Christianity teaches the existence of a ‘law abiding’ God that science could ONLY flourish in Europe. It could not flower in Dar-ul-Islam because Allah is depicted as a capricious deity while it sputtered out in China precisely because their elite did not believe in any God.

Now that is a controversial point of view if ever there was one. Yet the fact remains that Europe alone surged ahead in science and technology.

A few more points.

Bede (673-735) detects the precession of the equinoxes and links the tides to the phases of the moon.

John Philoponus (490-570) develops the theory of impressed force to explain why objects such as arrows keep moving after they have been given a shove. This overturns Aristotle’s physics and leads eventually to Newton’s laws of motion.

Both of these are, for the time, PARADIGM BREAKING insights rather than mere extensions of previous knowledge.

Popular myth has it that Copernicus was an isolated Catholic prelate who came up with the idea of a heliocentric system out of the blue. This is false. Copernicus attended some of the best universities in Europe. He would have heard of the work of Jean Buridan and Oresme who speculated that, rather than the heavens orbiting the Earth, it was the Earth that spun on its axis. (See PLANETS, STARS & ORBS: The Medieval Cosmos 1200-1687 pp 642 – 643)

Copernicus took the next step. Like most scientists he built on the work of his predecessors.

It was not initially the Catholic Church but the Protestants who objected. Here is what Martin Luther had to say:

“There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, …However, as Holy Scripture* tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.”

*Luther was referring to Joshua 10:10-15

Amazingly the Catholic Church permitted dissection of human bodies – something neither Islam nor Judaism would have countenanced. This led to an explosion in medical knowledge. The myth that the great anatomist, Vesalius, was taking his life into his hands by performing dissections is false.

Finally, by the time Columbus set sale in 1492 no educated person, and certainly no senior prelate, believed the Earth was flat. The argument was about the size of the Earth, not its rotundity. Columbus’ critics believed he could not carry sufficient supplies to reach India or Japan and that he and his crew would perish.

Columbus’ critics were right. But Columbus lucked out and discovered America.

The problem with dismissing Stark’s thesis out of hand is this. Few can argue that by the 12th Century Europe was the global leader in science and technology. Such leadership does not, however, spring out of the blue. It is only possible if there is an established culture of scientific enquiry and the INFRASTRUCTURE to sustain it. That culture must have been nurtured during the so-called ‘dark ages’. And the infrastructure must have been built over the same period.

As Stark point out, the infrastructure of Europe’s knowledge economy could not have been built without generous funding from the Catholic Church.

Any thoughts?

Given the power of the Catholic Church in Europe back then I find it difficult to see how Europe could have advanced so rapidly in science and technology without the blessings - and finances - of the Catholic Church.

 

[John21652]

MYTH:

The Roman Empire falls. Europe, in the grip of anti-scientific Christianity, lapses into the dark ages. Scientific and technological progress in Europe ceases. Compared to its Muslim neighbours or the Chinese Europe is a dark, barbaric continent.

Given the power of the Catholic Church in Europe back then I find it difficult to see how Europe could have advanced so rapidly in science and technology without the blessings - and finances - of the Catholic Church.

For a while after the fall of Rome, Europe was indeed a dark place, but not totally. When we speak of ‘Rome’ we are speaking of an Empire. Empires provide political and social stability and that stability is necessary if knowledge and learning is to flourish. After the Roman Empire disintegrated, the Byzantine Empire still held sway and it’s most famous proponent was the Emporor Justinian. Under his rule, science and learning and the examination of knowledge constinued to flourish. One whose thought flourished at that time was John Philoponus. He indeed had some great insights into science and philosophy that almost anticipated what modern science can now explain. His rationality opened up scientific thought to a paradigm which saw logic embedded in the natural world and placed there by a Creator who set in motion a universe with its own internal laws. However, even he was branded a heretic and his theories were effectively buried for a few hundred years. So, I wouldn’t be too quick to state that science flourished because of Christianity. Come forward a few hundred years and the rise of Europe’s nation states again gave the academics a stable sociio-political environment in which they could relax with their work.

