The Darker Ages?

[Scarecrow]

I’ve been reading the news since I first learned to read – the headlines are always full of impending catestrophes. It’s been that way for as long as we’ve had newspapers and newsmedia.

try reading this:

foreignaffairs.org/20070301faessay86203/daniel-w-drezner/the-new-new-world-order.html

 

[vern_humphrey]

try reading this:

foreignaffairs.org/20070301faessay86203/daniel-w-drezner/the-new-new-world-order.html

Summary: Controversies over the war in Iraq and U.S. unilateralism have overshadowed a more pragmatic and multilateral component of the Bush administration’s grand strategy: its attempt to reconfigure U.S. foreign policy and international institutions in order to account for shifts in the global distribution of power and the emergence of states such as China and India. This unheralded move is well intentioned and well advised, and Washington should redouble its efforts.

I do not see a prediction of some vast Gotterdamerung in that

 

[SoCalRC]

Perhaps, but I don’t see why, as long as you don’t misrepresent what the older scholars said.

Bingo. We can address bias, but it is intellectually dishonest to deny the connotation the term had when it was first coined in a historical context.

I also think that the phrase ‘few records’, is being abused. How about the prolific works of St. Augustine? Or the catalog from the Columcille monastery in Ireland? Yes, some written source pools are small, for example, I think that there are only about 2,000 writs and charters from Anglo-Saxon England. But we have substantial records of some significant events in other parts Europe.

More importantly, it had appeared that the ‘record’ was thin in other areas as well. Buildings, durable works, even pottery. It was the overall thinness of the a historical record that helped keep the backwards, impoverished, superstitious view alive. It wasn’t really until scholars began studying the issue in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that perceptions began to change. And a lot of this cange came, not from reading, but from other fields of study, like archeology. See scientific historian David Linderg’s articles for the Medieval Acadamy of America and his book THE BEGINNINGS OF WESTERN SCIENCE. He does a fine job of making the case that the archeological record supports a far more sophisticated view of technology for the period.

This is why I found Vern’s assertion of civic record based history so odd, since it was other primary sources that really led historians to rethink the period in the first place.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is why I found Vern’s assertion of civic record based history so odd, since it was other primary sources that really led historians to rethink the period in the first place.

What assertion of “civic record?”

 

[rpp]

When and where was the term “Dark Ages” first used?

SoCalRC, St. Augustine died in 438, decades before the advent of the “Dark Ages”.

As for your reference the the Columcille monastery in Ireland, that is far too focused. Monasteries throughout Italy and Spain preserved many works. That is how we still have them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When and where was the term “Dark Ages” first used?

This concept of a dark age was created by the Italian scholar Petrarch (Francesco Petrarca) in the 1330s, and was originally intended as a sweeping criticism of the character of Late Latin literature. Later historians expanded the term to refer to the transitional period between Classical Roman Antiquity and the High Middle Ages, including not only the lack of Latin literature, but also a lack of contemporary written history, general demographic decline, limited building activity and material cultural achievements in general

SoCalRC, St. Augustine died in 438, decades before the advent of the “Dark Ages”.

Correct – the period in which Augustine lived was called “Ancient History” by historians. He died before the fall of the Roman Empire, and cannot be considered a “Dark Ages” figure.

As for your reference the the Columcille monastery in Ireland, that is far too focused. Monasteries throughout Italy and Spain preserved many works. That is how we still have them.

By any stretch, the Dark Ages do not apply to Ireland – Ireland was never conquered by the Romans, was not part of Roman civilization and culture, and – despite being raided by Vikings and the establishment of Viking towns along the coast – was not over-run by barbarians during the Age of Migrations.

 

[kms123]

When and where was the term “Dark Ages” first used?

SoCalRC, St. Augustine died in 438, decades before the advent of the “Dark Ages”.

As for your reference the the Columcille monastery in Ireland, that is far too focused. Monasteries throughout Italy and Spain preserved many works. That is how we still have them.

This may not be a good source since it says “citation needed”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Middle_Ages

The era of the migrations has historically been termed the “Dark Ages” by some Western European historians, and as Völkerwanderung, or “wandering of the peoples”, by German historians. The term Dark Ages has fallen from favour since the Second World War, partly to avoid the entrenched stereotypes associated with the phrase, but also because more recent research and archaeological findings from the period challenge old notions of backwardness in the arts, technology, political and social organizations.[citation needed]

 

[anthony022071]

Obviously we aren’t just talking about accidents of preservation, but about a period when less was written because civilization was more “primitive.” Historians are simply unwilling nowadays to make these kinds of value judgments.

It’s one thing if modern historians don’t want to make negative value judgements,but they shouldn’t try to re-define what was meant by Dark Ages. The men of the Renaissance and Enlightenment had their reasons for their contempt for that era,and that is a part of history that needs to be acknowledged.

The point is that we don’t want any longer to say that this period was somehow “bad” or unworthy of study or a time of moral and intellectual decadence or anything like that.

Avoiding value judgements about an era is not necessarily better than making them. That is tantamount to moral relativism. The morally bad aspects of an era should be pointed out for just how bad they were.

I certainly do not think that the Enlightenment was superior (on the whole) to the periods that preceded it. Do you?

My point was that it would be absurd for a historian to say that the Enlightenment was so called because the abundance of written accounts. Likewise,it’s silly for historians to say that the Dark Ages are so called because of the paucity of written accounts.

