The Dark Side of Welfare

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I will fill in the years you left out:

1999 17.1
1998 18.9
1997 19.9
1996 20.5
I posted everyh 5th year – so I also “left out” 1961, 1973, 1988 and so on. But I gave enough to show the general trend.
Also you find that in 60’s before Johnson and Congress passed sweeping anti-poverty laws it was in the mid 20’s in the 70’s it was well under 20 percentile and in the 80’s it climbed into the 20’s and then started back down in the 90’s and starting to inch back up fortunately at a slower rate after 2001.
What you find is that poverty was dropping** before** the Great Society went into effect – on the order of 5% every five years. Once the Great Society kicked in, that dramatic drop came to a halt and poverty has hovered between 15 and 20% ever since.
 
I doubt it.

Yes, it is a small step.

Now, where are the programs to take people who have never worked and make them capable of supporting themselves?

“Much harder for him to get a job than we all thought?” Who is we?

The impact of this was apparent within months – and yet the policy persisted for more than a generation.

Actually, the pattern is for males to move in and out – hardly a stable family!!

Are you telling me that less than a third of all babies are born out of wedlock these days? That the high school dropout rate is substantially less than 28- 30%? That the poverty rate is dropping dramatically these days?

You have cites to show all that?

It’s the same-old, same-old. My wife does more with her mentoring than the starte – in this town, at any rate.

Really? You are not responsible for what you post?

And God save that child from the public assistance programs we have in this country
Dear annie,
Thank you for your thoughts.
You are up against a confrontationalist, I’m afraid. Nothing you say that doesn’t support his view of the world will escape his scrutiny. I hesitate to post anything for that reason. 😦
 
Dear annie,
Thank you for your thoughts.
You are up against a confrontationalist, I’m afraid. Nothing you say that doesn’t support his view of the world will escape his scrutiny. I hesitate to post anything for that reason. 😦
I noticed that too. So I consciously try to manuever around all of that. “Confrontationlist” is an apt description. Pray for him and all of our posters. (Remember me too, in your prayers.)
 
I noticed that too. So I consciously try to manuever around all of that. “Confrontationlist” is an apt description. Pray for him and all of our posters. (Remember me too, in your prayers.)
I certainly will, JJ…for all of us. Thank you for that. 🙂 👍
 
Dear annie,
Thank you for your thoughts.
You are up against a confrontationalist, I’m afraid. Nothing you say that doesn’t support his view of the world will escape his scrutiny. I hesitate to post anything for that reason. 😦
Is this a debate forum or a gossip forum? Are we here to discuss ideas, or trade tidbits about other people (“My dear! Did you see that hat?”)

When one debates, one must expect others to disagree – that’s why it’s called debate. In the ideal world, when one cannot defend one’s position with rational responses, one is converted.

But of course in real world, people sometimes react with emotion, and not logic.
 
Is this a debate forum or a gossip forum? Are we here to discuss ideas, or trade tidbits about other people (“My dear! Did you see that hat?”)

When one debates, one must expect others to disagree – that’s why it’s called debate. In the ideal world, when one cannot defend one’s position with rational responses, one is converted.

But of course in real world, people sometimes react with emotion, and not logic.
I rest my case. Prayers are coming your way, Mr. Vern.
 
I rest my case. Prayers are coming your way, Mr. Vern.
I wouldn’t want you to take time from your gossiping.

But if you are going to pray, pray for yourself. Examine your own heart and ask yourself why you feel such hostility to others.
 
I wouldn’t want you to take time from your gossiping. quite sarcastic and…perhaps hostile??? ever heard of “projection”

But if you are going to pray, pray for yourself. Examine your own heart and ask yourself why you feel such hostility to others.
🤷 🤷 Sir, your perceptions…are just that: **yours. **
I feel no hostility toward you by saying you are a confrontation-seeker. I have your permission to express my opinion, do I not?? It is you who have called our opinions “gossip”. We are in an open forum here, and did not talk behind anyone’s back.

You may reject our prayers, but we offer them sincerely. 🙂
I expect that you’re going to insist on having the last word…go for it! 🤷 :rolleyes:
 
On other threads I have discussed Saint Paul’s admonitiions against giving charity to those who can work, or who have families to care for them – and the negative impact on those who receive such charity. This has spawned several otehr threads. This thread looks at how welfare has become an economic strategy, a way of life, perpetuating itself generation after generation.
In 2 Thessalonians,Paul was talking about himself and his own circle of disciples. He did not want to be a burden to the Thessalonian Christians by receiving free food from them,but wanted to show exemplary behavior by working in toil and drudgery. This was an agreement that Paul and his disciples,and the Thessalonians had made with each other. Paul was strict with himself and his disciples in that regard,but he did not apply that rule to those outside of his circle.
Paul would have been very generous toward anyone in need,even if they were unworthy of help. So Paul’s rule that those who were unwilling to work should not eat should not be held as a general moral rule. As Christians,we are not justified in refusing help to those outside of our circle who are in need when they seem to be unworthy of our help. We have no prior agreement to a rule with strangers in need. Our first concern should not be whether a person is worthy or unworthy of our help,our first concern should be to give to those in need.
 
