The Death of Alexander VI is scaring me!

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Some of the Renaissance popes were corrupt. Its been said, with a little humor, that the Church’s ability to survive them is proof of its divine support and guidance.

But dang, they did sponsor some pretty impressive art! 😉
Yes, Michaelangelo? At least some good was accomplished during the era.
 
Read my last post - I think it’s vanity and presumption to assume that those ***you ***don’t approve of are equally abhorrent to God, and therefore that anything that goes wrong with them is His chastisement on them.

Do you thoroughly deserve every single good or bad thing that happens to you? Why then must you assume that other people do?
I dont want to interject…but I read all these posts and would like to give my opinion.

I agree with you for the most part Lily…but it sounds awfully like your justifying Alezander’s lifestyle?

God does punish sins.

A trad Catholic teaching (something I hope hasnt been dumped) is that there are several sins that cry out for vengeance.

Oppresion of the poor, adultery, murder. etc. etc.

These things characterized Alexander’s life.

Rather than focusing on what Roma says…it would be better to just stick to the fact that God would not let a Pope be dishonored in death unless it was for a higher purpose.

Its like he weeded out the garden…and like Sola Roma said…the fruits of todays Pope’s are a great testimony to it.

I would not be bothered, in fact I would be happy if Alexander was in Heaven, but I am equally content with anything else.

Alexander could even be in Purgatory as opposed to Hell…that does not negate God’s right to make an example of his papacy or his inatimate body.

What a better way to do it than striking his dead body with a scary sign? It could have warned future Popes.

It seems that everything Alexander did was for the progress of himself…its only fitting that his last possession (his body) be removed from St. Peters.

It decayed, and was moved to some Church (I forgot which)

Im glad his presence has been removed from so many Saints and Holy Popes resting in that beautiful crypt.
 
Some of the Renaissance popes were corrupt. Its been said, with a little humor, that the Church’s ability to survive them is proof of its divine support and guidance.

But dang, they did sponsor some pretty impressive art! 😉
Amen and Amen. lol
 
I dont want to interject…but I read all these posts and would like to give my opinion.

I agree with you for the most part Lily…but it sounds awfully like your justifying Alezander’s lifestyle?

God does punish sins.

A trad Catholic teaching (something I hope hasnt been dumped) is that there are several sins that cry out for vengeance.

Oppresion of the poor, adultery, murder. etc. etc.

These things characterized Alexander’s life.

Rather than focusing on what Roma says…it would be better to just stick to the fact that God would not let a Pope be dishonored in death unless it was for a higher purpose.

Its like he weeded out the garden…and like Sola Roma said…the fruits of todays Pope’s are a great testimony to it.

I would not be bothered, in fact I would be happy if Alexander was in Heaven, but I am equally content with anything else.

Alexander could even be in Purgatory as opposed to Hell…that does not negate God’s right to make an example of his papacy or his inatimate body.

What a better way to do it than striking his dead body with a scary sign? It could have warned future Popes.

It seems that everything Alexander did was for the progress of himself…its only fitting that his last possession (his body) be removed from St. Peters.

It decayed, and was moved to some Church (I forgot which)

Im glad his presence has been removed from so many Saints and Holy Popes resting in that beautiful crypt.
Ouch!
 
This is turning out to be a wonderful thread. I would have never thought that God would turn evil into good on this very forum.
🙂
 
This is turning out to be a wonderful thread. I would have never thought that God would turn evil into good on this very forum.
🙂
Well maybe you and Sola can go find Alexander’s body and use it as fertilizer now.

That would really be turning evil into good 😉

Only joking LilyM… :cool:
 
I dont want to interject…but I read all these posts and would like to give my opinion.

I agree with you for the most part Lily…but it sounds awfully like your justifying Alezander’s lifestyle?

God does punish sins.

A trad Catholic teaching (something I hope hasnt been dumped) is that there are several sins that cry out for vengeance.

Oppresion of the poor, adultery, murder. etc. etc.

These things characterized Alexander’s life.

