The dead...

[deb1]

You list 8 Scriptures and ask if I consider Scripture. My God, do you read what I post? I post more Scripture on average than anyone on this board. Geeeeessshhhhh!

!!!"

Quantity of scripture has nothing to do with a proper understanding of scripture. It does not matter how many verses that you post, what matters is your interpretation of those verses.

 

[JoeyWarren]

How come all of your death Scriptures come from the Old Testament?

Exactly! I have seen this over and over again with SDAs! He claims not to be one, but…

 

[deb1]

There are some groups of Protestants who are not SDA who believe that they sleep until the resurrection. So, it is possible that M Oliver isn’t a SDA member.

 

[JoeyWarren]

There are some groups of Protestants who are not SDA who believe that they sleep until the resurrection. So, it is possible that M Oliver isn’t a SDA member.

Point duly noted.

 

[NotWorthy]

First of all, M_Oliver, welcome back!!! We missed you, man!

I think Scott Hahn points out a fact that you left out. God tells Adam if you eat, you shall die the death. The Serpent simply says, “you will not die”. There’s a difference in the two deaths being mentioned. God, talks of a spiritual death, a loss of Saving Grace. The serpent speaks of a temporal death.

God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. “The moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die,” he warns (see Genesis 2:17).
In the Hebrew there is a “double death” threat here - literally “You shall die die” or “die the death.” Why the repetition of the word “die” Can you be more dead than dead?
The serpent directly contradicts God. He tells Adam and Eve: “You certainly will not die” (see Genesis 3:14). He says, too that they will be like “gods who know what is good and bad” (see Genesis 3:5).
And it’s true that when they eat the fruit, they don’t keel over and die. Instead, their eyes are opened just like the serpent said they would be (see Genesis 3:7). Even God has to admit, “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil” (see Genesis 3:22).
Is the serpent right? Was God lying to the two? It certainly looks that way on the surface.
But of course it isn’t that way.
Adam and Eve do die the moment they eat the fruit - spiritually. The truth in Satan’s lie was this: Adam and Eve would not die a *physical *death once they ate the fruit. Adam and Eve lost something greater than natural life when they sinned; they lost supernatural life, the life of grace in their souls.
Seduced into trying to be like God without God, they died the death. Yes, they chose the fruit freely, like God they exercised free will. But their freedom only led them into slavery. Their eyes were indeed opened, and they discovered their nakedness and were ashamed.
We know that Satan has “the power of death” (see Hebrews 2:14-15). Adam and Eve should have listened to God, whose warning seems to echo in these words of Jesus: “And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna” (see Matthew 10:28).

This is one of the reasons its important to look back and understand the original languages rather than some translations that lose the original meaning.

 

[M_Oliver]

First of all, M_Oliver, welcome back!!! We missed you, man!

I think Scott Hahn points out a fact that you left out. God tells Adam if you eat, you shall die the death. The Serpent simply says, “you will not die”. There’s a difference in the two deaths being mentioned. God, talks of a spiritual death, a loss of Saving Grace. The serpent speaks of a temporal death.

This is one of the reasons its important to look back and understand the original languages rather than some translations that lose the original meaning.

Thanks for the welcome back. Good to see you too. You know better than that, telling me I need to go back and look at the original languages. That is how I’ve been suspended from this synagogue on more than one occasion!

It is not Genesis 2:17 and 3:14. It is Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:4. And guess what, Satan says H4191 TWICE TOO. If your friend saw it in 2:17 he should have seen the same thing in Genesis 3:4. It is in the same document.

I really do hope you guys want to go to this level with me. It will prove wrong everything you were ever taught. It truly will open your eyes to the most marvelous plan for mankind that you could ever imagine.

God bless.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Oliver,

Nah!!! When you don’t understand the Incarnation or the work of Jesus Christ between His death and resurrection it is clear that you do have much to learn. But we welcome your contributions anyway.

CDL

 

[M_Oliver]

Oliver,

Nah!!! When you don’t understand the Incarnation or the work of Jesus Christ between His death and resurrection it is clear that you do have much to learn. But we welcome your contributions anyway.

CDL

You have NO CLUE as to the depth of my understanding. None whatsoever .

 

[NotWorthy]

I really do hope you guys want to go to this level with me. It will prove wrong everything you were ever taught. It truly will open your eyes to the most marvelous plan for mankind that you could ever imagine.

God bless.

M, why do I imagine a mother ship circling the planet when you say this?

 

[hosemonkey]

Is your name M_Oliver, or David Koresh?

 

[Sixtus]

My dear M Oliver, I will go to that level with you.

