The "Dark Ages"

[TrinityKnot]

Hey everyone, I just had some quick thoughts and a question for you:

I go to a nondenominational protestant high school (the majority of people here are what you would consider “Born Again”) and today my Baptist english teacher began talking to us about the “Dark Ages” in Europe, particularly in England because this is a British Literature class. He said he doesn’t like the term “Dark Ages” very much (can’t remember why) but basically explained to us that they were called that because the Catholic church suppressed learning, academics, enlightenment, etc. whatever in order to remain in control and power. Therefor, there were not many writings produced during this time. Thus, why they are called the “Dark” ages.

He emphasized that he was not trying to bash any catholics at all and singled me out (he knows I’m catholic) asking if I was offended because my brother had him as a teacher last year and was. He said that the Catholic church was completely different today than it had been in the past (to which I thought: well… you’re kinda sorta right but you’re not being specific). I laughed and said I wasn’t offended because I was kinda put on the spot. And I’m not really offended, I just thought what he was saying didn’t sound right.

I’m a bit of history buff (more American than World). But I felt it wasn’t right because when I think of all of the saints that lived during this time, they produced a lot of writings, etc and of course some became doctors of the church (St. Anthony, St. Francis, St Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc). I researched a lot of these saints during my Confirmation class and even ended up picking St. Anthony as my saint.

Researching further, I’m finding most historians don’t even really use the term “Dark Ages” anymore because of developments that happened during this period such as the creation of universities, councils, parliaments, and a flourishing intellectual life.

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held? Was it because for some reason historians couldn’t find many writings from this time period or whatever? If you’d like to point me towards any materials I could read that would help me, I’d love to see them. Thanks for reading and giving your (name removed by moderator)ut guys! Cheers

 

[DavidFilmer]

The so-called “Dark Ages” were mainly brought about because of the barbarian conquests of Europe (including the conquest of the city of Rome itself). Barbarians were not effective at governance, and things kinda fell apart.

During this period, it was the Church that protected, preserved, and passed on the knowledge of the human race. It’s completely ludicrous to say that the Church is responsible for suppressing knowledge and learning - the Church was the center of knowledge and learning. As you said, universities were created during this time - and they were created by the Church.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

… He said he doesn’t like the term “Dark Ages” very much (can’t remember why) but basically explained to us that they were called that because the Catholic church suppressed learning, academics, enlightenment, etc. whatever in order to remain in control and power. Therefor, there were not many writings produced during this time. Thus, why they are called the “Dark” ages.

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held?

The term “Dark Ages” came about as a Protestant/Enlightenment smear campaign. The term is totally inaccurate and unprofessional, but it makes GREAT propaganda. The implication is that society was “kept in the dark” intellectually and spiritually because the Catholic Church was a superstitious money making machine that kept people down. Then the “light” came about as the Reformation and Enlightenment tore down the Catholic Church more and more and freed the people.

In reality, the timeframe was one of extraordinary Christian virtue, art, learning, etc, all diffused around Christendom. The ONLY person who would EVER call that a “dark” period is Satan himself, and whomever is ignorant enough to fall for it.

 

[IbnFiktur]

The proper, non-polemical academic term is the “early middle ages” or the “early medieval period.”

“Dark Ages” comes from anti-Catholic polemics. It’s a little absurd for him to blame the Catholic Church for that period in English history; we have little to no written evidence from the period precisely because the English re-converted to Paganism after the Romans left! It wasn’t until the spread of Christianity back into England from Irish (Catholic) monks and priests that written literature again came into being.

Such misnomers are typical of secondary educators, but any Professor of History would be able to set him straight. “Historians” don’t use that term, at least no historians worth reading.

 

[Mystophilus]

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held? Was it because for some reason historians couldn’t find many writings from this time period or whatever? If you’d like to point me towards any materials I could read that would help me, I’d love to see them. Thanks for reading and giving your (name removed by moderator)ut guys! Cheers

Most mediaevalists **don’t **call them the Dark Ages. In fact, mediaevalists tend to get rather ranty about the term, in much the same way that Egyptologists do when people start talking about pyramids being built by aliens. The people who do call them the Dark Ages tend to be those who do not specialise in the period, and who really ought to stay the heck out of it.

The term comes from Petrarch, and from the attempt among the literati of his time to differentiate themselves from preceding centuries which they represented as a period of ignorance well below their own sophistication.

 

[1ke]

I spend so much time in CCD correcting inaccurate information that the kids have gotten from either English/Language Arts or History/Social Studies it is NOT funny. These people can’t teach their way out of a paper bag. I truly weep for the future of America if this is what we get from the teachers.