Rather than focusing on what Roma says…it would be better to just stick to the fact that God would not let a Pope be dishonored in death unless it was for a higher purpose.
Oh puhlease. Vengeance yes, but vengeance where it truly hurts and where its truly earned - in the spiritual and eternal realm, not the physical and eternal.

Alexander is dead - he suffered only a short time during his illness, and suffered nothing by what happened to his body after death.

If he died an unrepentant sinner then his soul is suffering in hell and his body will join it there after the last day. What more punishment or vengeance should you or God himself require for his misdeeds?

I’m not justifying his lifestyle in the slightest, I’m saying there are others who have sinned every bit as grievously and publicly and suffered not a whit for it physically, along with those who sinned not and suffered as horribly. Again it’s vanity and presumption (presuming to know the mind of God) to say this or that person’s death was a judgement or a chastisement on them.

Let me leave you with Luke 13:4-5 to ponder on:

“…Those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

The moral is not to draw inferences about anyone from the manner of their death, Pope or no, sinner or no! Straight from Our Lord himself.
 
Alexander VI’s attending physicians said he died of malaria, and most responsible historians agree. He and some others dined in the open air at the house of a cardinal on the fifth of August, 1503 and stayed outside until around midnight because it was too hot to go indoors. Some of the others who dined with the Pope also contracted malaria, though none of the others died. He seemed to recover after a few days, being able to arise, see to diplomatic matters and play cards. His doctors bled him; something believed to be good at the time, and probably did so to the extent that it weakened him. That, too, was pretty common in those days. Hundreds of people (many, no doubt innocent of any serious wrongdoing) died of malaria in Rome that summer. Rome has always been subject to that disease due to the proximity of the Pontine marshes, and some even believe malaria was responsible for the final decline of the Roman Empire.

Malaria can be a very mean disease, and it, like any destructive infection, can cause accelerated decomposition of the body of one who dies from it, because of tissue damage. When one considers that Alexander VI died in August, a very hot, steamy month in Rome, it would not be at all surprising if his body decomposed rapidly. Summer decomposition of any creature as large as a man is a dreadful sight every time, and happens very quickly. Still, those reports are not necessarily worthy of belief either, being based on the reports of two men. His body lay in state for a short while; something that seems unlikely if he was as ghastly as some claim.

Many, perhaps most, of the stories about Alexander VI are bogus, including many written in his own time. He was a powerful man, a Spaniard much envied by Italian rivals. The Renaissance was much given to slanderous writings, overstatement and rash judgments. Protestant writers, of course, have invented a great number of stories, vying with one another to see who could write the worse slanders. He did have two illigitimate children, but they were born before he was even a priest. He didn’t seem a bit ashamed of them; openly admitted his parentage of them and liked having them around him; something many irresponsible parents in our own time might do well to emulate. He was a red-blooded man; no question about that, but responsible historians consider him guilty only of excessive promotion of the fortunes of his children; a not unusual thing for a father to do, though blameworthy in a Pope, and of acting in some ways more like a secular ruler than a Pope.

The environs of Rome were quite dangerous when he became Pope, and the city was given to internal warfare something like the private militia warfare going on in Baghdad today. He suppressed that, and was much hated for it by the warring factions and their partisans; the same way American troops are hated by the warring factions in Baghdad for trying to impose peace. He brought peace and unprecedented prosperity to the Papal States. The Venetian ambassador, who observed him in his last years, described him as “cheerful and active, apparently quite clear of conscience…he seems to grow younger every day…” It is instructive that the main warring families, the Orsini and the Colonna entered the city with armed troops four days after his death, over the impotent protests of the College of Cardinals, and resumed their street fighting.

He can rightly be accused of being too worldly, though modern historians mightily doubt the stories of debauchery told about him. He enjoyed life to a degree considered by many to be too robust for a cleric. Calvinists, it has been said, cannot stand the thought that someone, somewhere might be having a good time, and it would not be fair to judge Alexander VI by the puritanical standards of those who wrote about him later. He did not hesitate to financially and diplomatically support his warlike son in pacifying papal territories. Though this would be considered totally justified in a secular ruler, it seems to us today to be unseemly for a Pope.