Islam did indeed develop science and mathematics, and the point to their development is that science and learning developed under the protection of a Caliphate. The Caliphate created an empire, which in turn created that stable socio-political context within which academics flourished. Much of what developed under Islam found its way into Europe through Islam’s conquest of a lot of Europe, Spain in particular. The Mongols sacked Baghdad in 1258. The Christian nation states drove Islam out of Europe around the same time and the strength of those early nation states gave stability to the academics and thinkers of society. Before the more modern nation states rose from the ashes of a tribal Europe, there were the Merovingians and the Carolingians who fostered art and science. Charlemagne is the most famous ruler who fostered the arts and sciences.

Islam as an empire faded and many of its most famous academic treasures were lost to invaders. As European nation states strengthened, they dissasociated themselves from religion and science flourished as a consequence of not being bound by theistic constraints. certainly the common Christian heritage helped form the nation states, it bound them together and tempered their independence, but science prospered more in defiance of religion than because of it. As strong Roman Emporers created a stable empire, so too did Christianity help create a stable socio-political society where the sciences could flourish.

 

[MaxRosen]

Hi John21652

You write:

Islam did indeed develop science and mathematics, and the point to their development is that science and learning developed under the protection of a Caliphate.

I appreciate that this is what is commonly taught. Once upon a time I believed it myself.

As I learned more about the history of science I realised that it was not so simple. It ignores the fact that Muslims conquered regions with a pre-existing tradition of scientific enquiry. What appears to be the so-called “golden age” of Islamic science looks more like the dying embers of a pre-Islamic scientific culture that Islam ultimately snuffed out.

I would never claim that the Catholic Church and science in Europe always co-existed peacefully. After all as recently as 1600 Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake.

But an objective look at the record does not support the view that the two were in a constant state of war either. It is simply not believable that such a dense network of universities could have been established in Europe before the Middle-Ages without the support of the Church. And without that network it is hard to explain how Europe was suddenly able to overtake the rest of the world in science and technology.

I do not necessarily buy into Stark’s thesis that Europe took off because of the Church. But neither is it credible that it did so in spite of the Church.

 

[edwest2]

I suggest you get a copy of How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization." See here:

catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0101.html

The common, and often angry, secular myth in circulation is that the Enlightenment freed men from the shackles of the Church to finally do “real” science. This is not true.

The Pontifical Academy of Sciences was founded in 1603.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/own/documents/rc_pa_acdscien_doc_10121999_history_en.html

Peace,
Ed

 

[abucs]

Hi John21652

You write:

I appreciate that this is what is commonly taught. Once upon a time I believed it myself.

As I learned more about the history of science I realised that it was not so simple. It ignores the fact that Muslims conquered regions with a pre-existing tradition of scientific enquiry. What appears to be the so-called “golden age” of Islamic science looks more like the dying embers of a pre-Islamic scientific culture that Islam ultimately snuffed out.

Hi Maxrosen, do you have any easily cited reading material that changed your mind?

 

[John21652]

Hi Maxrosen, do you have any easily cited reading material that changed your mind?

Max, please excuse me for seemingly bypassing your post to answer abucs.

I don’t know what books Max has read to indicate that there should be suspicions about the so called ‘Golden Age of Islam’, but he is correct; there needs to be judicious study done before believing everything that Islamic apologists would have us believe.

I can give you a few examples that show a degree of trickery and chicanery and they can be found just by using the Internet and Google.

Let’s start from this web page, The Islamic Golden Age, on Wikipedia. There you can read about all the wondrous things that Islamic scholars and scientists gave us. It surely looks as though the great flourishing that was Islam gave the world just about everything we take for granted today and the poor old West must have been truly wallowing in a Dark Age whilst all this was happening. Now go the web site of The Independentand read this web page which has the title How Islamic Inventors Changed The World and you again see the wondrous ‘gifts’ of Islam.

Now let’s take a few examples.

The first one being the game of Chess, again on Wikipedia. From the Independent’s article you can read how Chess was given to the Western world. It says a form of the game was played in India, but the game was developed in Persia and introduced into Europe through Spain by the Moors. Now go to this web page on Chess, Wikipedia again, and read how Chess in its present form emerged in Europe during the second half of the 15th century, an evolution of an older Indian game, called Shatranj and it came via Sassanid Persia. Sassanid Persia was pre-Islamic, was a powerful Empire and on a par with the Roman and Byzantine Empires! Arab Muslims only conquered Persia in 644.