 

[srferdave]

I just got back from italy. And I found it very interesting to hear from all the tour guides (who were not necessarily Catholic btw) how much the Catholic Church advanced in areas such as academics. I think i remember them saying that this was the time that the “University” systems was actually established. Not 100% sure about that though.

 

[1ke]

For your reading pleasure:

Those Terrible Middle Ages by Regine Pernoud
How the Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E Woods

 

[LegoGE1947]

For your reading pleasure:

Those Terrible Middle Ages by Regine Pernoud
How the Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E Woods

In my opinion, the “Dark Ages” are NOW! What with the decline in morals, the availability to abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research. Same sex marriage being considered “normal” etc. And the Catholic Church being marginalized in so many places, even by Catholic clergy and “religious.”

 

[oldcatholicguy]

So in effect he basically stated “I don’t want to offend Catholics, but based on my complete lack of any real understanding of the period it was the Church’s fault. But that’s ok because the Catholic Church of today isn’t the Catholic Church of that time period despite the fact that people (Catholic and non-Catholic) who actually know what they are talking about, of which I’m not one, say it is.”

Yeah, I’ve had these type of teachers. Just ignore him (you won’t change his mind; how could a student know more then him), finish the class and do your best not to have him as an instructor again.

 

[snarflemike]

The term “Dark Ages” came about as a Protestant/Enlightenment smear campaign. The term is totally inaccurate and unprofessional, but it makes GREAT propaganda. The implication is that society was “kept in the dark” intellectually and spiritually because the Catholic Church was a superstitious money making machine that kept people down. Then the “light” came about as the Reformation and Enlightenment tore down the Catholic Church more and more and freed the people.

In reality, the timeframe was one of extraordinary Christian virtue, art, learning, etc, all diffused around Christendom. The ONLY person who would EVER call that a “dark” period is Satan himself, and whomever is ignorant enough to fall for it.

What he said. Protestantism and the “Enlightenment” (not a loaded term, eh?) both had a strong self-interest in tearing down the Church.

 

[tabycat]

The Dark Ages could not have been as they seemed to be. They did produce the Book of
Kells. :irish1: :shamrock2: :harp: :knight1:

 

[IbnFiktur]

Every post in this thread has something good for you. I would sum it up as follows:

-REAL historians, regardless of religion, avoid polemical terms such as “Dark Ages.” This guy is a high school teacher who probably has never been subject to peer-reviewed academic scrutiny, and can thus get away pretty much anything.
-The Church played an instrumental role in preserving civilization in spite of the fall of the Western empire. There can be certain nuances made in regards to this point, but anyone who makes the broad claim that the Church was the cause of the decline of learning in the West has no idea what they’re talking about.
-There are lots of great books written on this topic. I for one would recommend Henri Pirenne’s History of Europe, Volume I and Muhammad and Charlemagne. Pirenne, writing in the 20th century, replaced the prevailing wisdom of Gibbon regarding the beginning of the early medieval period. While Pirenne is not immune from criticism himself (I wrote my thesis largely as a criticism of some of Pirenne’s thesis), he does offer a good, detailed take on the early middle ages in Western Europe.

Bottom line: read some good, peer-reviewed books (published by a University Press), and you’ll realize that your teacher is way out of his depth when he’s advocating these polemics.

(And again, not many texts were produced in early medieval England BECAUSE the Church disappeared from there after the Romans left, and only re-emerged AFTER Catholicism was re-introduced. Ironic that he would get it totally backwards )

 

[TrinityKnot]

Every post in this thread has something good for you. I would sum it up as follows:

-REAL historians, regardless of religion, avoid polemical terms such as “Dark Ages.” This guy is a high school teacher who probably has never been subject to peer-reviewed academic scrutiny, and can thus get away pretty much anything.
-The Church played an instrumental role in preserving civilization in spite of the fall of the Western empire. There can be certain nuances made in regards to this point, but anyone who makes the broad claim that the Church was the cause of the decline of learning in the West has no idea what they’re talking about.
-There are lots of great books written on this topic. I for one would recommend Henri Pirenne’s History of Europe, Volume I and Muhammad and Charlemagne. Pirenne, writing in the 20th century, replaced the prevailing wisdom of Gibbon regarding the beginning of the early medieval period. While Pirenne is not immune from criticism himself (I wrote my thesis largely as a criticism of some of Pirenne’s thesis), he does offer a good, detailed take on the early middle ages in Western Europe.

Bottom line: read some good, peer-reviewed books (published by a University Press), and you’ll realize that your teacher is way out of his depth when he’s advocating these polemics.

(And again, not many texts were produced in early medieval England BECAUSE the Church disappeared from there after the Romans left, and only re-emerged AFTER Catholicism was re-introduced. Ironic that he would get it totally backwards )

Agreed, everyone here has had fabulous posts and I’m glad for their posts! I can’t wait to get some reading done This is right up my alley and I’ve been meaning to do some research on church history. Now’s the time to start!