I am not trying to make a saint of him. He was a man of his time, with all the good and bad that entailed. But he was certainly not the worst of them. He went to confession shortly before his death. I think it would be an exceedingly rash judgment to suppose that God hated him or punished him either in the manner of his death or what came after it.
 
I still think that Alexander’s death is a warning to all of us who continue to sin joyfully…

To the rich who share nothing…
To those who boast in the luxury…
To those who live adulterously…

We should all take the Lord’s admonishment to heart. I know I will, and I will try harder to repent. But, we must remember the story the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. We mustn’t thank God for not being like Alexander, we must thank God that he continues to keep us alive and ever vigilant. Let Alexander’s death be an admonishment.

Let us pray that Alexander makes it to heaven.
 
Alexander VI’s attending physicians said he died of malaria, and most responsible historians agree. He and some others dined in the open air at the house of a cardinal on the fifth of August, 1503 and stayed outside until around midnight because it was too hot to go indoors. Some of the others who dined with the Pope also contracted malaria, though none of the others died. He seemed to recover after a few days, being able to arise, see to diplomatic matters and play cards. His doctors bled him; something believed to be good at the time, and probably did so to the extent that it weakened him. That, too, was pretty common in those days. Hundreds of people (many, no doubt innocent of any serious wrongdoing) died of malaria in Rome that summer. Rome has always been subject to that disease due to the proximity of the Pontine marshes, and some even believe malaria was responsible for the final decline of the Roman Empire.

Malaria can be a very mean disease, and it, like any destructive infection, can cause accelerated decomposition of the body of one who dies from it, because of tissue damage. When one considers that Alexander VI died in August, a very hot, steamy month in Rome, it would not be at all surprising if his body decomposed rapidly. Summer decomposition of any creature as large as a man is a dreadful sight every time, and happens very quickly. Still, those reports are not necessarily worthy of belief either, being based on the reports of two men. His body lay in state for a short while; something that seems unlikely if he was as ghastly as some claim.

Many, perhaps most, of the stories about Alexander VI are bogus, including many written in his own time. He was a powerful man, a Spaniard much envied by Italian rivals. The Renaissance was much given to slanderous writings, overstatement and rash judgments. Protestant writers, of course, have invented a great number of stories, vying with one another to see who could write the worse slanders. He did have two illigitimate children, but they were born before he was even a priest. He didn’t seem a bit ashamed of them; openly admitted his parentage of them and liked having them around him; something many irresponsible parents in our own time might do well to emulate. He was a red-blooded man; no question about that, but responsible historians consider him guilty only of excessive promotion of the fortunes of his children; a not unusual thing for a father to do, though blameworthy in a Pope, and of acting in some ways more like a secular ruler than a Pope.

The environs of Rome were quite dangerous when he became Pope, and the city was given to internal warfare something like the private militia warfare going on in Baghdad today. He suppressed that, and was much hated for it by the warring factions and their partisans; the same way American troops are hated by the warring factions in Baghdad for trying to impose peace. He brought peace and unprecedented prosperity to the Papal States. The Venetian ambassador, who observed him in his last years, described him as “cheerful and active, apparently quite clear of conscience…he seems to grow younger every day…” It is instructive that the main warring families, the Orsini and the Colonna entered the city with armed troops four days after his death, over the impotent protests of the College of Cardinals, and resumed their street fighting.

He can rightly be accused of being too worldly, though modern historians mightily doubt the stories of debauchery told about him. He enjoyed life to a degree considered by many to be too robust for a cleric. Calvinists, it has been said, cannot stand the thought that someone, somewhere might be having a good time, and it would not be fair to judge Alexander VI by the puritanical standards of those who wrote about him later. He did not hesitate to financially and diplomatically support his warlike son in pacifying papal territories. Though this would be considered totally justified in a secular ruler, it seems to us today to be unseemly for a Pope.

