The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[Dakota_Roberts]

Women are innocent in their attempt to look attractive and beautiful.

You just can’t make them share the men’s guilt of lust from that area alone.

You yourself share about your cousins who think that they should dress cute and **sexy, because they like guys attention, and in doing that they didn’t intent to make anyone to fall into sin.
**
Even flowers of the field are made that way (beautiful/ attractive) to draw attention.

No your honour, I swear I didn’t mean to kill him, I only meant to shoot him.

 

[LilyM]

Women are innocent in their attempt to look attractive and beautiful.

You just can’t make them share the men’s guilt of lust from that area alone.

You yourself share about your cousins who think that they should dress cute and sexy, because they like guys attention, and in doing that they didn’t intent to make anyone to fall into sin.

Even flowers of the field are made that way (beautiful/ attractive) to draw attention.

You are again confusing ‘beautiful’ ‘attractive’ and ‘cute’ with ‘sexy’. The concepts are quite distinct and different from each other, and one can certainly be any or all of the first three without being the remotest bit sexy.

Flowers? They can be the first three, but never sexy!

You seem to be an intelligent person, so I presume you are not unaware of the very real difference between being ‘sexy’ and being any of the other things. That being the case, it would appear that you are deceptively combining them in the hopes of furthering your own claim that you have some sort of right to dress sexy.

 

[LilyM]

No your honour, I swear I didn’t mean to kill him, I only meant to shoot him.

Amen!

‘I’m sorry your honour, I know I was drunk driving but I didn’t MEAN to hit that person!’

 

[francisca]

Dead wrong - God personally made clothes out of animal skins for her (and Adam) - and He did NOT do it out of necessity - most native tribes get along very well without furs, and in much harsher climates than the Middle East too.

Some tribes in tropical islands live without animal furs. They are naked until today. So hasn’t God clothed them yet? Why? Aren’t they immodest in God’s eye? What’s catholic teaching about respecting other culture?

Of course he forgave her, my dear but He certainly didn’t say ‘oh you poor little dearie, look what that nasty evil lustful man did to you, it’s all his fault!’ No. He held her fully responsible for her sin and strictly warned her not to continue in that or any other sin.

Let’s not forget that the woman DID commit adultery, therefore sinful, and therefore JEsus said “Go, and sin no more”. Yet Jesus did not say “Next time dress modestly, lest men fall for you again”. Should this is the reason why she fell into sin, surely Jesus would teach her about it. He did not.

Modesty is for men too - the church teachings make no distinction.

Yes. Let’s expect men to wear burqua. Long sleeve regardless wheather, long pants even when at the beach and swimming. And if they don’t follow this, we can call them all sorts of name that demeaning and degrading them.

Oh, and It IS sheltering women - and men - by reminding all of us that what we wear is important,…

Not really. Whatever we wear is not THAT important compare to how we treat other human beings with respect regardless of clothes.

 

[francisca]

You are again confusing ‘beautiful’ ‘attractive’ and ‘cute’ with ‘sexy’. The concepts are quite distinct and different from each other, and one can certainly be any or all of the first three without being the remotest bit sexy.

Flowers? They can be the first three, but never sexy!

You seem to be an intelligent person, so I presume you are not unaware of the very real difference between being ‘sexy’ and being any of the other things. That being the case, it would appear that you are deceptively combining them in the hopes of furthering your own claim that you have some sort of right to dress sexy.

So, you have not answer my question directed to you:

Is being sexy a sin?

 

[LilyM]

Some tribes in tropical islands live without animal furs. They are naked until today. So hasn’t God clothed them yet? Why? Aren’t they immodest in God’s eye? What’s catholic teaching about respecting other culture?

Why didn’t He create all of us blond haired, blue eyed or great at maths while He was at it? You’d have to ask Him. Doesn’t negate what He DID do for Adam and Eve, and it’s significance for those of us who know of it.

Let’s not forget that the woman DID commit adultery, therefore sinful, and therefore JEsus said “Go, and sin no more”. Yet Jesus did not say “Next time dress modestly, lest men fall for you again”. Should this is the reason why she fell into sin, surely Jesus would teach her about it. He did not.

