The "Dark Ages"

[TrinityKnot]

First thing is first here I have to go back to the original post. Francis and Dominic are not Doctors of the Church. Anthony and Aquinas are. There are 33 total, just for reference. (Franciscans are- Anthony, Bonaventure, and Lawerence of Brindisi (Capuchin). Dominicans are Aquinas, Albert the Great, and Catherine of Siena.)

To the idea of the “Dark Ages” more globally- The term, if I remember this correctly, comes from the philosopher Hegel who had no love for that time period. While there were dark times like the Plague, Sacking of Rome, Leprosy, and any number of other minor calamaties no one from the Middle Ages would call it “Dark”. It was simply life. They couldn’t imagine it any other way.

It is also important to remember that the Middle Ages covers 1000 years-ish depending on your dating. Scholars divide it up into blocks to better describe the difrerences. The saints referenced in the original post are from what is called the “High” Middle Ages. It really comes to a head with people like Aquinas and Bonaventure (and to be fair to the minds later Scotus and Occam) which is made possible by the influx of Aristotle as a new way of thinking. The world is Augustininan (and therefore Neo-Platonic) from about 400 until 1150-1200. Aristotle, the Greek, comes to the University of Paris by way of Spain and Intrestingly, the Saracens. They had kept him alive- so well in fact we are pretty sure we have everything that was written by him.

Aristotle, even more interestingly, sets the stage for the “Enlightenment”. His natural philosophy, which Aquinas turns theological is essentially taken for what it is in Aristotle. The rise of science rests on Aristotle’s shoulders. You can actually see the transition happen in the strangest of places (as well as expected ones). The hagiography (the “lives” of the saints), especially the writings about Francis, start talking about “herbs” and other things the later they go on.

So, to sum this all up- the “Dark Ages” is a polemic essentially meant to deride the work of a lot of people who werent “scientific” enough. I also think this is why the modern church, for better or worse (I vote for the worse some of the time) leans so heavily on Aquinas. He is basically “scientific” which acts as a point of dialogue with the modern sciences. (read his epistmology for a great example).

Hope that helps.

Yep, you’re right about the doctors thing- my mistake! Thanks for the clarification

Thanks for your explanation, it helped!

 

[fred_conty]

The plague killed a third of Europe. That’s pretty dark.
Most of the people were very poor serfs. That seems pretty dark too.

Just a thought.

 

[LegoGE1947]

The plague killed a third of Europe. That’s pretty dark.
Most of the people were very poor serfs. That seems pretty dark too.

Just a thought.

Did they listen to Beach Boys music while they were "Serfin’?!

 

[1ke]

The plague killed a third of Europe. That’s pretty dark.

There were many plagues over many centuries. But the period of the Black Death that killed at least a quarter of th population in a relativley short time was in the latter half of the 14th century. The “Dark Ages” are usually assigned the dates from the fall of the Roman Empire to approximately the turn of the millenium. So, the plague was well after that time period.

 

[fred_conty]

Thanks for the info.

 

[fred_conty]

Did they listen to Beach Boys music while they were "Serfin’?!

No, it was more like watching tv in black and white.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

IF on is to use the term “Dark Ages” at all, it really should be no more from the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, circa 450 AD to the foundation and stabilization of the Carolingen Kingdoms circa 840 AD–and should ONLY refer to the period of invasions, political framentization, and loss of infrastructure.

It was the structre and the dispertion of the Church throughout Europe that allowed the West to survive and eventually recover. It was the Catholic Church’s conversion of Ireland that allowed Irish academics to copy and multiply ancient texts and Irish prelates to instruct the rest Europe when things had finaly stabilized just enough to have an audience that was receptive to something more than mere survival

See Thomas Cahill’s How the Irish Saved Civilization

 

[LegoGE1947]

No, it was more like watching tv in black and white.

Probably more black than white!