@oldcatholicdude I’m a senior this year, so I won’t ever have him again. No worries My brother did get irritated with him a few times last year but in the end they were okay. We both had to put up with a Geography/Western Civ class with another teacher who tried to teach about the formation of the Catholic church and was getting a few things wrong about core beliefs/not detailing them enough. It was actually funny; my brother and I would just glance at each other with these knowing smiles of “Can you believe this guy? HA”

@tabycat God bless the Irish! I’m an irish step dancer, and this just makes Ireland even better

Keep in mind he’s employed by a private Christian school. They employ anyone they see fit, regardless of if they would meet proper education requirements in say, the public school sector or something. For example, my French teacher last year had two degrees: French and Journalism. She did not have any teaching credits however and had never taught a day in her life. She was pretty cool and we did learn some things but she kinda did suck as a teacher. They were desperate, they knew she had graduated from there, and that she was still a Christian. BAM, hired. From her Facebook posts, I got a strong inclination she detested teaching there (she didn’t want to be a teacher) and was very happy when she was employed to write things for an online newspaper or something.

I had a chemistry teacher who argued last year in a chapel that sin was relevant to the person which is why he had never gotten drunk in his life (his father got into an accident DUI so he figured alcoholism ran in the family) but that maybe drinking for other people wouldn’t be a problem. I’m so happy I have a strong place in my church’s youth program and am friends with so many smart peers/adults because otherwise I’d be completely miserable. I look forward to going to a catholic college next year (hopefully Benedictine in Kansas) where I won’t have to put up with their nonsense anymore.

 

[IbnFiktur]

If you have an ipod or something, I highly recommend the following audio lecture series. The first (Early Middle Ages) is taught by a non-Catholic historian who offers a good, fair evaluation of early medieval history. The second (The Catholic Church) is taught by a Catholic historian who does a truly fantastic job of balancing his own faith with historical scrutiny.

Early Middle Ages:
thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=8267

The Catholic Church:
thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=6640

They seem a little pricey right now, but The Teaching Company periodically does fantastic sales. Check back in every few weeks, I got them both on “Audio Download” for $30 each.

These guys are University professors and experts in their fields. You will learn more listening to those lectures than you would your entire high school history career.

 

[TrinityKnot]

If you have an ipod or something, I highly recommend the following audio lecture series. The first (Early Middle Ages) is taught by a non-Catholic historian who offers a good, fair evaluation of early medieval history. The second (The Catholic Church) is taught by a Catholic historian who does a truly fantastic job of balancing his own faith with historical scrutiny.

Early Middle Ages:
thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=8267

The Catholic Church:
thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=6640

They seem a little pricey right now, but The Teaching Company periodically does fantastic sales. Check back in every few weeks, I got them both on “Audio Download” for $30 each.

These guys are University professors and experts in their fields. You will learn more listening to those lectures than you would your entire high school history career.

Thanks for the tip! I’ll look into it

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I spend so much time in CCD correcting inaccurate information that the kids have gotten from either English/Language Arts or History/Social Studies it is NOT funny. These people can’t teach their way out of a paper bag. I truly weep for the future of America if this is what we get from the teachers.

I went to a State University in the late 1950’s and graduated in 1961. At that time, many students who by their Junior Year, were failing in their Major( such as Mathematics, Physics, History, Painting, etc.), transferred to the School of Education to salvage their educational investment, because the standards of that school were much lower than that of the School of Arts and Sciences. Also, at that time the School of Education was largely populated by young women who, for the most part, attend college for the sole purpose of catching a husband.
I know there were some serious Education Majors, but they were in the minority…This plus the secondary school curriculum being “dumbed down” for societal reasons during the late 1960’s and '70’s is why we have the huge, ineffective bureaucracy we call an education system today.
Why do you think it is that people under 35 think that they are entitled to so much without having to pay for it? Because they are taught it in our wonderful schools-by teachers who are not only ill-educated themselves, but are protected by their Union from being terminated for incompetance.

 

[louisak]

I believe that the term “Dark Ages” actually has value, if used to refer to the period from the fall of the Roman Empire until the rise of the Medieval civilization - in other words, roughly the period from the 4th to the 10th/11th centuries A.D. During this period European civilization more or less disappeared, due to successive waves of barbarian invasions - the Goths, Vikings, Vandals and so on; with a partial revival of civilization in the time of Charlemagne (8th century).

The so called “Middle Ages” on the other hand - what a terrible name; some Catholic historians prefer to call it the Scholastic era as this was the age of the “Schoolmen”, i.e. Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and so forth. This was the period from the 11th to 16th centuries roughly speaking. The age of the rise of the universities, the first public hospitals, the great cathedrals, and so forth.