He didn’t tell her not to steal either - does that mean He would be OK with it if she stole? He said don’t sin, immodesty has always been considered a sin just as stealing has, that
was enough for her to know not to dress immodestly.

Yes. Let’s expect men to wear burqua. Long sleeve regardless wheather, long pants even when at the beach and swimming. And if they don’t follow this, we can call them all sorts of name that demeaning and degrading them.

Neither I nor anybody else here is requiring long sleeves. Neither I nor anyone else here is suggesting burqas. Neither I nor anyone here is calling anyone anything demeaning. Are we discussing sin? Of course, but we are all sinners. I have my own struggles with sin, and in no way feel superior to anyone here, or that anyone here is in any way inferior to
me. But surely even fallible sinful people can help and advise each other?

Not really. Whatever we wear is not THAT important compare to how we treat other human beings with respect regardless of clothes.

It’s less important, but it is still incredibly important. Otherwise our designers and manufacturers wouldn’t spend so much time, effort and money ensuring that there is a constant stream of clothes flooding into our shops in such a huge variety of styles and colors. They do it because most of us do greatly value being able to find just the right style and color that best expresses our personality.

So, you have not answer my question directed to you:

Is being sexy a sin?

Oh it was a serious question was it? Gosh, no wonder you are so confused, you can’t tell the difference between DRESSING sexy, which is what this thread is about, and BEING sexy.

There are things like body shape, height, weight and so on that we have limited control over, that contribute to someone looking sexy or not. To the extent that we cannot control them no it is not a sin.

Then there are things like clothing choice, that are fully within our control. To the extent that we choose provocative and sexy clothing, anywhere but the bedroom and for anyone but our spouses, of course it is a sin.

 

[Liquid47]

So, you have not answer my question directed to you:

Is being sexy a sin?

Being sexy is not a sin in and of itself. You can act and be very ‘sexy’ to your spouse if it is a mark of your unconditional love for him/her.

To incite lust in a person that is not your spouse is, however, sinful.

You shouldn’t commit to disingenuous propositions such as ‘Is being sexy a sin?’, because it doesn’t actually help either party. One of the fantastic traits of the Catholic faith is its commitment to intellectual enlightenment, however, such questions such as you proposed are insincere i.e, rather than try and enlighten the mind about a moral truth, it attempts to reconcile logic to a preconceived agenda.

 

[francisca]

Oh it was a serious question was it? Gosh, no wonder you are so confused, you can’t tell the difference between DRESSING sexy, which is what this thread is about, and BEING sexy.

There are things like body shape, height, weight and so on that we have limited control over, that contribute to someone looking sexy or not. **To the extent that we cannot control them no it is not a sin.

Then there are things like clothing choice, that are fully within our control. To the extent that we choose provocative and sexy clothing, anywhere but the bedroom and for anyone but our spouses, of course it is a sin.**

1. So are you saying that “being sexy” is not a sin.
2. However, to dress sexy (provocative) is a sin.

LilyM, we all are sexual beings. Whether we like it or not, our opposite sex will always see us as sexy, regardless what they say. That is part of “being sexy” and you know it is not sinful.

Now your saying that to dress sexy (provocative) is a sin, this is true in some cases. The problem is, most of the time this is not the case with women. Part of female sexuality is to attract males attention. If only men would be interested more when women dress in burqa, I can guarantee you that women would all compete to dress in burqa. We dress sexy because that’s what men like. This is our sexuality, not bad intention, not evil scheming, neither a trap for men. No.

I often hear women say “I will never wear short skirt like that, what a slut”. In my heart I always know that if only that woman who say “I will never…”-- if only this woman had the same long legs and youth, she would have worn similar skirt. Because all women want to look beautiful (and sexy, wheter we realize it or not), and women are “instictively” competitive in this area too. Without any exception, all women roam about the shopping malls to look something that will make them look beautiful and sexually attractive, regardless age, education, culture. Is this a bad thing? Not until some men (and women) try to blame us for who we are.

 

[LilyM]

1. So are you saying that “being sexy” is not a sin.
2. However, to dress sexy (provocative) is a sin.

LilyM, we all are sexual beings. Whether we like it or not, our opposite sex will always see us as sexy, regardless what they say. That is part of “being sexy” and you know it is not sinful.