I am not trying to make a saint of him. He was a man of his time, with all the good and bad that entailed. But he was certainly not the worst of them. He went to confession shortly before his death. I think it would be an exceedingly rash judgment to suppose that God hated him or punished him either in the manner of his death or what came after it.
Yes, but didn’t he have mistresses and children? Wasn’t the Pope supposed to be celibate? Well I don’t think that we should put to much blame on him. I am just glad however, that the recent Popes have been goodhearted and faithful to God.
 
Yes, but didn’t he have mistresses and children? Wasn’t the Pope supposed to be celibate?
Like St. Augustine, he had mistresses BEFORE he became a priest. There is no credible evidence that he did after he was ordained. He did, as Pope, particularly enjoy the company of one Giulia Farnese, and his enemies delighted in speculating about that, but there is no evidence that he had any sexual liason with her, and her husband, who was, as far as anyone knows, there whenever she was in the Papal palace, never made any objection or tried to keep her away from him. Others in a position to know, who might have been expected to object if something unseemly was going on, did not. Historians no longer believe stories of his having mistresses while he was Pope. He did, however, greatly enjoy having young people around him; both men and women. He did put on parties and feasts in the palace, and dancing went on at those parties. But there is no credible evidence that he did anything but watch and engage in conversation with the participants. He can be blamed for giving his enemies something to invent stories about, and for engaging in such merriment as Pope. But the consensus of historians is that that is about as far as it went.

His two children were born BEFORE he became a priest. They were already adults when he became Pope. Certainly, like St. Augustine, he should have been celibate even as a young layman. But like St. Augustine, he wasn’t. There is no evidence that he had any other children, and it is very unlikely that he did. He was extremely open about, and devoted to those two, and given his very strong paternal instincts and devotion, it is reasonable to believe he would have been the same with any others if he had them.
 
Like St. Augustine, he had mistresses BEFORE he became a priest. There is no credible evidence that he did after he was ordained. He did, as Pope, particularly enjoy the company of one Giulia Farnese, and his enemies delighted in speculating about that, but there is no evidence that he had any sexual liason with her, and her husband, who was, as far as anyone knows, there whenever she was in the Papal palace, never made any objection or tried to keep her away from him. Others in a position to know, who might have been expected to object if something unseemly was going on, did not. Historians no longer believe stories of his having mistresses while he was Pope. He did, however, greatly enjoy having young people around him; both men and women. He did put on parties and feasts in the palace, and dancing went on at those parties. But there is no credible evidence that he did anything but watch and engage in conversation with the participants. He can be blamed for giving his enemies something to invent stories about, and for engaging in such merriment as Pope. But the consensus of historians is that that is about as far as it went.

His two children were born BEFORE he became a priest. They were already adults when he became Pope. Certainly, like St. Augustine, he should have been celibate even as a young layman. But like St. Augustine, he wasn’t. There is no evidence that he had any other children, and it is very unlikely that he did. He was extremely open about, and devoted to those two, and given his very strong paternal instincts and devotion, it is reasonable to believe he would have been the same with any others if he had them.
Sorry, but he didn’t just have two. He had at least four with Vanozza Cattanei alone - all after his ordination. They being Cesare, Juan, Lucrezia and Jofre. These were all acknowledged by Alexander and treated PRECISELY in the same manner as the elder two children. There is no reason to believe that they are other than his own natural children.

Lucrezia’s wedding was the one held in the Vatican for example, and he made Cesare a Cardinal, later releasing him from his vows though. And he married him and the other three off to various sons and daughters of neighbouring royal and noble houses to cement alliances - several times over in poor Lucrezia’s case - just as he did with the elder children. Lucrezia and Jofre were born after he became Cardinal, but before he became Pope, so definitely after his ordination.
 
Sorry, but he didn’t just have two. He had at least four with Vanozza Cattanei alone - all after his ordination. They being Cesare, Juan, Lucrezia and Jofre. These were all acknowledged by Alexander and treated PRECISELY in the same manner as the elder two children. There is no reason to believe that they are other than his own natural children.