In the imagination of most people, however, the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages refer to the same thing, a period of supposed religious superstition and backwardness, and so forth.

 

[Farsight001]

Hey everyone, I just had some quick thoughts and a question for you:

I go to a nondenominational protestant high school (the majority of people here are what you would consider “Born Again”) and today my Baptist english teacher began talking to us about the “Dark Ages” in Europe, particularly in England because this is a British Literature class. He said he doesn’t like the term “Dark Ages” very much (can’t remember why) but basically explained to us that they were called that because the Catholic church suppressed learning, academics, enlightenment, etc. whatever in order to remain in control and power. Therefor, there were not many writings produced during this time. Thus, why they are called the “Dark” ages.

He emphasized that he was not trying to bash any catholics at all and singled me out (he knows I’m catholic) asking if I was offended because my brother had him as a teacher last year and was. He said that the Catholic church was completely different today than it had been in the past (to which I thought: well… you’re kinda sorta right but you’re not being specific). I laughed and said I wasn’t offended because I was kinda put on the spot. And I’m not really offended, I just thought what he was saying didn’t sound right.

I’m a bit of history buff (more American than World). But I felt it wasn’t right because when I think of all of the saints that lived during this time, they produced a lot of writings, etc and of course some became doctors of the church (St. Anthony, St. Francis, St Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc). I researched a lot of these saints during my Confirmation class and even ended up picking St. Anthony as my saint.

Researching further, I’m finding most historians don’t even really use the term “Dark Ages” anymore because of developments that happened during this period such as the creation of universities, councils, parliaments, and a flourishing intellectual life.

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held? Was it because for some reason historians couldn’t find many writings from this time period or whatever? If you’d like to point me towards any materials I could read that would help me, I’d love to see them. Thanks for reading and giving your (name removed by moderator)ut guys! Cheers

First you should ask your English teacher why in the world he’s trying to teach you history. He’s an English expert. He has no more education in history than you do.

As for why historians call them the dark ages - they don’t really do so anymore. There was much famine and plague, but far less oppression than most people assume, which is actually literally why historians tend to avoid the term now. In actuality, during the “dark ages”, which were really just the middle ages, there was a huge boom to academics and enlightenment. It produced more educated people than ever before, saw increased literacy rates, produced stained glass windows to teach the illiterate, spread the bible all over the world in some 50 languages. Your teacher’s claims could not get more inaccurate if he tried.

 

[Catholic80]

Hey everyone, I just had some quick thoughts and a question for you:

I go to a nondenominational protestant high school (the majority of people here are what you would consider “Born Again”) and today my Baptist english teacher began talking to us about the “Dark Ages” in Europe, particularly in England because this is a British Literature class. He said he doesn’t like the term “Dark Ages” very much (can’t remember why) but basically explained to us that they were called that because the Catholic church suppressed learning, academics, enlightenment, etc. whatever in order to remain in control and power. Therefor, there were not many writings produced during this time. Thus, why they are called the “Dark” ages.

He emphasized that he was not trying to bash any catholics at all and singled me out (he knows I’m catholic) asking if I was offended because my brother had him as a teacher last year and was. He said that the Catholic church was completely different today than it had been in the past (to which I thought: well… you’re kinda sorta right but you’re not being specific). I laughed and said I wasn’t offended because I was kinda put on the spot. And I’m not really offended, I just thought what he was saying didn’t sound right.

I’m a bit of history buff (more American than World). But I felt it wasn’t right because when I think of all of the saints that lived during this time, they produced a lot of writings, etc and of course some became doctors of the church (St. Anthony, St. Francis, St Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc). I researched a lot of these saints during my Confirmation class and even ended up picking St. Anthony as my saint.

Researching further, I’m finding most historians don’t even really use the term “Dark Ages” anymore because of developments that happened during this period such as the creation of universities, councils, parliaments, and a flourishing intellectual life.

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held? Was it because for some reason historians couldn’t find many writings from this time period or whatever? If you’d like to point me towards any materials I could read that would help me, I’d love to see them. Thanks for reading and giving your (name removed by moderator)ut guys! Cheers

It was dark in both the literal and figurative sense. There was a massive volcano eruption in the 6th century that covered a good portion of the earth for several years. This meant it was indeed “dark” outside and cold. Crops didn’t grow very well, and if you’ve ever lived in a place where it’s cloudy all the time, you can sympathize with how it affects people’s moods. If there was limited daylight, that means resources were scarce and therefore life was difficult. Dark skies - dark life.

There were also many significant events during this time, including the fall of the Roman Empire.

Read more here: nature.com/news/2008/080311/full/news.2008.665.html