In 2 Thessalonians,Paul was talking about himself and his own circle of disciples. He did not want to be a burden to the Thessalonian Christians by receiving free food from them,but wanted to show exemplary behavior by working in toil and drudgery.ee
Close, but no cigar.
7 For you know how one must imitate us. For we did not act in a disorderly way among you,
8 nor did we eat food received free from anyone. On the contrary, in toil and drudgery, night and day we worked, so as not to burden any of you.
9 Not that we do not have the right. Rather, we wanted to present ourselves as a model for you, so that you might imitate us.
10 In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.
Paul is indeed setting the example. But he does it with a purpose – to show that everyone who can support himself, must support himself. The punchline is in verse 10, “if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.”

Now, Paul wasn’t a mean old man – he was a holy and loving man, a man who sacrificed everything – including his life – for Christ and for his fellow Christians.

He was also a practical man – he saw how some people were quite willing to live on the charity of others (and this isn’t the only epistle where he discusses the problem.) He saw how that has a deleterious impact on the one receiving charity (as we see it today) and how it sucked down resources needed by those who could not support themselves.
In
This was an agreement that Paul and his disciples,and the Thessalonians had made with each other. Paul was strict with himself and his disciples in that regard,but he did not apply that rule to those outside of his circle.
Yes, he did!!

The general application is here: “if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.”

He drives the message home in 1 Timothy, 5-3, 13:

Note these widows are not part of “his circle.”
3 Honor widows who are truly widows.
4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let these first learn to perform their religious duty to their own family and to make recompense to their parents, for this is pleasing to God.
5 The real widow, who is all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day.
6 But the one who is self-indulgent is dead while she lives.
7 Command this, so that they may be irreproachable.
8 And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years old, married only once,
10 with a reputation for good works, namely, that she has raised children, practiced hospitality, washed the feet of the holy ones, helped those in distress, involved herself in every good work.
11 But exclude younger widows, for when their sensuality estranges them from Christ, they want to marry
12 and will incur condemnation for breaking their first pledge.
13 And furthermore, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers but gossips and busybodies as well, talking about things that ought not to be mentioned.
Note again how he stresses the negative impact of excess charity on the recipients in verses 11-13.
Paul would have been very generous toward anyone in need,even if they were unworthy of help. So Paul’s rule that those who were unwilling to work should not eat should not be held as a general moral rule.
He clearly meant it to be held as a general moral rule!!
As Christians,we are not justified in refusing help to those outside of our circle who are in need when they seem to be unworthy of our help.
Unworthy and unable are two different things. We help those who are unable to help themselves, regardless of any idea of their “worth.” But Paul clearly says those who can help themselves must help themselves – and explains why.
We have no prior agreement to a rule with strangers in need. Our first concern should not be whether a person is worthy or unworthy of our help,our first concern should be to give to those in need.
You are confounding the idea of “worth” with the idea of “ability.” Those who have the ability to care for themselves must care for themselves. Those who do not have the ability to care for themselves are proper obejcts of Charity – regardless of any perception of their “worth.”
 
Recently I ran into some 50-something men who say no one will hire them becaue of their age. A good warning: Get training before 50 in work you can do after 50. Employers don’t want to train newcomers so near retirement, and not all of us can do musclework after 50.
 
Recently I ran into some 50-something men who say no one will hire them becaue of their age. A good warning: Get training before 50 in work you can do after 50. Employers don’t want to train newcomers so near retirement, and not all of us can do musclework after 50.
Ugrade your skills constantly – with formal training or informally. And always seek more responsibiliy. That’s the best advice anyone can give.

I knew a fellow when I worked under contract at General Motors. He was a draftsman, about 50 years old, and refused to attend the Computer Aided Drafting/Computer Aided Manufacturing courses they kept scheduling him for.

His excuse was, “Someday all these computers are going to break down and then they’ll need real draftsmen like me.”

And I used to think to myself, “Yeah, and if we keep dancing the Ghost Dance and wearing our Ghost Shirts, the buffalo are going to come back, too.”😛
 
🤷 🤷 Sir, your perceptions…are just that: **yours. **
I feel no hostility toward you by saying you are a confrontation-seeker. I have your permission to express my opinion, do I not?? It is you who have called our opinions “gossip”. We are in an open forum here, and did not talk behind anyone’s back.

You may reject our prayers, but we offer them sincerely. 🙂
I expect that you’re going to insist on having the last word…go for it! 🤷 :rolleyes:
One way to get rid of a “confrontationalist” is to UINSUBSCRIBE this thread. Let him have it and get on with other things. Who needs all this anyway? All it does is leave a bad taste.
 
Paul is indeed setting the example. But he does it with a purpose – to show that everyone who can support himself, must support himself. The punchline is in verse 10, “if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.”

That punchline is in the context of Paul,as a leader,instructing a Christian community over which he had spiritual jurisdiction.

