The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[francisca]

If men expect women to be innocent, they themselves must be innocent.

 

[Nate13]

We are not talking of specific incidences, nor even of modesty on this.

A general statement made by another member here was that women have a higher responsibility to be virtuous people than men do. I do not agree with that. I believe they have equal responsibility.

A general statement which I already corrected myself and made more specific within a page of writing what was quoted:

“that men and women who have more influence over the opposite sex or just other people in general, have more responsibility to be virtuous people.”

I truly and deeply apologize for the generalized, possibly sexist statement where I called out women in particular. It was insensitive, and not as accurate as it could have been. I corrected it a long time ago though and lets move on.

 

[passer_by]

We are not talking of specific incidences, nor even of modesty on this.

A general statement made by another member here was that women have a higher responsibility to be virtuous people than men do. I do not agree with that.

Perhaps it is a matter of perception here.

I think what needs to be said is that Women have more to watch-out for to maintain modesty, purity, chastity etc.

You have to remember that Modesty, Chastity are simply not things that disrupt the individuals life if violated. It effects the neighbor.

So since you seem to agree on the fact that at least on modesty, the women have more to watch-out for, then it logically follows that women have to take more care to become virtuous.

But just like you, if the statement

that women have a higher responsibility to be virtuous people than men do

implies ‘women are better people than men if leading good lives in terms of degree of virtuousness’ I disagree. Both are called to be virtuous according to their gender. It is just more things that one needs to watch-out for if one is a woman. But that does not mean that women if leading good lives are greater than men in terms of virtue or anything.

 

[Debora123]

Two things:

1.) God judges us according to what we know.

2.) “Much will be required of the person entrusted with much,
and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.” Luke 12:4

The issue of ignorance has already been addressed, and is not what was originally meant and what I originally disagreed with. Of course, you would know if you had read the whole thread.

Please don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Please see above for another good example.

I’ve noticed you say that to people who simply don’t agree with you.

The only person I’ve said that to here is YOU. Please don’t accuse me of things I have not done.

So, try to see our side as we try to see yours.

I am, that is why I asked you all those questions.

Do you think I’m going to say she should be treated like the scum of the earth? Of course she should be treated respectfully regardless of what she’s wearing, saying, or doing. HOWEVER, if she goes out of her way to dress immodestly for a certain type of attention, or is irresponsible in her clothing choices, I’m saying she herself will be held accountable.

Good. I agree, it didn’t seem like that’s what you meant though, and that’s why 2 other posters here, along with myself, were arguing your stance. But it seems we all agree.

I’d also like to add though, that whatever person treats her badly for it, will be accountable as well.

 

[bmullins]

James 3:1 & 2, "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. NIV.
.

I think you are misreading what James intended from that verse. According to my studies, James was telling people who are not qualified that if they pretended to be teachers that they would be condemned for it. A reminder that not everyone is called to teach, and if you are not… don’t.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

If men expect women to be innocent, they themselves must be innocent.

Therein lies the problem, m’dear. Neither one is innocent.

Once again, it is completely strawman to go back and forth with which of the sexes is to be held more accountable. You are a woman, yes? You only have you to worry about.

 

[passer_by]

Good. I agree, it didn’t seem like that’s what you meant though, and that’s why 2 other posters here, along with myself, were arguing your stance. But it seems we all agree.

I’d also like to add though, that whatever person treats her badly for it, will be accountable as well.

Someone should definitely correct her though!

 

[Debora123]

Perhaps it is a matter of perception here.

I think what needs to be said is that Women have more to watch-out for to maintain modesty, purity, chastity etc.

You have to remember that Modesty, Chastity are simply not things that disrupt the individuals life if violated. It effects the neighbor.

So since you seem to agree on the fact that at least on modesty, the women have more to watch-out for, then it logically follows that women have to take more care to become virtuous.

But just like you, if the statement

that women have a higher responsibility to be virtuous people than men do

implies ‘women are better people than men if leading good lives in terms of degree of virtuousness’ I disagree. Both are called to be virtuous according to their gender. It is just more things that one needs to watch-out for if one is a woman. But that does not mean that women if leading good lives are greater than men in terms of virtue or anything.

I pretty much agree with, but wouldn’t say women have more things to watch out for. Just different things.

 

[francisca]

To stop thinking about “immodesty” is a virtue for men and women.

To have prejudice of others intent is sinful in itself.

 

[Debora123]

Someone should definitely correct her though!

Someone should correct the man who treats her badly as well.

 

[Bearontherun]

I think you are misreading what James intended from that verse. According to my studies, James was telling people who are not qualified that if they pretended to be teachers that they would be condemned for it. A reminder that not everyone is called to teach, and if you are not… don’t.

Fair enough. I wasn’t sure if that scripture reference was appropriate but thought it might be. Thanks for the info.

 

[francisca]

Therein lies the problem, m’dear. Neither one is innocent.

Once again, it is completely strawman to go back and forth with which of the sexes is to be held more accountable. You are a woman, yes? You only have you to worry about.

Since none are innocent, then it is not fair to expect women to be innocent.

