The Darker Ages?

[colliric]

Can you back that up with real data?

How does employing millions of people and producing the goods and services the rest of us need add up to “not so good?”

I personally think it leads to mum and pop businesses going out of business and to some business practices that are not wanted, like manufacturing material in a third world country just to appease the shareholders.

Meh, it’s my opinion.

 

[steveandersen]

Slavery outlawed? Tell that to all the modern-day descendants of African-American slaves.

While the Arabs and the Africans themselves were blithely engaged in the African slave trade the Europeans (the region the “dark ages” is usually connected with) were too busy fighting barbarian hordes, and each other during the Dark Ages to venture to Africa for slaves or anything else.
The slave trade between Africa and the Americas is a 16th century creation. Centuries after the end of the dark ages

Slavery and its near cousins such as serfdom or debt-slavery were very much alive and kicking. …

Yes, sad but true. In fact IIRC the English word slave comes from “Slav”. The Slavic peoples moved in to eastern and central Europe during the Dark Ages and it was considered immoral to enslave you own people so the foreigners were the slaves.
(Your own people could be kept in peonage however that was considered part of the moral social contract. The Peasant in his field, the priest in his pulpit, the noble in his castle.)*

*Actually that French feudal model hadn’t really established itself yet. The Dark ages were quite fluid with whole groups of people, cultures, and religions being displaced. Many of the customs and laws tying peasants to the land were of late Roman origin. Many of the customs involving pledges of mutual protection and military service were either based on tribal societies or were born out of necessity as the Legions disappeared or went into business for themselves and the barbarians came of the walls.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I personally think it leads to mum and pop businesses going out of business and to some business practices that are not wanted, like manufacturing material in a third world country just to appease the shareholders.

Meh, it’s my opinion.

Got something to back that up?

Can you show that there are fewer mom-and-pop businesses in the country now than, say 20 years ago?

 

[LilyM]

While the Arabs and the Africans themselves were blithely engaged in the African slave trade the Europeans (the region the “dark ages” is usually connected with) were too busy fighting barbarian hordes, and each other during the Dark Ages to venture to Africa for slaves or anything else.
The slave trade between Africa and the Americas is a 16th century creation. Centuries after the end of the dark ages

If memory serves the Crusaders didn’t leave the Middle East and return to Europe without bringing back some African or Middle Eastern slaves. Christians in Spain didn’t need to travel at all to make prisoners and slaves of the Moors they may have defeated in battle. (At this stage the Moors had the lions’ share of the victories and spoils though).

In any event to the best of my knowledge it wasn’t illegal to own slaves, even if not widely practiced for practical reasons.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Many of the customs and laws tying peasants to the land were of late Roman origin.

Quite true, the Emperor Diocletian is directly responsible for how the dark ages turned out. If your father was a farmer, you were a farmer, if your father was a miller, you were a miller, etc.

Can you show that there are fewer mom-and-pop businesses in the country now than, say 20 years ago?

This is an interesting economic discussion, I’ve always beleived that Mom and Pop places were closing, but on the other hand, Small Businesses are still the economic driving force in the US.

 

[steveandersen]

Quite true, the Emperor Diocletian is directly responsible for how the dark ages turned out. If your father was a farmer, you were a farmer, if your father was a miller, you were a miller, etc.

This is an interesting economic discussion, I’ve always beleived that Mom and Pop places were closing, but on the other hand, Small Businesses are still the economic driving force in the US.

I’m a small businessman and if I’m the driving force of the economy I fear for the nation.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is an interesting economic discussion, I’ve always beleived that Mom and Pop places were closing, but on the other hand, Small Businesses are still the economic driving force in the US.

The majority of new starts fail within two years – and most of these new starts are of course small businesses. But small businesses are thriving in America and the failure rate is fairly steady over a very long time – we can’t say the rise of Wal-Mart or any other favorite ogre affects it.

Back in '03 and '04, when I was running for congress, I did some extensive research on a proposed automobile plant Arkansas was trying to attract. Something like that will generate about four jobs outside the plant for each job in the plant. Most of these jobs are in small parts maunfacturing, dry cleaners, auto repair, and so on.

If anything, the evidence is that big business is good for small businesses.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This is an interesting economic discussion, I’ve always beleived that Mom and Pop places were closing, but on the other hand, Small Businesses are still the economic driving force in the US.