Now, Paul wasn’t a mean old man – he was a holy and loving man, a man who sacrificed everything – including his life – for Christ and for his fellow Christians.

He was also a practical man – he saw how some people were quite willing to live on the charity of others (and this isn’t the only epistle where he discusses the problem.) He saw how that has a deleterious impact on the one receiving charity (as we see it today) and how it sucked down resources needed by those who could not support themselves.

Yes, he did!!

Paul could not hold those outside of the Christian communities to that rule.
If Paul came across a person in need who was not under his spiritual jurisdiction,then Paul’s rule would not be binding over that person. Paul would have just been hard-hearted if he had applied that rule to a stranger in dire need,and it would fly against Paul’s ideas on grace. If Paul could bless his persecutors – those who wanted to kill him and who blasphemed God,he could certainly give food to a wastrel in need.

The general application is here: “if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.”

It could only have had general application within the Christian communities. And even so,it would not have nullified the greater rule of “Give to everyone who asks of you” (Luke 6,30).

He drives the message home in 1 Timothy, 5-3, 13:

Note these widows are not part of “his circle.”

I can concede that they are not part of Paul’s circle,but they are a Christian community that Paul commisioned Timothy to set in order.

Note again how he stresses the negative impact of excess charity on the recipients in verses 11-13.

He clearly meant it to be held as a general moral rule!!

It was a rule for Christian communities to abide by,being agreed in their faith,and hence,values.

Unworthy and unable are two different things. We help those who are unable to help themselves, regardless of any idea of their “worth.” But Paul clearly says those who can help themselves must help themselves – and explains why.

When we come across a person who is not helping himself,we do not always know how able or unable he really is. His unwillingness to work can be,in effect, indistinguishable from the inability to work,the inability to function well. But we are still led to think that he is unworthy of our help.

You are confounding the idea of “worth” with the idea of “ability.” Those who have the ability to care for themselves must care for themselves. Those who do not have the ability to care for themselves are proper obejcts of Charity – regardless of any perception of their “worth.”

Again,we do not really know just how able or unable strangers
are to care for themselves. They may not even know how able they are either,and may not be convinced even if we told them how able they are. But even though we don’t know their ability or inability, we are still inclined to think in terms of worthiness or unworthiness.
 
This is difficult to do without using the quote feature – pardon me if I cut out the preceding text.
That punchline is in the context of Paul,as a leader,instructing a Christian community over which he had spiritual jurisdiction.
Correct – it was to them he addressed his directive. Those who did not work (but who were able to work) should not eat at the expense of the community.
Paul could not hold those outside of the Christian communities to that rule.
What’s your point?
If Paul came across a person in need who was not under his spiritual jurisdiction,then Paul’s rule would not be binding over that person. Paul would have just been hard-hearted if he had applied that rule to a stranger in dire need,and it would fly against Paul’s ideas on grace. If Paul could bless his persecutors – those who wanted to kill him and who blasphemed God,he could certainly give food to a wastrel in need.
What’s the evidence that Paul would allow an able-bodied pagan to bleed the community of its of sustenance, but not an able-bodied Christian?

Instead of hypothisizing about what Paul would do, show what Paul did do. Is there anything in scripture or tradition that has Paul feeding those who can feed themselves?
It could only have had general application within the Christian communities. And even so,it would not have nullified the greater rule of “Give to everyone who asks of you” (Luke 6,30).
Let’s read the whole thing:
20 And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.
21 Blessed are you who are now hungry, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who are now weeping, for you will laugh.
22 Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man.
23 Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way.
24 But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.
25 But woe to you who are filled now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will grieve and weep.
26 Woe to you when all speak well of you, for their ancestors treated the false prophets in this way.
27 "But to you who hear I say, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29 To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak, do not withhold even your tunic.
30 Give to everyone who asks of you, and from the one who takes what is yours do not demand it back.
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 For if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.
I can concede that they are not part of Paul’s circle,but they are a Christian community that Paul commisioned Timothy to set in order.
Again, what’s your point? Paul does not say that pagans ride free.
When we come across a person who is not helping himself,we do not always know how able or unable he really is. His unwillingness to work can be,in effect, indistinguishable from the inability to work,the inability to function well. But we are still led to think that he is unworthy of our help.
And when we come across someone who is bleeding we don’t always know why – so we check him out, find the cause of his injury so we can treat it.

If it turns out he spilled catsup on himself, we don’t take him to the hospital.
Again,we do not really know just how able or unable strangers
are to care for themselves. They may not even know how able they are either,and may not be convinced even if we told them how able they are. But even though we don’t know their ability or inability, we are still inclined to think in terms of worthiness or unworthiness.
That’s why we check to see if it’s blood or catsup before we load him in the ambulance. If a pagan comes to us in need, we help him. If it turns out he’s freeloading on the Christian community, we have no obligation to continue feeding him.

(If I haven’t addressed everything, it’s because it’s difficult without the quotes.)
 
Thank you to all who participated, this thread is now closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
 
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