 

[TrinityKnot]

Excerpt from my book as I was reading today:

“The purpose of the History was to chart the spread of Christianity throughout England from Roman times to present. The Christianity was, of course, Catholicism. The doctrine of salvation through grace (Eph. 2:8-9) was largely lost to the Middle Ages, both then and later. The crucifixion was at the center of Catholic belief, and faith was necessary. But faith had to be supported by works; grace was conferred by the sacraments; and forgiveness of sin came through penance, a process involving a punishment set by the priest. Worship centered in the Mass, a supposedly miraculous re-enactment of the crucifixion through the blessing of bread and wine.
The Mass is an un-Biblical, idolatrous repetition of an event- the main event of history- which was accomplished “once” forever (Heb. 9:27-28; 10:11-12). In this re-sacrificing of Christ by the priest, the bread and wine are said to become the actual body and blood of the Redeemer. However, according to Scripture, Christ in that very body, “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God,” where He remains until His kingdom is complete (Heb. 10:12-13). His work as Intercessor make unnecessary and fraudulent the ministry of any human priest.”
-British Literature for Christian Schools, by Ronald A. Horton (published by Bob Jones University Press)

Yeeeep, it’s pretty anti-Catholic. At least I’ll be done with this school after this year.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

IF on is to use the term “Dark Ages” at all, it really should be no more from the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, circa 450 AD to the foundation and stabilization of the Carolingen Kingdoms circa 840 AD–and should ONLY refer to the period of invasions, political framentization, and loss of infrastructure.

The funny thing is that until I was “corrected” by a college professor I assumed that your above was the reason that time period was called the Dark Ages. Silly me and my independant thinking. I blame my parents for that.

 

[LegoGE1947]

The funny thing is that until I was “corrected” by a college professor I assumed that your above was the reason that time period was called the Dark Ages. Silly me and my independant thinking. I blame my parents for that.

Gotta watch that independant thinking. It’ll getcha every time!

 

[fred_conty]

Probably more black than white!

And probably only an 8 incher at that.

 

[LegoGE1947]

And probably only an 8 incher at that.

With a huge wooden cabinet and only 2 or 3 channels.

 

[fred_conty]

with pay-as-u-view.

 

[melekali]

Hey everyone, I just had some quick thoughts and a question for you:

I go to a nondenominational protestant high school (the majority of people here are what you would consider “Born Again”) and today my Baptist english teacher began talking to us about the “Dark Ages” in Europe, particularly in England because this is a British Literature class. He said he doesn’t like the term “Dark Ages” very much (can’t remember why) but basically explained to us that they were called that because the Catholic church suppressed learning, academics, enlightenment, etc. whatever in order to remain in control and power. Therefor, there were not many writings produced during this time. Thus, why they are called the “Dark” ages.

He emphasized that he was not trying to bash any catholics at all and singled me out (he knows I’m catholic) asking if I was offended because my brother had him as a teacher last year and was. He said that the Catholic church was completely different today than it had been in the past (to which I thought: well… you’re kinda sorta right but you’re not being specific). I laughed and said I wasn’t offended because I was kinda put on the spot. And I’m not really offended, I just thought what he was saying didn’t sound right.

I’m a bit of history buff (more American than World). But I felt it wasn’t right because when I think of all of the saints that lived during this time, they produced a lot of writings, etc and of course some became doctors of the church (St. Anthony, St. Francis, St Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc). I researched a lot of these saints during my Confirmation class and even ended up picking St. Anthony as my saint.

Researching further, I’m finding most historians don’t even really use the term “Dark Ages” anymore because of developments that happened during this period such as the creation of universities, councils, parliaments, and a flourishing intellectual life.

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held? Was it because for some reason historians couldn’t find many writings from this time period or whatever? If you’d like to point me towards any materials I could read that would help me, I’d love to see them. Thanks for reading and giving your (name removed by moderator)ut guys! Cheers

That first paragraph with the quote of the teacher reflects a complete ignorance of the history of England. The nation was established by St. Alfred and was the most Catholic and beautiful, wealthy and powerful of nations until Henry VIII destroyed not only his nation but his own people and the Church in that country for earthly vice. For 900 years there were no paupers in that nation. When Henry VIII and his predecessors got done with it, it was the most wretched of nations. I recommend “A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland” by William Cobbett, an English Protestant written in the early part of the 19th century.