This is just anecdotal. I suspect there are as many small businesses now as in the heyday of the “Mom and Pop” stores, but they’re different now, and require more. I recall, for instance, that when I was growing up, all gas stations around here were sole proprietorships, and provided mechanic service. It was entirely possible for a young man to work in one and ultimately buy it from the owner when the latter grew older, and as long as that young man had a modicum of drive and mechanical talent, he could make a middle-class living. Now, “gas stations” are all convenience stores owned by people who have a lot of capital and own lots of them. The ones who work there don’t make enough to keep a bird alive.

Back then, grocery stores were little neighborhood stores, very modest, and with limited inventory. But they did provide decent livings for the owners, as long as they could do figures and provided service. (They delivered) Almost none of the employees in the big chains make decent money.

Back then, restaurants were “Mom and Pop” proprietorships. They worked hard, but made a decent living. Motels were similar.

It’s just different now. It’s really tough for a person to be a small business person. Takes a lot more capital and a lot more know-how than it did back when I was a kid. There is no possibility whatever of competing with the pervasive giants that dominate “obvious” business choices on their own ground. You have to find some other way; some niche they’re not filling. It takes a lot more “smart” to do that, because the giants have people who work everyday to figure out how to fill all the niches.

Farming is the same. You can’t just produce commodities and hope to come out, like people used to, unless you have a staggeringly high level of capital. You might raise something different; something unique. You might even find some incredibly efficient way to produce ordinary commodities. But no matter what, you have to outhink the big guys, because they have the economies of scale and enormous capital resources.

I say all the above as a small businessman myself, and I do a bit of ranching on the side. My father was also a small businessman, though in a different line, and he did a bit of ranching on the side. It’s definitely possible to “make it” nowadays, but it’s much different now than it was back in my father’s day. Much, much more demanding in work, capital and ingenuity. In my opinion, very few of the people who had the small businesses when I was a kid could make it now, and virtually all of the children of those people either went up the education scale and ended up working for large concerns (including government), or went down the scale into the laboring class. Both are, in truth, not proprietors, but wage laborers.

 

[colliric]

I agree with Ridge runner and this has been my own experience as the son of a Small Business owner.

 

[colliric]

Slavery outlawed? Tell that to all the modern-day descendants of African-American slaves. Slavery and its near cousins such as serfdom or debt-slavery were very much alive and kicking. Abortion? May have been illegal, practiced very widely nonetheless. Possibly as widely as it is today, we’ll never know.

It’s true, it was outlawed.

As you say with the other Land Roman laws, Slavery was actually systematically outlawed by the Romans and the catholic church came in and had no intention of ever changing that law.

Serfdom and Debt-slavery may indeed have been alive and kicking, but the normal standard just plain ole “Slavery” was systematically outlawed from the time of Emperor Flavius Theodosius 1 to when the church took control of the empire after the barbarian invasions. It took much legislation to wittle away the rights of the master over his slave, one of the most important steps taken under Theodosius was to protect the slaves from being assaulted and to in the same legislation also offer explicit protection for Slaves when they flew to the Catholic Church for protection from their master(Theodosius was according to the catholic encyclopedia “A Just and mighty Catholic Emperor”)

 

[anthony022071]

The majority of new starts fail within two years – and most of these new starts are of course small businesses. But small businesses are thriving in America and the failure rate is fairly steady over a very long time – we can’t say the rise of Wal-Mart or any other favorite ogre affects it.

If anything, the evidence is that big business is good for small businesses.

Wal-Mart certainly does have a devastating effect on small businesses,all across the nation. Small businesses are not in a position to compete with Wal-Mart. Contrary to what Sam Walton said about how he would never set up a store where it was not wanted,Wal-Mart will force or sneak their way into a small town even when they are not wanted. They are predatory in their tactics. They manipulate zoning laws in small towns in order to get a plot of land to set up their “box”,using developers to cover for their entrance. They don’t create jobs so much as thay re-allocate the kinds of jobs that already exist in a small town. And after sucking the economic life-blood out of a small town,they will suddenly pick up and leave without warning,even after denying rumors that that store is about to close. So the town which became unduly dependent upon the Wal-Mart supers-store for jobs and affordable goods is left without either. When Wal-Mart comes to town it is like an economic tornado passing through.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Wal-Mart certainly does have a devastating effect on small businesses,all across the nation. Small businesses are not in a position to compete with Wal-Mart. Contrary to what Sam Walton said about how he would never set up a store where it was not wanted,Wal-Mart will force or sneak their way into a small town even when they are not wanted. They are predatory in their tactics. They manipulate zoning laws in small towns in order to get a plot of land to set up their “box”,using developers to cover for their entrance. They don’t create jobs so much as thay re-allocate the kinds of jobs that already exist in a small town. And after sucking the economic life-blood out of a small town,they will suddenly pick up and leave without warning,even after denying rumors that that store is about to close. So the town which became unduly dependent upon the Wal-Mart supers-store for jobs and affordable goods is left without either. When Wal-Mart comes to town it is like an economic tornado passing through.

