There were instances of bishops or cardinals naming specific standards in the context of specific cultures. I’m not sure if someone didn’t actually find a papal statement in one of the countless modesty threads here in the CAF, but my memory is failing me.
Actually that is not true. You and I can’t hold others responsible. But as God has repeatedly said in Scripture, ‘another person can lead a another to sin’. So God will hold others responsible.
Just clarifying, my dear.
There are a lot of things about modern Western Culture that are bad. But not ALL the things are bad. Several decades ago, Western Culture used to promote slavery and sexism. It is a blessing that those things are greatly looked down upon now a days. So yes, there are bad things and good things. The pope does not say that the standard forms of modest dress in Western society has become corrupt.
I just meant Free will. True love cannot be forced.
Yes, the Church has been very clear on the body, sex, and pro-creation. That should also be helpful in the clothing department. E.g. what you wear in front of your spouse or in the bedroom is most likely not best to wear outside of the house.
Never doubted that.Lucky for me, my conscience has been formed within the Church.
Ah I see. So you are telling me that you are certain that your choice of dress is modest and that mine is not, because you come from a culture that YOU claim has the correct standards of modesty, while mine does not.
Interesting.Well one could see that last line and conclude that as long as that area is not exposed, it’s fine. Someone else could read that line and conclude that a burka would be the only thing that would cover and under emphasize a woman’s form.
Past pope’s opinions of what was modest at their time, is completely different from an official Church position on what is deemed modest and what is not.
Your statement is missing one point. If a person actually desires to be lusted for (e.g. for an ego boost or to become aroused oneself with the knowledge that we’ve just aroused someone) and acts on that desire, then that person is sinning. I am omitting gender pronouns here on purpose because it is the same for both sexes and it is not relevant which sex one is (and, for example, a confessor does not need to ask about the penitent’s sex when hearing about this sin and absolving the penitent).
Yes, in fact I was just giving you an example that the Church or rather prominent churchmen have actually from time to time attempted to give some very specific guidelines from the point of view of the time and place. This is not normally done and I suspect it’s avoided for a number of reasons, but it’s not like there aren’t precedents for a bishop to say, “this and that is okay, the rest is not.” Just so you know. Certainly wasn’t referring you to a dress code a cardinal wrote in 19th century.
Well good! I highly doubt anyone here wears out in public, what they wear in the bedroom for their husbands.
Walking_Home:
Actually that is not true. You and I can’t hold others responsible. But as God has repeatedly said in Scripture, ‘another person can lead a another to sin’. So God will hold others responsible.
I think what might be causing you to err in this discussion is that you are only seeing one side of the issue. You are ignoring everything that is present in Scripture and Tradition against your position
Always a pleasure to be of assistance!
The key word there is “STANDARD”. The dress of Western society today is far from its own standards.
About me you can be sure!Well good! I highly doubt anyone here wears out in public, what they wear in the bedroom for their husbands.
As I said before, you are emphasizing one part over the other. This does not get us anywhere. The proper way to understand teaching is as a whole.
I disagree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with bikinis, nor do I think that our standard of dress has become immoral. It has changed, but it has always changed, and will always continue to change. It isn’t the clothing, or the body itself that is bad… it is the people’s reactions. And if wearing a bikini to the beach is seen as normal and doesn’t arouse particular negative reactions, then there is nothing immoral about it.
That is correct so far as the man was responsible for the act of lustful thoughts. Obviously the sin that the immodestly dressed woman committed was not a sin lust. It was a sin of leading others to sin.
You’re accusing me of making assumptions but aren’t you confusing absence of proof with absence of fact? If someone is sexying it up it really doesn’t need a sworn affidavit from that point to conclude that sexual attention is being sought and just because only God has enough information (let alone authority) to judge that person’s soul doesn’t mean I can’t make a factual assessment. And we aren’t talking about me judging that person. We are talking about it being wrong or not to dress in ways that intentionally or recklessly invoke lust in others.
We also need to separate the sin of leading others to sin by supposedly not being careful or accommodating enough, from actually intending someone else to do something which is sinful. If we do intend someone to lust for us, then there is no way we can use the excuse that too much caution is required of us—because it wasn’t about caution in the first place. The latter case is actively leading someone to sin and has nothing to do with failing to take precautions. I seem to be utterly unable to convey this point in the modesty threads.
As I said before, you are already assuming your culture is GOOD or CORRECT in its approach to dress. That is not necessarily true. Judging by your picture, I would say your culture has much to learn about standard of dress and modesty.I disagree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with bikinis, nor do I think that our standard of dress has become immoral. It has changed, but it has always changed, and will always continue to change. It isn’t the clothing, or the body itself that is bad… it is the people’s reactions. And if wearing a bikini to the beach is seen as normal and doesn’t arouse particular negative reactions, then there is nothing immoral about it.
**Below is my former beach in Brazil. As you can see, wearing bikinis is a normal part of the city’s culture, and is not considered dirty or immodest in any way. **
The bikini does not display those regions. The top is covered up, and so is the bottom front and the bottom back.