It seems to me that you have confused the Old Testament teaching [which you mainly quote] where ‘the good’ were awaiting the Coming of Christ, who upon His descent among the dead, opened their graves and they were seen walking about among men. ‘There was an earthquake the rocks split and the graves opened and many of God’s saints were raised from sleep and coming out of therr graves after His resurriction they entered the Holy City where many saw them’ Matt27:52-54.

If you have any doubts, see my thread concerning Purgatorywhy protestants do not accept the concept when it is taught by St Paul, St Peter, St Mark, St Timothy, St Clement, St Linus and by the Lord Himself.

In particular Paul speaks at some length about a man not being worthy of entering Heaven upon His death, atoning for his sins after death of the body but before he enters Heaven.

Jesus Himself states that to God even those who have died are alive to Him. He is not God of the dead but God of the living Matt 22:33.

 

[Sixtus]

One final comment about quoting the Bible is that The Church warns about taking individual texts and quoting them in isolation. To understand their full meaning, they need be read in the context of the rest of the passage.

Of course, you will agree that Mother Church is right in all that she teaches. Everything she teaches is ground in Scripture.

If you are saying that you do not agree, then please tell me why you accept 100% her codification [the Bible] but then paradoxically reject her interpretation. If you cannot accept her interpretation then doesn’t that cast reasonable doubt over her codification, that which you call the Bible

Neither can you use the Scriptures against her whose Scriptures they are

May the peace of Christ come upon you and remain with you now and for ever

 

[confuzed]

Those who twist Scripture have been given a name: Protestant.

.

So Katholicos, let me guess - you’re not much interested in reconciling with our Protestant Brothers and Sisiters?

They are our neighbors, after all - you know, the ones we’re supposed to love as ourselves? And surely our love would mean more to them than your snide scorn.

Might even mean something to Jesus.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The dead.

How is it that a majority of professing Christians have become so confused as to what happens when a human is dead in spite of the plethora of Scriptures that answer the question quite simply?
…
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

Christ spoke these words in case you have forgotten. So now we are faced with a choice. Do we believe God that we now die or do we believe satan that we don’t die? I’ll go with God.

Us too ​

When we go with God on this subject Scriptures tell us what it is like to die, be dead.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:6)

These two Scriptures expose so many lies. Can a soul be in Heaven or hell or some state in between and know nothing? Can a father who dies in a tragic accident be looking over his young daughter, keeping her from harms way?

Not according to God’s word. Even Job knew one must wait to be renewed {resurrected} before you were aware of anything again…

If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come. (Job 14:14)

Been there, been given a taste of that - am expecting remainder in due course: see Acts 3 (for instance)​

And Solomon…

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol{the grave}, to which you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

No longer in force - to quote this from the OT is like using a book from 1750 to prove the non-existence of the USA in 2000. Things have changed - Jesus Christ has gone & changed them, by dying, & rising again.​

The passage in Ecclesiastes does not take details such as the Resurrection into account. Not unreasonably, seeing that the Resurrection is later than the book. ##

And God again…

By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:19)

So why? Why all the fantasies of men instead of the Scriptural truth?

MONEY?

No - Jesus Christ ​

As Scripture itself says - in the New Testament, which contains a great deal that relativises, corrects & re-interprets the Old (which itself contains corrections of its past ideas):

• 2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began;2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

• if you want to die, you’re about 2000 years too late
  Christians live by the Life Who is Christ, & that life is without death: He is not mortal, or a vampire, or a zombie, or a corpse. Which mean that we who are in Him, who are His limbs (that is what a “member” is), are also alive. ##

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I don’t know about the rest of you but I keep wondering when MOliver is going to move to this extraordinarily deep level he keeps talking about.

CDL

 

[JoeyWarren]

You have NO CLUE as to the depth of my understanding. None whatsoever .

Well, why don’t you enlighten us with the depth of your understanding?

 

[Sixtus]

I went to the link attached to his post. It was sick very very sick.

It states that God is the creator of evil. It blames God for the mess the world is in. Admittedly it adds that ‘God intends to clear up His mess’ but it still contends that God is to blame for all the ills [global warming, war, poverty, injustice, abuse, sickness, pain, depths of human misery etc etc]. That is a very sad, sick philosophy.

His link goes on to say that ‘man’ does not have freewill. The fall of Adam, his disobedience deliberately contrived by God for His own divine purposes. This view is akin to what pschologists call behaviourism where we are not free thinking individuals but shaped by the consequences of our environments.

If we do not have freewill, we are not free to chose to love or not to love God. Therefore, we are not responsible for our sins. All evil being contrived and created by God. If that is so, If we were not culpablethen why did the Saviour need to die? Did He die to save God, since God is seen as the origin of all evil!