The next example is what we call a Bank Cheque (Check). According to the Islamic apologists here, the word “cheque” comes from the Arabic word “saqq”, a written vow to pay for goods when they were delivered. A little delving and you find the system of a promissory note was first developed by the ancient Romans, but the word “cheque” again comes from the Persian game that eventually became chess and refers to a person, or thing, of authority and stems from the Persian word used for Check, or Check Mate of the King in Chess. Again, the system and the word pre-date Islam.

Innoculation, which the Islamic apologists tell us comes from Islam. Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, the wife of the British ambassador to Turkey, learned about variolation, the introduction of viruses into the skin, in Turkey. The Islamic apologists tell us it was in Instanbul in 1724, while Stanford University says it was in 1721 that lady Montagu learned how cowpox virus was let into the skin as a vaccine against smallpox. Stanford University tells us the practice was first carried out in China for centuries. At the time of lady Montagu’s ‘discovery’ Turkey was ruled by the Ottomans and not an Islamic state.

The Islamic apologists tell us that the windmill was invented in 634 for a Persian caliph. However, historians tell us that windmills were used in Ancient Egypt and Persia for irrigation around 700BC, long before Islam arrived on the scene.

The Muslim apologists wonder if quillting was perhaps invented in the Muslim world, but historical evidence tells us it originated in ancient Egypt perhaps as far back as 3200 B.C and the oldest surviving piece was found in a Mongolian cave. The Mongels were not Muslims.

Numbering, with the style of numerlas used today is claimed to be “probably Islamic”. In actual fact, the style of todays numerals is Hindu. Our numbering system is called Hindu-Arabic system, because the Hindus invented the numerals system with the zero, as we use it today and the Arabs played a large part in disseminating the system throughout the world.

Islam claims credit for Algebra, because the term Algebra supposedly comes from the title of a book called Al-Jabr wa-al-Muqabilah. However a read over the history of the discipline makes one realise that it had a very long history of development, beginning with the ancient Egyptians and Greeks and that many years later “Although the language was Arabic many of the scholars were Greeks, Christians, Persians, or Jews.”

Anyway, without going through every single claim regarding what Islam supposedly gave to the world, caution should be exercised when one hears of the so called Golden Age of Islam.

 

[MaxRosen]

Hi Abucs

Apologies for the delay in replying to your question. Sometimes my day job interferes with my online pontificating.

Fortunately John21652 has provided an excellent answer. For which thank you.

A bit of personal history.

I was born a Jew and still consider myself to be Jewish. However neither my parents nor I have ever practiced Judaism. We are a secular family.

Nevertheless my parents sent me to a Jewish school. “Jewish History” was a compulsory subject. About a third of the syllabus was devoted to the history of Christian persecution of Jews. This was pretty full on. For example we had to study Chrysostom’s Eight Homilies against the Jews.

As you may imagine the people who drew up the Jewish History curriculum had no love for the Catholic Church. Yet nowhere did they claim the Church was anti-science. Trust me, if they felt they could have pinned that one on the Church they would have.*

So you see I grew up having no love for the Church. I was prepared to believe the worst. However the history of science was my real passion. As I learned more I came to realize that, while the relationship between the Church and science was often a stormy one, the Church as an institution was never anti-science. On the contrary, the Church generally, but not always, encouraged technology and scientific enquiry.

Some European innovations during the so-called dark ages include the invention of horse shoes, bridles for horses and wheels with steel rims. These were not trivial developments. By reducing the cost of transporting goods they enabled commerce to blossom as never before.

Contrast the Church with the opinions attributed to the revered Muslim Sufi poet, Al-Ghazali:

Consider Imaam Ghazaali’s position on astronomy and related science. In his view, it is not permissible for all and sundry to learn astronomy. He labels astronomy as futile and trivial. He regards only limited astronomy for a select few to be permissible – such astronomy which is necessary for navigation and finding direction in the land and sea. He argues that astronomy is guesswork and blameworthy. He propagates the truth of the Hadith that it is better to remain ignorant of some branches of learning. This is a position which is unpalatable to the modernist palate soured by mental corruption. He therefore advocates: “Do not indulge in such sciences which the Shariah brands as useless.”

*Don’t feel we were only picking on the Catholic Church. We also studied Martin Luther on “The Jews and their Lies”

 

[John21652]

Hi Abucs

Apologies for the delay in replying to your question. Sometimes my day job interferes with my online pontificating.

Fortunately John21652 has provided an excellent answer. For which thank you.

A bit of personal history.

I was born a Jew and still consider myself to be Jewish. However neither my parents nor I have ever practiced Judaism. We are a secular family.