It’s one thing to make accusations, another thing to prove them. Let’s see some hard evidence.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

There are many similarities with the height of Rome and today’s Secular Relativist society. Both were very materialistic and hedonistic. How much longer will it be before this age falls and we are in a new “Dark Ages”.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I can’t say that the “big box” stores wipe out all the small businesses. When Walmart came to my town, it wiped out some small businesses, and decreased the business of some others. No question about it.

Then along came Lowe’s, which located near Walmart, and all of a sudden there was an explosion of small enterprises in the vicinity of the “big boxes”. None of them directly compete with either Walmart or Lowe’s except for a spectacularly successful “Mom and Pop” pharmacy that prices like Walmart but gives far better service. Most of the businesses are service businesses of one kind or another. There is no doubt in my mind that there is some “net gain” of small business, if only because the increased traffic attracted service-oriented businesses.

Interestingly, then, those businesses that directly compete with Walmart and Lowe’s are now pretty much restricted to the “older” part of town, where the rent is low, and which, oddly, did much to revitalize that area. But my observations cause me to tentatively conclude that the “new” directly competing family businesses are either extremely well capitalized, depend partially on service or fill a “niche” that the big boxes don’t provide. As to the service, everybody predicted the demise of local florists when Walmart started selling flowers and plants. Instead, two new “Mom and Pop” florists popped up. One is extremely well capitalized and grows its own stuff. The other is also well capitalized and contracts with a local greenhouse grower. So their stuff is always fresher, better quality and more interesting than Walmart’s stuff.

“Ethnic” shops also seem to do well. Walmart’s “ethnic” lines are evidently not what the groups want, exactly.

I have a relative who is an optometrist in a large city. When the giants came along, he expanded his clinic, put in an outpatient laser surgery facility and actually hired opthalmologists to do eye surgeries in his facility. He now has 32 clinics and is killing the big organization competition, including the huge medical groups. He was just smarter than the rest, and took a risk.

So, and again this is just anecdotal, I would say that giantism in business does not necessarily drive out small businesses, though it can certainly flatten those in direct competition where price is the determining factor for shoppers. It might even enhance the prospects for some. But the small businesses have to have some advantage like service or some peculiarity of product, and have to be very clever and well financed. I don’t think a small business can slug it out toe-to-toe with the giants with the very same “commodity” product lines and level of service.

 

[vz71]

Often I hear people speaking ill of the large corporations.
Often there is very little other then anecdotal evidence to back the claims.

But there is one thing for certain…
With the larger corporation, there is a larger bureaucracy.
And unfortunately, all too often this bureaucracy is used as a cover for ill treatment of employees or customers often both.
No single person can be said to be responsible for the activities of the business, and this results in the lowest common denominator being handed out to all.

This generally does not happen in a mom & pop shop as there is a single person that is responsible. The idea that there is safety in numbers does not easily enter into business practices where the numbers are simply not there.

I believe this is what most people are arguing about when they make a blanket that the big corporations are bad.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Often I hear people speaking ill of the large corporations.
Often there is very little other then anecdotal evidence to back the claims.

But there is one thing for certain…
With the larger corporation, there is a larger bureaucracy.
And unfortunately, all too often this bureaucracy is used as a cover for ill treatment of employees or customers often both.

Where is the data to back this up?

No single person can be said to be responsible for the activities of the business, and this results in the lowest common denominator being handed out to all.

This generally does not happen in a mom & pop shop as there is a single person that is responsible. The idea that there is safety in numbers does not easily enter into business practices where the numbers are simply not there.

I believe this is what most people are arguing about when they make a blanket that the big corporations are bad.

But where is the data to back this up? I know of instances where small businesses have cheated people – used car salesmen are proverbial in this respect.