Not surprisingly there is reference in there to ‘the whore of Babylon’, not content to insult God, the Trinity, goes on to insult those countless millions of martyr’s, sainst and holy men and women and the billions who have come to believe and follow Christ, in the last 2000 years.

The link to me appears to be all doom and gloom. In fact, after reading it, my sense of inner peace was seriously disturbed. I found bits of it ‘sinister’. I saw a parallel between the deceit of the devil in the garden of Eden and the text. This realy disturbed me.

My inner peace restored by Gottle of Geer, I could feel the healing power of the Holy Spirit fusing through Gottle of Geer’s text. God is with you Gottle of Geer. My advice to others, do not open the link unless you are very strong in spirit.

Pax Christi

 

[hosemonkey]

I went to the link attached to his post. It was sick very very sick.

It states that God is the creator of evil. It blames God for the mess the world is in. Admittedly it adds that ‘God intends to clear up His mess’ but it still contends that God is to blame for all the ills [global warming, war, poverty, injustice, abuse, sickness, pain, depths of human misery etc etc]. That is a very sad, sick philosophy.

His link goes on to say that ‘man’ does not have freewill. The fall of Adam, his disobedience deliberately contrived by God for His own divine purposes. This view is akin to what pschologists call behaviourism where we are not free thinking individuals but shaped by the consequences of our environments.

If we do not have freewill, we are not free to chose to love or not to love God. Therefore, we are not responsible for our sins. All evil being contrived and created by God. If that is so, If we were not culpablethen why did the Saviour need to die? Did He die to save God, since God is seen as the origin of all evil!

Not surprisingly there is reference in there to ‘the whore of Babylon’, not content to insult God, the Trinity, goes on to insult those countless millions of martyr’s, sainst and holy men and women and the billions who have come to believe and follow Christ, in the last 2000 years.

The link to me appears to be all doom and gloom. In fact, after reading it, my sense of inner peace was seriously disturbed. I found bits of it ‘sinister’. I saw a parallel between the deceit of the devil in the garden of Eden and the text. This realy disturbed me.

My inner peace restored by Gottle of Geer, I could feel the healing power of the Holy Spirit fusing through Gottle of Geer’s text. God is with you Gottle of Geer. My advice to others, do not open the link unless you are very strong in spirit.

Pax Christi

Very true. I think that he is just another nutjob with internet access. Ignore him.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I went to the link attached to his post. It was sick very very sick.

It states that God is the creator of evil. It blames God for the mess the world is in. Admittedly it adds that ‘God intends to clear up His mess’ but it still contends that God is to blame for all the ills [global warming, war, poverty, injustice, abuse, sickness, pain, depths of human misery etc etc]. That is a very sad, sick philosophy.

His link goes on to say that ‘man’ does not have freewill. The fall of Adam, his disobedience deliberately contrived by God for His own divine purposes. This view is akin to what pschologists call behaviourism where we are not free thinking individuals but shaped by the consequences of our environments.

If we do not have freewill, we are not free to chose to love or not to love God. Therefore, we are not responsible for our sins. All evil being contrived and created by God. If that is so, If we were not culpablethen why did the Saviour need to die? Did He die to save God, since God is seen as the origin of all evil!

Not surprisingly there is reference in there to ‘the whore of Babylon’, not content to insult God, the Trinity, goes on to insult those countless millions of martyr’s, sainst and holy men and women and the billions who have come to believe and follow Christ, in the last 2000 years.

The link to me appears to be all doom and gloom. In fact, after reading it, my sense of inner peace was seriously disturbed. I found bits of it ‘sinister’. I saw a parallel between the deceit of the devil in the garden of Eden and the text. This realy disturbed me.

My inner peace restored by Gottle of Geer, I could feel the healing power of the Holy Spirit fusing through Gottle of Geer’s text. God is with you Gottle of Geer. My advice to others, do not open the link unless you are very strong in spirit.

Pax Christi

If that is true, then it seems to me that M_Oliver may be actually trying to lead us to a divinity that sound very much like the blind, idiot god of the gnostic heretics.

I’m not really interested in his god.

Jesus is God.

 

[M_Oliver]

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Let’s assume 2 Titus 1:10 really means we DON’T die. Tell me what these mean…

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Corinthians 15:12)

**But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. ** (1 Corinthians 15:13)

And if Christ has not been raised {from the dead}, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:14)

We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ {from the DEAD}, whom he did not raise {from the dead} if it is true that the dead are not raised. (1 Corinthians 15:15)

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. (1 Corinthians 15:16)