Nevertheless my parents sent me to a Jewish school. “Jewish History” was a compulsory subject. About a third of the syllabus was devoted to the history of Christian persecution of Jews. This was pretty full on. For example we had to study Chrysostom’s Eight Homilies against the Jews.

As you may imagine the people who drew up the Jewish History curriculum had no love for the Catholic Church. Yet nowhere did they claim the Church was anti-science. Trust me, if they felt they could have pinned that one on the Church they would have.*

So you see I grew up having no love for the Church. I was prepared to believe the worst. However the history of science was my real passion. As I learned more I came to realize that, while the relationship between the Church and science was often a stormy one, the Church as an institution was never anti-science. On the contrary, the Church generally, but not always, encouraged technology and scientific enquiry.

Some European innovations during the so-called dark ages include the invention of horse shoes, bridles for horses and wheels with steel rims. These were not trivial developments. By reducing the cost of transporting goods they enabled commerce to blossom as never before.

Contrast the Church with the opinions attributed to the revered Muslim Sufi poet, Al-Ghazali:

*Don’t feel we were only picking on the Catholic Church. We also studied Martin Luther on “The Jews and their Lies”

Fascinating story about yourself, Max. I am of Irish descent and Catholicism has been part of our family history ever since whenever. My mother had a particular fascination and interest for Jewish history, which she passed on to all her children. Chaim Potok was our introduction. I for one cannot understand the persecution of the Jewish people by Christians down through the ages. It has been nothing short of moral cowardice writ large. I am ashamed of much of what I have read. As far as I am concerned, my Catholicism is a shared Judeo-Christian heritage, just as is the society in which I live. A while back I read a book about the expulsion of the Jews from certain mediaevil cities and it traced the stories of different families in their sometimes very long journey back to Israel. I can’t for the love of me remember the title of the book, but I will never forget the stories. I am glad you are here to share stuff with us.

 

[abucs]

Thanks for your extended answer John. It looks like a large topic and you’ve provided a really good place to start investigating.

Thanks as well Max for sharing your experiences and the links. I hope you find a warm welcome at this site.

 

[MaxRosen]

John21652, abucs

Thank you for your kind words.

Since my school days I’ve moved on. What I learned in Jewish history is true. It is what it is and what it is is pretty horrible. But it’s not the full story. The Church has acknowledged past errors and today the Catholic Church is not persecuting anybody.

 

[John21652]

John21652, abucs

Thank you for your kind words.

Since my school days I’ve moved on. What I learned in Jewish history is true. It is what it is and what it is is pretty horrible. But it’s not the full story. The Church has acknowledged past errors and today the Catholic Church is not persecuting anybody.

I’m not sure the 'Catholic Church" as an organization persecuted the Jews. In 1273, Pope Gregory X issued an encyclical to “…all Christians forbidding them to baptize Jews by force or to injure their persons, or to take away their money, or to disturb them during the celebration of their religious festivals.” No doubt there was a culturals bias against the Jews and I’m not sure anyone below the level of the Pope complied with the encyclical. Cultural biases are a terribly strong force and the Jewish paople were forced to endure some pretty horrible things.They still are in some places.

Anyway, that maybe is a topic for a dedicated thread. For us, the question is “The Dark Ages”. Were they as “dark” scientifically and culturally as we have been led to believe. I still hold to the thesis that a settled socio-political economy is necessary for science and philosophy to flourish. After all, if you have to spend an inordinate amount of time looking over your shoulder for potential enemies, or an inordinate amount of time trying to simply feed, clothe and shelter yourself and your family, you are not exactly going to be blessed with the time and the peace of mind to contemplate the inner workings of the universe, are you?!

If we examine the wondrous scientific developments of the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptions, the Byzantines, the Perians and then the European nation states, there were long periods of stability during which the minds of men could be turned towards the development of ideas. In Europe, after the fall of Rome and then the Byzantines, the proto-nation states developed in the context of turmoil, both political and economic. Despite this turmoil, or maybe to spite this turmoil, there was one unifying force - Christianity. Without this unifying force, Europe indeed would have been ‘Dark’ and the ideas of men would have been stifled.

 

[MaxRosen]

John21652

Technically you are correct. As an institution the Catholic Church did not persecute Jews. We actually learned that in Jewish History.

In fact Christians were more likely to fall foul of the Inquisition than Jews.