Now your saying that to dress sexy (provocative) is a sin, this is true in some cases. The problem is, most of the time this is not the case with women. Part of female sexuality is to attract males attention. If only men would be interested more when women dress in burqa, I can guarantee you that women would all compete to dress in burqa. We dress sexy because that’s what men like. This is our sexuality, not bad intention, not evil scheming, neither a trap for men. No.

I often hear women say “I have never wear short skirt like that, what a slut”. In my heart I always know that if only that woman who say “I have never…”-- if only this woman has the same long legs and youth, she would. Because all women want to look beautiful, and women are “instictively” competitive in this area too. Without any exception, all women roam about the shopping malls to look something that will make them look beautiful and sexually attractive, regardless age, education, culture. Is this a bad thing? Not until some men (and women) try to blame us for who we are.

‘Who I am’ is large-breasted, which is something plenty of men find sexually attractive. There are SOME (limited) times in my past when I craved sexual attention, knew that my cleavage was an attractive feature, and so wore low cut tops. God forgive me.

There was nothing at all instinctive about it, it was very much conscious and deliberate. And something I could and did turn on and off like a tap. I’m sure a lot of people around me were startled on those occasions when I did ‘dress to kill’, as it was very different from my usual everyday style of clothing. And when I wore my everyday usual style of clothing I got much MUCH less attention, but what I did get was more genuine and respectful.

So yes, I can easily blame you for ‘who you are’ because you CHOOSE ‘who you are’, just like I did, and you can, to a large extent, choose how other people react to you in doing so.

And blaming it on jealousy? Saying ‘every woman would dress sexy if she had the body’? What a pathetically weak attempt at an excuse. I DID have the body and I could and did have a great deal of control, as every woman does, over how other people responded to me.

 

[severus68]

Okay. And I do admit I have not been following this thread until just this night.

I can see your point here. This is where it’s important to keep in mind the Church’s view on modesty and preservation of purity. Is “strapless” immodest? Is any dress that is not strapless a dress that is also not stunning?

Here it is about firstly making a subjective assessment about some’s dress and secondly presuming intent and judging. Even if a person dresses in a manner we feel is in bad taste, even vulgar, I think we should be as charitable as possible. We are not getting people into the Church and we will lose some if we are going to tell women that they dress like whores and tell them they are going to hell unless they repent.

While, there has been insistence that no one disrespects anyone dressing ‘immodestly’, many comments prove otherwise.

 

[francisca]

I DID have the body and I could and did have a great deal of control, as every woman does, over how other people responded to me.

Well, that’s what you think as a woman. You did had your time, and you think those were THE ONLY TIME people saw you being immodest (that was when you dress to kill). You may be right, or may be not. When men try to blame women for what’s in their minds, we, women have no control over THAT whatsoever. You may think you have satisfy all “modesty criteria” according TO YOU. The question is, will you allow people to DISPUTE YOUR STANDARD?

I don’t remember to have any time in my life where “I dress to kill”. As long as I remember, I always dress to look pretty and sexy. Even when I am “sloppy”, I try to look “sloppyly attractive”

Sexy does not necessarily mean reavealing, or provocative. Sexy means makes my body looks good and even better. For example I wear high heels to make me look taller, wear belt to make me look slimmer, and so on. In doing this I know I try to look sexy. The word beautiful is a general term, but sexy is what all women want to look (regardless of age). I remember my grandma’s sisters choosing their dress from the magazine, before going to a tailor shop. I believe even men would want to look good in their clothes. Nobody dress to make their body look more ugly. We all are sexual beings, we try to accentuate our sexual appeal when we dress.

All in all, I’d like to look “stunning” when I attend mass.

How’s that suddenly become a sin, when suddenly a man got distracted during consecration?

 

[Holly3278]

I fully agreed with the article. I am a lady and I am deeply offended by women and men who dress immodestly, especially when they do so with the intention of causing arousal in members of the opposite sex as is often the case. I try to always dress modestly and always have. Now, don’t get me wrong, I have regrettably sinned in this area in the past but I do not do so anymore.