Lucrezia’s wedding was the one held in the Vatican for example, and he made Cesare a Cardinal, later releasing him from his vows though. And he married him and the other three off to various sons and daughters of neighbouring royal and noble houses to cement alliances - several times over in poor Lucrezia’s case - just as he did with the elder children. Lucrezia and Jofre were born after he became Cardinal, but before he became Pope, so definitely after his ordination.
Giovanni and Giofre were listed as Vanozza’s children along with Cesare and Lucrezia on her tombstone. It has been speculated that Giovanni and Giofre were also Alexander’s, and he certainly looked after their welfare, though they did not live with him as did Cesare and Lucrezia. It was believed that he had two others; Girolama and Pedro. But their mothers are not known, and their parentage may be doubted. In any event, no one even claims Alexander was a priest then. Since Alexander was never married to Vanozza, and since Vanozza was married to another at the time, it cannot be certain that Giovanni and Giofre were Alexander’s. There is no respectable doubt that Lucrezia and Cesare were his, and certainly, he believed it. But it is not the case that any of the other children said to be his were treated in PRECISELY the same way in which he treated Cesare and Lucrezia.

Alexander was a cardinal before he was a priest, which was possible at that time since one could then be a cardinal without ever becoming a priest. It is said that he was ordained in 1468 which, if true, would indeed put the believed birthdates of Lucrezia (1480) and Cesare (1476) after his ordination. It is also believed that he was ordained as a consequence of his election to the Papacy. Having already been a cardinal for ten years in 1468, it seems he would have become a priest for no particular reason if he was, indeed, ordained in that year. If, indeed, he had been a priest when “X” number of children were born, there was no mention of it in the conclave at which he was elected; and it was a contested conclave until the very end.

He was elected Pope in 1492. Vanozza was, at the time, married. She was widowed twice and married three times before her death.

“Poor” Lucrezia was not “married off several times”. She was initially married to Giovanni. Sforza. She lived in the household of her “husband” for a few months then left. The marriage was never consummated and was annulled on the grounds of the husband’s impotence; something historians believe to be true. Sforza admitted the marriage had never been consummated, and ultimately pleaded “no contest” to the fact of impotence. He even returned the dowry. Only one child was born of any marriage he ever had later, and the paternity of that child is doubted. She was then married to Alfonso of Bisceglie, who died. She then married Alfonso of Ferrara. It was very common at that time; the rule, actually among the upper classes, for marriages to be arranged by the parents of both the bride and the groom. Marriages were, indeed, political in their nature. That may seem strange to us now, who believe all marriages are based on love, until we notice that the children of the rich and famous always seem to marry the children of the rich and famous. The above are the sum and total of the marriages arranged for Lucrezia by Alexander. It does appear Lucrezia, like many of her time, was happy in her second and third marriages.
 
Cesare was, indeed, made a cardinal. He was never ordained, nor, again, was he required to be ordained in order to be a cardinal. He was released from that state at his request so he could seek a secular title.

I thought I took care to say that I do not claim Alexander VI was a saint. He was a man of his times, and certainly not the worst of them. One may go on and on about a person being appointed a cardinal as a career move, and one may be grateful that cardinalates are no longer considered political/economic placements for those with the power to obtain them. But they very commonly were at the time, and Alexander’s or Cesare’s obtaining red hats without, at the time, desiring to become spiritual leaders or even priests, was not considered a corrupt thing to do. Arranging advantageous marriages for one’s children was considered a parental duty, not an imposition or an evidence of vice. Even if Alexander fathered “X” number of children as a priest, which can be doubted, he would not have been unusual in Southern Europe, at least, at the time, though it would have been considered sinful then, as now. But there is no evidence considered respectable by historians, that he had mistresses or fathered children as Pope; that he was debauched or was anything worse than an excessively worldly man by our modern standards. Most historians conclude that he has been vilified unjustly and that, as Pope at least, he really was a believing Christian and was relatively virtuous in his personal life.
 
So, we really don’t know anything about this guy, do we?

I’m fascinated by his death though. Then again, I’m reading Malachi Martin before I go to sleep. Nothing bothers me. 😉
 
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