However there is no question that many individual preachers spread a diapason of hatred about Jews around Europe. I’ve mentioned Chrysostom. There were many more.

 

[tonyrey]

John21652

Technically you are correct. As an institution the Catholic Church did not persecute Jews. We actually learned that in Jewish History.

In fact Christians were more likely to fall foul of the Inquisition than Jews.

However there is no question that many individual preachers spread a diapason of hatred about Jews around Europe. I’ve mentioned Chrysostom. There were many more.

It is to be expected that the Jews would be persecuted down the centuries - culminating with the most horrific Holocaust in history. They are the Chosen People… from whom the suffering Messiah has come…

Christians too have been persecuted but that does not mean there are no persecutors in the ranks of the persecuted!

 

[abucs]

Hi John,

thought you might be interested in the the following link.

archive.org/details/popessciencehist00walsrich

 

[chosen_people]

Of course the Catholic Church and not just people of the Catholic faith persecuted Jews. One needs only to take a cursory glance at Papal Bulls and Church edicts or to open a history book. The concepts of racial purity concerning Christians having Jewish ancestry, forcing Jews to live in ghettos, making Jews wear yellow clothing marking them as Jews, the burning of Jewish books, the forcing of Jews to attend lectures on Catholicism or to face punishment, the basic denial of the right to be employed or to employ or the right to attend places of learning or the right to freely engage in an occupation or the right of equality under law and in giving testimony, forced conversions of Jews and forced removal from their families of the forced converted, stealing of Jewish property through expulsions, confiscations and special taxes on Jews, mass murder of Jews in riots led by Church officials or by Catholics incited by Church accusations of the blood libel or for “desecrating the eucharist” (well this should be a start about the “non persecution of Jews” by the Catholic Church - that of course is not the Catholic Church of today - the Jesuit Order canceled their requirement that an applicant be able to prove back 5 generations that he is free of Jewish blood in 1946, the ability of the Catholic Church to apply these edicts on Jews ended with the Papal state and Pope Pius IX, Western states have granted Jews full equality under law and with the regaining of Jewish independence in the third Commonwealth no Jew need tolerate such persecution, Catholic attitudes underwent a fundamental change with Vatican II under the Righteous Gentile Pope John the XXIII and the Vatican has established diplomatic ties with Israel and in general has shown more understanding and sensitivity toward Jews ).

 

[tonyrey]

Of course the Catholic Church and not just people of the Catholic faith persecuted Jews. One needs only to take a cursory glance at Papal Bulls and Church edicts or to open a history book. The concepts of racial purity concerning Christians having Jewish ancestry, forcing Jews to live in ghettos, making Jews wear yellow clothing marking them as Jews, the burning of Jewish books, the forcing of Jews to attend lectures on Catholicism or to face punishment, the basic denial of the right to be employed or to employ or the right to attend places of learning or the right to freely engage in an occupation or the right of equality under law and in giving testimony, forced conversions of Jews and forced removal from their families of the forced converted, stealing of Jewish property through expulsions, confiscations and special taxes on Jews, mass murder of Jews in riots led by Church officials or by Catholics incited by Church accusations of the blood libel or for “desecrating the eucharist” (well this should be a start about the “non persecution of Jews” by the Catholic Church - that of course is not the Catholic Church of today - the Jesuit Order canceled their requirement that an applicant be able to prove back 5 generations that he is free of Jewish blood in 1946, the ability of the Catholic Church to apply these edicts on Jews ended with the Papal state and Pope Pius IX, Western states have granted Jews full equality under law and with the regaining of Jewish independence in the third Commonwealth no Jew need tolerate such persecution, Catholic attitudes underwent a fundamental change with Vatican II under the Righteous Gentile Pope John the XXIII and the Vatican has established diplomatic ties with Israel and in general has shown more understanding and sensitivity toward Jews ).

The Jews have been persecuted more than most because they are the Chosen People but they too have persecuted Christians and Muslims.