 

[melekali]

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held? Was it because for some reason historians couldn’t find many writings from this time period or whatever? If you’d like to point me towards any materials I could read that would help me, I’d love to see them. Thanks for reading and giving your (name removed by moderator)ut guys! Cheers

Oh and sorry, it was called the dark ages because there aren’t many records of the era. That’s the historian’s answer. At least that’s the priest’s answer who is a historian and teaches many of our classes in the Deaconate.

 

[Ultramontain]

So, does anyone know why historians call them the “Dark Ages”? Was it because of the superstitions, science theories (like a flat earth), etc. people at the time held?

This is a false statement, it started as Protestant lies about the Church.

James Hannam

"The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the earth is flat appears to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896). Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes, but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and religion are locked in eternal conflict."

You may also like his book

The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution (About 10 Bucks). amazon.com/gp/product/1596981555/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=wwcl11-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1596981555

You may also like How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization By James Woods.
amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/0895260387

Or (or in addition) You can watch the short video version here.
youtube.com/watch?v=niIAJC24zd4&feature=relmfu

Or you can watch the full Short TV show in 2 hours
youtube.com/watch?v=lYcI9KzlIIk&feature=related

Don’t be fooled, I myself has a Protestant “Renaissance and reformation” teacher who put her ignorant ideas forward. She called the 13th Century the top of the “Dark ages” She clearly never read the book “The Thirteenth, Greatest of Centuries”

 

[Farsight001]

Oh and sorry, it was called the dark ages because there aren’t many records of the era. That’s the historian’s answer. At least that’s the priest’s answer who is a historian and teaches many of our classes in the Deaconate.

This is true. Writings were scarce because paper and ink was scarce. Muslim control of trade routes blocked paper and ink to prevent the writing of more bibles. What little writings we have from large chunks of this era see the authors writing all over the margins, and around holes in the paper, etc.

 

[robwar]

Excerpt from my book as I was reading today:

“The purpose of the History was to chart the spread of Christianity throughout England from Roman times to present. The Christianity was, of course, Catholicism. The doctrine of salvation through grace (Eph. 2:8-9) was largely lost to the Middle Ages, both then and later. The crucifixion was at the center of Catholic belief, and faith was necessary. But faith had to be supported by works; grace was conferred by the sacraments; and forgiveness of sin came through penance, a process involving a punishment set by the priest. Worship centered in the Mass, a supposedly miraculous re-enactment of the crucifixion through the blessing of bread and wine.
The Mass is an un-Biblical, idolatrous repetition of an event- the main event of history- which was accomplished “once” forever (Heb. 9:27-28; 10:11-12). In this re-sacrificing of Christ by the priest, the bread and wine are said to become the actual body and blood of the Redeemer. However, according to Scripture, Christ in that very body, “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God,” where He remains until His kingdom is complete (Heb. 10:12-13). His work as Intercessor make unnecessary and fraudulent the ministry of any human priest.”
-British Literature for Christian Schools, by Ronald A. Horton (published by Bob Jones University Press)

Yeeeep, it’s pretty anti-Catholic. At least I’ll be done with this school after this year.

How did you end up in a protestant school like this? Were there no Catholic schools for you to go to? At least in Catholic schools, you would not be getting the analogy that the Catholic church suppressed knowledge and this is why they are the dark ages. I am just curious how or why you ended up there.

 

[robwar]

This is true. Writings were scarce because paper and ink was scarce. Muslim control of trade routes blocked paper and ink to prevent the writing of more bibles. What little writings we have from large chunks of this era see the authors writing all over the margins, and around holes in the paper, etc.

that is also why the Bible was hard to get, another commonly promoted myth. the bible was scarce because it is a big book that had to be copied by hand (until the Gutenburg press).
In order to control the accuracy of hand copying, the church had dedicated monks to do it.
The bible was not scarce because that bad old catholic church was trying to suppress it and keep it from the common man (although most of the common men and women were illiterate and couldn’t read anyway.)