That said, I do think the sexual revolution played a big part in the epidemic of intentional immodesty with intent to arouse a member of the opposite sex. I wish the sexual revolution had never happened. Far too many evil things came out of it, including what the author calls “The Death of Pretty”.

 

[Bearontherun]

Without any exception, all women roam about the shopping malls to look something that will make them look beautiful and sexually attractive, regardless age, education, culture.

…coming from a woman…but what if a man had said that?

 

[Bearontherun]

I fully agreed with the article. I am a lady and I am deeply offended by women and men who dress immodestly, especially when they do so with the intention of causing arousal in members of the opposite sex as is often the case. I try to always dress modestly and always have. Now, don’t get me wrong, I have regrettably sinned in this area in the past but I do not do so anymore.

That said, I do think the sexual revolution played a big part in the epidemic of intentional immodesty with intent to arouse a member of the opposite sex. I wish the sexual revolution had never happened. Far too many evil things came out of it, including what the author calls “The Death of Pretty”.

I believe that we should not be trying to look sexy for anyone other than our spouse. We should give God the credit for making us beautiful and admit that it is not necessary to work too hard to draw extra attention to our “assets.” If we become too focused on our appearance and competing with others for attention, it can quickly lead to pride, jealousy, etc.

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, exactly. If you are upset about the issue of modesty, take it up with God and quit blaming the few Christians who desire to live according to His Word.

---

I keep in mind for myself —God – have mercy on me – a sinner.

 

[ahs]

Women are innocent in their attempt to look attractive and beautiful.

You just can’t make them share the men’s guilt of lust from that area alone.

You yourself share about your cousins who think that they should dress cute and sexy, because they like guys attention, and in doing that they didn’t intent to make anyone to fall into sin.

Even flowers of the field are made that way (beautiful/ attractive) to draw attention.

You are right that I cannot maek women share the blame when a man looks lustfully at them. But God does hold them accountable. That is why I posted (as did Nate13) the Catechism reference. A woman (as well as a man) must make a well-informed decision about how to dress, because if they purposefully dress to attract attention, or knowing that their clothing is likely to get lustful attention, they are leading others into sin. This is God’s view on it, not mine.

Yes, my counsins learned they needed to dress so as to attract men’s attention. Their parent’s are partially to blame for that, and are accountable. As adults, they are also now acountable for how they dress, knowing that men are looking at them immodestly (and yes, they know this).

“…but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Matt 18:6, NAS Bible). These are not my words, or my opinion. This is Christ speaking .

I’ll say again, this time seriously without the tongue-in-cheek as I did before (that Walking_Home quoted)…

Many of us on this thread are trying to tell you how God sees this issue, as evidenced in the teaching of His Church. It is not just my/our opinion of modesty being forced on you. Immodesty is a serious issue, where lookers-on can be led to sin, and we ARE held accountable for the sins of others if we play a role in it or if we fail to discourage the sin. This is not my opinion, this is the teaching of God. It is not me who would hold you accountable, it is God.

---

I keep in mind for myself —God – have mercy on me – a sinner.

Amen! (By the way, my comment you quoted was said tongue-in-cheek. But still the important thing is that we are trying to live to God’s standards/rules, not man’s.

 

[Debora123]

F

A. Forbidding as saying it is wrong/immodest to wear a stunning wedding dress like Debora’s as it is strapless;

Thanks for defensing me this whole times Severus (and others), but don’t sweat it.

Truth is, there is a very VERY miniscule number of people who would actually say that I looked raunchy and was inciting lust on my wedding day. (Most of which reside in this website, and 0 of which I come into contact with in the real world)

…Just like there is a very miniscule number of people who would say it is raunchy for women to wear a pair of jeans.

…And just like there are people in the world who think wearing anything less than a burqa is immodest.

Needless to say, I don’t really care what the few people here are saying about the way I looked at my wedding. There are always going to be grumpy, unhappy people out there no matter what you do or don’t do.

I will say though that when I’m here is the only time I ever feel so objectified and scrutinized because of my clothes/appearances. An objectification that is painfully but hilariously ironic.