 

[John21652]

Of course the Catholic Church and not just people of the Catholic faith persecuted Jews. One needs only to take a cursory glance at Papal Bulls and Church edicts or to open a history book. The concepts of racial purity concerning Christians having Jewish ancestry, forcing Jews to live in ghettos, making Jews wear yellow clothing marking them as Jews, the burning of Jewish books, the forcing of Jews to attend lectures on Catholicism or to face punishment, the basic denial of the right to be employed or to employ or the right to attend places of learning or the right to freely engage in an occupation or the right of equality under law and in giving testimony, forced conversions of Jews and forced removal from their families of the forced converted, stealing of Jewish property through expulsions, confiscations and special taxes on Jews, mass murder of Jews in riots led by Church officials or by Catholics incited by Church accusations of the blood libel or for “desecrating the eucharist” (well this should be a start about the “non persecution of Jews” by the Catholic Church - that of course is not the Catholic Church of today - the Jesuit Order canceled their requirement that an applicant be able to prove back 5 generations that he is free of Jewish blood in 1946, the ability of the Catholic Church to apply these edicts on Jews ended with the Papal state and Pope Pius IX, Western states have granted Jews full equality under law and with the regaining of Jewish independence in the third Commonwealth no Jew need tolerate such persecution, Catholic attitudes underwent a fundamental change with Vatican II under the Righteous Gentile Pope John the XXIII and the Vatican has established diplomatic ties with Israel and in general has shown more understanding and sensitivity toward Jews ).

Hey Chosen People, can’t you read? This thread is about science in the dark ages. Max started the thread; we had a little exchange about his background and we are moving on to the subject at hand once again. if you wish to debate the persecution of the Jews i suggest you go start your own thread. If you have something to offer this thread other than what you have written, then fine, otherwise…

And by the way, should you have the courage to start your own thread, please be kind enough to offer some links to back up your assertions, else people will think your spouting hot air.

 

[John21652]

Hi John,

thought you might be interested in the the following link.

archive.org/details/popessciencehist00walsrich

Hi abucs.

That was quite a find you posted the link to. You can actually read the book online, which is pretty cool. The book throws up a wealth of names and instiutions many of which I’ve never heard before. Medicine was the subject of much enquiry at Universities during the middle ages and the author tells us on page 35 that he is a Professor of History of Medicine. He states on page 22 that the Church is famous for its patronage of the arts and charity, but that it was equally forward with its patronage of scholastic philosophy and science. On page 17 he writes of the “Galileo incident” and states that it was “an unfortunate incident and not policy”, but that incident has been continually thrown up and used to bury a lot of the developments made in science at the time. On page 24 he quotes Comte de Maistre who wrote “History for the last three centuries (1500-1800) has been a conspiracy against the truth”.

On page 90 he shows how the the so called Renaissance was actually a misnomer and eduacation in the arts and sciences preceded the Renaissance by at least three or four centuries.and on page 92 he writes that the Renaissance only took the work of previous scientific thinkers to new levels. On page 120 he debunks the notion that the church prevented the development of chemistry in the early 1300s and such a notion actually buried the developments made in chemistry during the middle ages. People believed the notion that the Church was against scientific development and actually stopped looking for the evidence. Interestingly, the author points out that as the United Staes began the twentieth century, Presidents of American Universities were trying to make the same number of years of study a requirement for a medical degree as did a medieval Pope, John XXII, once insist! It was this Pope who instituted the University of Cahors at Perugia as a “fountain of science”.

On page 197 the author tells us of the high state of surgical science in the 12th, 13th and 14th centuries, thanks to the medieval universities. On page 250 he tells us of the establishment of a city hospital, called The Holy Spirit, near the Vatican, on the orders of Pope Innocent III, which became famous in the 13th century as a place where the sick and wounded recieved excellent medical and nursing care. As a consequence, hospitals modelled on The Holy Spirit sprang up “throughout Christendom”, in what would later become the nation states of France, Germany, Holland and even England. The great teaching hospitalsn of London apparently are associated with King Edward VI, but in actual fact, that King was forced to rebuild what Henry VIII had torn down and what Henry VIII tore down had as its roots the decrees of Pope Innocent III when he instituted the Hospital system of Europe. The author tells us that medical teaching faculties also expected a high degree of competency from its students in mathematics and philosophy. On page 308 he quotes a Brother Potamian of Manhatten College who spoke of the earliest treatises of learned university enquirers who wrote of and investigated magnetism and navigation as early as the 12th century!