 

[SoCalRC]

When and where was the term “Dark Ages” first used?

As I noted above, Petrarch (Francesco Petrarca) is credited with the term. He was criticising a specfic period of ‘stagnant’ Latin literature. A number of Protestant writers expanded the usage to the caraciture most know today.

SoCalRC, St. Augustine died in 438, decades before the advent of the “Dark Ages”.

St. Augustine described himself as a witness of the collapse of civilization. Certainly, he is one of the fathers of medieval thought.

As for your reference the the Columcille monastery in Ireland, that is far too focused. Monasteries throughout Italy and Spain preserved many works. That is how we still have them.

That was my point - just one instance, and a large number of documents. Columcille seemed an appropriate example in that it was not just a repository of preserved ‘classic’ documents, but also a source of several contemporary chronicle works.

 

[vern_humphrey]

St. Augustine described himself as a witness of the collapse of civilization. Certainly, he is one of the fathers of medieval thought.

Nevertheless, Saint Augustine is a figure from the late Classical or Ancient age, not the Dark Ages.

That was my point - just one instance, and a large number of documents. Columcille seemed an appropriate example in that it was not just a repository of preserved ‘classic’ documents, but also a source of several contemporary chronicle works.

And a poor point it is – since Ireland was never part of Roman civilization or culture, and was not over-run by the barbarians.

 

[SoCalRC]

By any stretch, the Dark Ages do not apply to Ireland – Ireland was never conquered by the Romans, was not part of Roman civilization and culture, and – despite being raided by Vikings and the establishment of Viking towns along the coast – was not over-run by barbarians during the Age of Migrations.

Ah, so now you are not just talking about a span of history, but specific societal pockets… I’m sorry, but even using that definition Ireland remains relevant because the contemporary chronicles there mention events in Britain. They may be external observations, but observations none the less.

On another note, I’d already mentioned Petrarch as the source of the term several posts ago. If someone is interesting in that aspect I’d suggest a source other than Wikipedia, which you appear to be quoting.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ah, so now you are not just talking about a span of history, but specific societal pockets… I’m sorry, but even using that definition Ireland remains relevant because the contemporary chronicles there mention events in Britain. They may be external observations, but observations none the less.

What’s your degree in, sophistry?

On another note, I’d already mentioned Petrarch as the source of the term several posts ago. If someone is interesting in that aspect I’d suggest a source other than Wikipedia, which you appear to be quoting.

But I mentioned Petrarch before you did.

And as for “appear to be quoting” – when I first posted this I identified the source.

 

[SoCalRC]

Nevertheless, Saint Augustine is a figure from the late Classical or Ancient age, not the Dark Ages.

You should actually read Petrarch instead of just Wikipedia. In the original context, you will find Augustine of Hippo mentioned by name.

 

[rpp]

When looking at this period of history, from the perspective of the record-keeping at the time, there are some things that should be kept in mind.

The rate of literacy plummeted.

Technology, including paper making, retreated.

Paper was not widely produced.

Few, if any places in Continental Europe, went more than half a generation without a major war.

There were migrations of whole peoples, including Huns, Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, and Aryans. These people either displaced those already there or were assimilated.

In short, there was much upheaval, political, social and physical.

But this really only affected continental Europe. Africa, the Moslem world, India, China, etc. These places did not experience a “Dark Age” during that time.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You should actually read Petrarch instead of just Wikipedia. In the original context, you will find Augustine of Hippo mentioned by name.

Don’t get your nether garments in disarray.

Augustine lived in the Late Classical or Ancient period.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When looking at this period of history, from the perspective of the record-keeping at the time, there are some things that should be kept in mind.

The rate of literacy plummeted.

Technology, including paper making, retreated.

Paper was not widely produced.

Few, if any places in Continental Europe, went more than half a generation without a major war.

There were migrations of whole peoples, including Huns, Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, and Aryans. These people either displaced those already there or were assimilated.

In short, there was much upheaval, political, social and physical.

But this really only affected continental Europe. Africa, the Moslem world, India, China, etc. These places did not experience a “Dark Age” during that time.

And to the historian, it was indeed a dark age.

Now, we can combine many techniques, including archeology with history and learn more about the Dark Ages. But we can use those same combined techniques to learn more about other eras, too – so when we compare ages, it’s basically a wash.

 

[SoCalRC]

What’s your degree in, sophistry?

But I mentioned Petrarch before you did.

And as for “appear to be quoting” – when I first posted this I identified the source.

Once again, I lay mortally wounded by your rapier wit. The brilliance of the ‘neener neener’ argument alone is almost beyond description. I haven’t seen it used so deftly since the infamous ‘loogie fight’ of '54…

 

[rpp]

What’s your degree in, sophistry?

But I mentioned Petrarch before you did.

And as for “appear to be quoting” – when I first posted this I identified the source.

Once again, I lay mortally wounded by your rapier wit. The brilliance of the ‘neener neener’ argument alone is almost beyond description. I haven’t seen it used so deftly since the infamous ‘loogie fight’ of '54…

Apparently SoCalRC’s degree is in Sophistry!

 

[SoCalRC]

Now, we can combine many techniques, including archeology with history and learn more about the Dark Ages. But we can use those same combined techniques to learn more about other eras, too – so when we compare ages, it’s basically a wash.

Ah, thankfully the circle is once again complete. If nothing else, you are predictable…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ah, thankfully the circle is once again complete. If nothing else, you are predictable…

So you majored in sophistry and minored in insults?