Does anyone have actual data showing that small businesses are less responsive or more responsible than small businesses?

 

[Contarini]

The thought occurred to me the other day that during the Dark Ages some or indeed most of the laws were very just and very very moral.

Abortion was outlawed
Homosexuality outlawed
Slavery outlawed
Pornography outlawed
and perhaps most famously of all there was severe restrictions on warfare…

What are you defining as the “Dark Ages”? And what law codes in particular are you talking about? (Contra vern humphrey, we do in fact have quite a few writings from the period between Boethius and Abelard, including a number of law codes.) Slavery was not outlawed, although the Church fought constantly to prevent Christians from being enslaved. By and large, slavery was transformed into serfdom, but there were always slaves coming in from outside–particularly the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe, which is where the word “slave” comes from.

Given your reference to the “severe restrictions on warfare,” you may be thinking of the Middle Ages as a whole and not the Dark Ages specifically. The “severe restrictions” (Peace of God, Truce of God, etc.) were not that successful. Throughout the Middle Ages warfare was endemic and it was commonly accepted that when a city was captured the soldiers had a right to kill and rape and plunder as much as they wanted to (and no, of course the Church did not sanction this). It was not pretty.

I am unsure as to whether abortion was in fact outlawed uniformly throughout either the Dark Ages or the whole Middle Ages, but I am happy to be better informed. I am also unsure if laws in the early Middle Ages (“Dark Ages”) took much notice of homosexuality. I’m pretty sure that capital punishments were meted out only in the later Middle Ages, but there may have been more lenient punishments early on. Nor am I certain, for that matter, that criminalizing homosexuality is a sign of a moral society–but that’s another debate.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

It’s true, it was outlawed.

As you say with the other Land Roman laws, Slavery was actually systematically outlawed by the Romans and the catholic church came in and had no intention of ever changing that law.

Serfdom and Debt-slavery may indeed have been alive and kicking, but the normal standard just plain ole “Slavery” was systematically outlawed from the time of Emperor Flavius Theodosius 1 to when the church took control of the empire after the barbarian invasions. It took much legislation to wittle away the rights of the master over his slave, one of the most important steps taken under Theodosius was to protect the slaves from being assaulted and to in the same legislation also offer explicit protection for Slaves when they flew to the Catholic Church for protection from their master(Theodosius was according to the catholic encyclopedia “A Just and mighty Catholic Emperor”)

You start by saying that slavery was outlawed, and then end by saying that there were some protections for slaves. Which is it? These are different. I think you are working with a very narrow definition of “slavery,” so that if there are any protections for slaves then it isn’t really slavery.

I think the most straightforward definition of slavery would be a system in which human beings can be bought and sold as individuals (in contrast to serfdom, in which humans come with the land) and in which the condition of being buyable and sellable has no expiration date (in contrast to indentured servitude, in which a person’s labor can be bought and sold but the person is not permanently classified as property). Defined in this way, slavery was certainly not outlawed during the Middle Ages, though by and large it did not flourish except on the frontiers of Christendom (due to the Church’s strictures on enslaving Christians and to the widespread practice of freeing slaves once they had been Christianized and assimilated).

Edwin

 

[vern_humphrey]

What are you defining as the “Dark Ages”? And what law codes in particular are you talking about? (Contra vern humphrey, we do in fact have quite a few writings from the period between Boethius and Abelard, including a number of law codes.)

I didn’t say we don’t – I said Toynbee defined the Dark Ages as between Boethus and Abelard. His apparent standard was the quality of the written documents, and he chose philosophy as the field.

The Dark Ages are where we have few on no written records. They generally follow the collapse of Roman auhority in the West, and you can make a case for the Dark Ages lasting for different periods in different countries. In England, for example, the last ancient writer that comes to my mind is the Chronicler Gildas, and the first written documents after him are Anglo-Saxon documents written by Irish monks a few hundred years later.

 

[vz71]

Where is the data to back this up?

But where is the data to back this up? I know of instances where small businesses have cheated people – used car salesmen are proverbial in this respect.

Does anyone have actual data showing that small businesses are less responsive or more responsible than small businesses?

I listed only one specific fact, increased size of a corporation yields an increased bureaucracy.

Do you really need some kind of scientific study to show this?

If you do, and are awaiting this, sorry but this is not going to be forthcoming. I care not to prove the obvious.

If a ball is dropped, it falls. I care not for the scientific consensus backing it with data.