Saying things like “well MY wife on OUR wedding day wore something pretty and modest,” and “at MY Catholic school we wouldn’t be allowed to wear such,” and “your male FRIENDS may very well be thinking/talking about you in a dirty way behind your back,” and “if you were dressed differently maybe your husband would have started dating you EARLIER because you wouldn’t look like just another dime-a-dozen girl,” are pretty much the most objectifying, appearance focused, I-do-it-better-than-you, attitude people have taken with me in a long time… maybe even ever.

What they don’t realize is that the only thing I take from all that is thankfulness that the real people around me see me as much more of a person than that.

 

[severus68]

Thanks for defensing me this whole times Severus (and others), but don’t sweat it.

Truth is, there is a very VERY miniscule number of people who would actually say that I looked raunchy and was inciting lust on my wedding day. (Most of which reside in this website, and 0 of which I come into contact with in the real world)

…Just like there is a very miniscule number of people who would say it is raunchy for women to wear a pair of jeans.

…And just like there are people in the world who think wearing anything less than a burqa is immodest.

Needless to say, I don’t really care what the few people here are saying about the way I looked at my wedding. There are always going to be grumpy, unhappy people out there no matter what you do or don’t do.

I will say though that when I’m here is the only time I ever feel so objectified and scrutinized because of my clothes/appearances. An objectification that is painfully but hilariously ironic.

Saying things like “well MY wife on OUR wedding day wore something pretty and modest,” and “at MY Catholic school we wouldn’t be allowed to wear such,” and “your male FRIENDS may very well be thinking/talking about you in a dirty way behind your back,” and “if you were dressed differently maybe your husband would have started dating you EARLIER because you wouldn’t look like just another dime-a-dozen girl,” are pretty much the most objectifying, appearance focused, I-do-it-better-than-you, attitude people have taken with me in a long time… maybe even ever.

What they don’t realize is that the only thing I take from all that is thankfulness that the real people around me see me as much more of a person than that.

Good for you Debora. I like your openess and attitude.

 

[Walking_Home]

Thanks for defensing me this whole times Severus (and others), but don’t sweat it.

Truth is, there is a very VERY miniscule number of people who would actually say that I looked raunchy and was inciting lust on my wedding day. (Most of which reside in this website, and 0 of which I come into contact with in the real world)

…Just like there is a very miniscule number of people who would say it is raunchy for women to wear a pair of jeans.

…And just like there are people in the world who think wearing anything less than a burqa is immodest.

Needless to say, I don’t really care what the few people here are saying about the way I looked at my wedding. There are always going to be grumpy, unhappy people out there no matter what you do or don’t do.

I will say though that when I’m here is the only time I ever feel so objectified and scrutinized because of my clothes/appearances. An objectification that is painfully but hilariously ironic.

Saying things like “well MY wife on OUR wedding day wore something pretty and modest,” and “at MY Catholic school we wouldn’t be allowed to wear such,” and “your male FRIENDS may very well be thinking/talking about you in a dirty way behind your back,” and “if you were dressed differently maybe your husband would have started dating you EARLIER because you wouldn’t look like just another dime-a-dozen girl,” are pretty much the most objectifying, appearance focused, I-do-it-better-than-you, attitude people have taken with me in a long time… maybe even ever.

What they don’t realize is that the only thing I take from all that is thankfulness that the real people around me see me as much more of a person than that.

---

Don’t know if I’ve mentioned this to you before – but in case I haven’t—you looked very lovely at your wedding.

 

[ahs]

…Saying things like “well MY wife on OUR wedding day wore something pretty and modest,” … are pretty much the most objectifying, appearance focused, I-do-it-better-than-you, attitude people have taken with me in a long time… maybe even ever.

What they don’t realize is that the only thing I take from all that is thankfulness that the real people around me see me as much more of a person than that.

Debora123, I’m not certain if I’m the only one who said anything about my own wife’s wedding dress being modest. When I did, it had absolutely nothing to do with you. So, if you are referring to my post, please don’t presume that my replies are about you. My comment at that time was to directly address the fact that neither the Catechism, nor my use of it, forbids a woman from wearing a stunnign wedding dress.

Here is what I was responding to:

Yeah, and use cathecism to FORBID women wearing stunning wedding dress?..

And I replied:

I’ve seen plenty “stunning” wedding dresses that are modest. My wife looked stunning in hers; and it was quite modest…