On page 315 the author tells us of Albert The Great1193-1280, who examined and wrote profusly on logic, theology, botany, geography, astronomy, astrology, mineralogy, chemistry, zoology, physiology, phrenology and others; all of which were the result of logic and observation. He was perhaps the most well-read author of his time. He digested, interpreted and systematized the whole of Aristotle’s works, gleaned from the Latin translations and notes of the Arabian commentators, in accordance with Church doctrine. Most modern knowledge of Aristotle was preserved and presented by Albertus. On page 315 he is quoted on surmising how the southern hemisphere of the earth is probably uninhabited and how the south polar region would be too cold to support life, except for animals well covered with fur. so much for the earth being flat in the middle ages!! On page 318 we are told that Albert, who taught at the universities of Paris and Cologne, surmised that the Milky Way was an “assemblage of stars” and lamented that “none of the ancients and few moderns were acquainted with the properties of mirrors”!!

On page 344 the author tells us how the famed Florentine poet, Dante (1265-1321)was actually an educated natural historian and a typical product of the university system of the time. In the 13th century, out of a population of 90,000 in Florence, 12,000 children attended school, highlighting the demand and respect for education at the time. Similar attendances were to be found in other European cities. On pages 350-351 the author shows how Dante’s extensive knowledge of astronomy is woven into his writings and poetry and that his knowledge rivals that of modern man. He holds Dante up as a man who travelled from country to country, absorbing all the available knowledge of his time, which is reflected in his writings.

In his Appendix, on page 390, the author, whilst focusing on the role of the Church in fostering science and education, shows that learning was very much alive and well during the middle ages. Although not without its hiccups.

That book, abucs, is quite a find and as a general reference and as a repository for more investigation and study it is a fantastic source. Well spotted!!

 

[chosen_people]

Hey Chosen People, can’t you read? This thread is about science in the dark ages. Max started the thread; we had a little exchange about his background and we are moving on to the subject at hand once again. if you wish to debate the persecution of the Jews i suggest you go start your own thread. If you have something to offer this thread other than what you have written, then fine, otherwise…

And by the way, should you have the courage to start your own thread, please be kind enough to offer some links to back up your assertions, else people will think your spouting hot air.

I would hope that most Catholics are familiar enough with the history of their Church and with history in general to know the difference between historical facts and “hot air”. It was not my intention to derail a thread but merely to respond to the baseless assertions here that the Catholic Church was not directly involved in the persecution of Jews over the centuries. To this had been added by another poster the spurious contention that Jews have similarily persecuted Christians and Muslims. Indeed we are in the “Dark Ages”. It is impossible to hope for true change in attitudes if there is a blanket denial as to what took place. As making false assertions does not apparently derail the thread unless those false assertions are challenged, I will merely add a link below to those who are interested as to Church and the ghetto, yellow clothing for Jews and forced lectures. For a little taste about forced baptism and removal see Mortara. Catholic pogroms see Martinez March 15, 1391, racial purity I gave you the Jesuit order. Those wishing the specific Papal bulls and edicts or additional examples are welcome to contact me.

myjewishlearning.com/history/Modern_History/Early_Modern/roman-ghetto.shtml

As to the contention that Jews have similarily persecuted Christians and Moslems, well now its my turn to ask for examples in say the last 1800 years or so.

 

[John21652]

I would hope that most Catholics are familiar enough with the history of their Church and with history in general to know the difference between historical facts and “hot air”. It was not my intention to derail a thread but merely to respond to the baseless assertions here that the Catholic Church was not directly involved in the persecution of Jews over the centuries. To this had been added by another poster the spurious contention that Jews have similarily persecuted Christians and Muslims. Indeed we are in the “Dark Ages”. It is impossible to hope for true change in attitudes if there is a blanket denial as to what took place. As making false assertions does not apparently derail the thread unless those false assertions are challenged, I will merely add a link below to those who are interested as to Church and the ghetto, yellow clothing for Jews and forced lectures. For a little taste about forced baptism and removal see Mortara. Catholic pogroms see Martinez March 15, 1391, racial purity I gave you the Jesuit order. Those wishing the specific Papal bulls and edicts or additional examples are welcome to contact me.

myjewishlearning.com/history/Modern_History/Early_Modern/roman-ghetto.shtml

As to the contention that Jews have similarily persecuted Christians and Moslems, well now its my turn to ask for examples in say the last 1800 years or so.

I’ll give you one thing, you have a thick hide. I hope your head isn’t of a similar construction. You seem intent on derailing this thread, regardless of what you write to the contary. Therefore I wont even bother to check your link. Try your own thread, if you have the courage, instead of derailing this one.