 

[Debora123]

You also wrote this off a long while back:

If you get the point, I don’t care if you hate me. Accept you made a mistake, and lets move on. I have acknowledged I was completely wrong on multiple occasions on this website, and I can assure you from personal experience no one will think any less of you because of it.

Besides I refuse to be out-stubborned in a thread (And no, I don’t think out-stubborned is a real word)

Ok, but I’m not quite sure what my mistake was. I don’t agree with your stance.

 

[severus68]

I

absolutely did not. You

Are you comparing the wearing by a woman of ‘immodest’ dress as evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that she has the intent to arouse and incite lust? I hope not.

Re your side comment, , if the man who shot his neighbour between the eyes did so in a national park in the US, was actually trying to shoot a grizzly coming at a run towards them and shot his neighbour as he was a lousy shot or could not aim properly because of his fright, would not be a fanciful, remote possibility.

 

[severus68]

Interesting opinion.

I would prefer “innocent fathers” to teach their sons to look at women with innocent hearts.

 

[Nate13]

Originally Posted by francisca View Post
Interesting opinion.

I would prefer “innocent fathers” to teach their sons to look at women with innocent hearts.

Amen to that. “Influence” though

 

[severus68]

Strictly speaking from a Sexual point of view, its much more problematic when a woman goes topless than a man doing the same thing. Men also tend to view things more sexually than women.

So even in terms of dress, how they conduct a relationship with the opposite sex, women have more to watch-out for. The very fact that women in the Western cultures are usually totally unaware of these things which usually get passed down from Culture i.e. generation to generation, is probably why there is such a breakdown in family in Western society.

One can now of course disagree, but if you want to be taken seriously, you have to provide reasons for us to agree with you, right?

It is obviousthat a woman going topless is more of a problem than a man going topless.
It is a cop out for men to say men are more visual etc. It is wrong to sexualise anything ane anyone whether done by men or women.

Why should women have more to watch out? To ask for reasons to disagree with you, you should really substantiate your assertions.

 

[chevalier]

Strictly speaking from a Sexual point of view, its much more problematic when a woman goes topless than a man doing the same thing.

I remember coming across a claim that women are equally attracted to male chests as men to female ones. On the other hand, I’d be surprised if centuries of male toplessness hadn’t dampened sensitivity. At any rate, the way I see it, there may be two reasons for the topless trend: 1) functional/equality—if it turned out that chests were equally attractive between the sexes, I wouldn’t have much of a problem with it (there’d remain some problematic aspects but I’d leave them to wiser people and specialists), 2) “I like topless because it’s sexy!”—in which case I have better things to think about in my free time but I disagree with the idea once it pops up.

Men also tend to view things more sexually than women.

I don’t think I could agree with that. I’d say women have everything more integrated (which does mean it’s easier for them to see “the whole person”), while men, not having it so integrated, are able to spot the sexual aspects of something more clearly. I believe this is what John Paul II said in Love and Responsibility but I may have summarised it imperfectly. This coincides with my personal experience too. There have been varying stereotypes in history about which gender takes things more sexually or has a bigger appetite. I strongly suspect it’s probably equal but expressed in different ways, which confuses people.

Still, I’d say that a man is more at risk of running into a clearly sexual temptation, while a woman is more at risk of not realising how sexual something is.

So even in terms of dress, how they conduct a relationship with the opposite sex, women have more to watch-out for.

Well, it probably can’t be denied that men would have somewhat fewer opportunities due to the differences between types of clothing women wear and men wear. Let’s take ballroom. You can do a lot with a ballroom dress. You really can’t do much with a tux. You can probably make it shiny or cut it out of leather if they will relax the dress code. At a business workplace the only piece of skin you can show which is below the knot of your tie is ordinarily your palms, although fore-arms up to elbow are fine when you fold your sleeves and if you’re junior enough, you can get away with a short-sleeved dressy shirt. Your female colleague can show almost all the leg and cleavage she wants and only at some point will her professional reputation be prejudiced (but nothing will be said or done anyway). At night clubs, I guess you can have as clingy an outfit as you want (at the risk of being mistaken for an active homosexual) but there’s still not as much that you can do as a woman can.

The very fact that women in the Western cultures are usually totally unaware of these things which usually get passed down from Culture i.e. generation to generation, is probably why there is such a breakdown in family in Western society.

Umm… I’m not sure women really are usually totally unaware. What I will say is that some are probably wearing outfits designed by male designers to titillate other males with. I have no way of assessing any approximate proportion of unaware to vaguely aware to completely aware, and I won’t be guessing.

At any rate, I suspect the manner of walking, moving in general, talking, etc., shall we say the dynamic aspects (as opposed to the static one, which is the apparel worn) will actually play a huge but typically unrecognised role in governing the impression of decency or lack of it.

 

[severus68]

Which is impossible to do when women dress provocatively. There is something called Concupiscence at work here you know

It is impossible for parents to teach their sons to treat women with respect? What part of Christ’s teachings makes it impossible?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Nate, what in heaven’s name are you even talking about??

I honestly have no idea where you are going with this or what precisely you are trying to say. So I will just leave it at that.

I don’t understand you.

Nope, you’ve said it before. See, I do know what’s going on in this thread.

Now, where were we?