The Death of the Dinosaurs and Original Sin

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GordonBOPS

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This question was spurred by questions from my nine year old – some of the most dangerous questions you can be asked:
If Dinosaurs died out before Adam and Eve (which I think would be the position we need to take from science) how then can original sin have caused death and decay to enter the universe if the dinosaurs had already experienced such death and decay, heck even if they hadn’t died out, we know there was death among dinosaurs etc…
 
Hey Gordon, I’ll let God answer your questions for you, but you’d better pray for the grace of faith! You’ll need it in this deceived world (Revelation 20:7-9).

“Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living. For he fashioned all things that they might have being” (Wisdom 1:13-14 NAB)

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin” (Romans 5:12 NIV)

“When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves… The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.” (Genesis 3:6-7,21)

Death entered the world through one man’s sin. And what about dinosaurs?

“Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword… When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth. Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose?” (Job 40:15-24)

And here’s an interesting story (among many):

embraces its Jurassic pastYemen
“…The dinosaur tracks have been lying exposed, above ground, for centuries, but scientists only recently stumbled across them following a tip-off from a local journalist… The prints are located in several different sites dotted around Madar village, and are from both ornithopods - bipedal dinosaurs - as well as sauropods [brachiosaurus, etc.], which walked on four legs and are the largest animals ever to have lived on land… At 150 million years old, the tracks are so ancient…”

“Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” (Romans 1:22-25)
 
GordonBOPS said:
This question was spurred by questions from my nine year old – some of the most dangerous questions you can be asked:
If Dinosaurs died out before Adam and Eve (which I think would be the position we need to take from science) how then can original sin have caused death and decay to enter the universe if the dinosaurs had already experienced such death and decay, heck even if they hadn’t died out, we know there was death among dinosaurs etc…
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Not only dinosaurs, but all plant and animals that lived in the past.

Death came upon Adam when he decided to turn his back on God and do what he was forbidden to do. Death comes to us when we do the same thing. We call it sin and if we die in a state of mortal sin, we die. Our souls go to hell and our bodies are truly dead. If, on the other hand, we don’t die in a state of mortal sin, we have eternal life. At the time of the second coming of Christ, our souls will be reunited with our bodies.

No other animal that lived before Adam or after has the same opportunity for eternal life because they don’t have immortal souls. They were not affected by Adam’s sin. The death that is the result of Adam’s sin (and in fact all of our sins) is a spiritual death.

Peace

Tim
 
The end of earthly existence doesn’t define death. For animals the seperation of body and soul doesn’t define death because their soul is generated from the earth. The death that came with sin is the death that seperates all living matter from heaven because it is to man that all living matter tends toward and through which God’s eternal purpose is fulfilled.

Original sin severed man from God and the human body from it’s principle of life that finds it’s source not in the earth but in God. Seperation from God because seperation from God is death.

Living matter is fulfilled in man and man is fulfilled in God.

Living matter’ and it’s eternal purpose suffers death because it is fulfilled in the living matter destined to be divinized in man.

Creation groans in waiting for the sons of God to be revealed.
 
Benadam said:
The end of earthly existence doesn’t define death. For animals the seperation of body and soul doesn’t define death because their soul is generated from the earth./QUOTE]

Do you have evidence to support this claim?
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StAnastasia said:
Benadam;4735248:
The end of earthly existence doesn’t define death. For animals the seperation of body and soul doesn’t define death because their soul is generated from the earth./QUOTE]

Do you have evidence to support this claim?
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There are two claims there and I’m not sure what evidence means to you. I’m thinking that you mean the latter because the former is evidenced by the Church’s teaching that death is the seperation of body and soul and not a natural state.

That our earthly lives were not meant to end by the seperation of body and soul is concluded. That the end of earthly life does not define death is as well. That there is a second death for man is also evidence that the end of earthly life does not define death.

The latter is a bit more obscure. I can’t produce the hard evidence without searching out Summa Theologica for the various concepts, essence ,species intellect sensitive soul etc. I can tell you how it’s understood and not a violation of catholic teaching.

Through discussions comparing theology for the sake of confirming and suspecting ideas I have come to understand the Franciscan view of animal souls and will try to explain it as best I can. I hope I can keep it in the context of the question.

The Franciscans have developed a theology concerning the properties of animal soul that give it characteristics more akin to the characteristics of spirit. So much so that they call the life principle of animals ‘soulish’. That’s because the powers proper to animal souls don’t include the powers that enable them to be a self determined creature.

That being the case the animal doesn’t possess individuality primarily from it’s soul as humans do but a soul that is more like a collective life principle of their species. In a way it can be considered a soul shared by all members of their species. A soul that experiences through a collection of bodies. This being the case the seperation of an individual body does not define death of the collective soul because it is a soul that does not depend on any one body.

The body is unique and individated through experiencing. The bodies individual experience continues to exist through it’s unique and unrepeatable contribution to the collective soul that expresses dogness. The animal soul and essence become united in purpose sharing a life principle and in this view animal soul takes on collective oneness.

There has been no real seperation of dog flesh from dog soul. The dog’s particlar experience through it’s body continues on through it’s contribution to the the essence of dog expressed through the flesh dog soul animates. Animal soul is not individuated by unique experience of an individual body.

What the animal soul is for the individual animal the human spirit is for humans… It is through the human spirit that we are one species and through the powers of our human soul that allows us to be a self determined creature and a species unto ourselves. God made man for his own sake.

Because God put the earth and all it holds at the service of man the fulfillment of it’s purpose is tied to the purpose of man. Animal life finds it’s purpose and is fulfilled in man as man’s life find’s it’s purpose and is fuilfilled in God. Death for man and animals is ultimately defined by seperation from God.
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Oh…I’m not sure if the claim that the animal soul is generated from natural powers or as I put it in the post, from the earth, is what you want evidence about. That was taught by St Thomas Aquinas.
 
Benadam said:
Oh…I’m not sure if the claim that the animal soul is generated from natural powers or as I put it in the post, from the earth, is what you want evidence about. That was taught by St Thomas Aquinas.
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What was Aquinas’ evidence that “the animal soul is generated from natural powers”?
 
StAnastasia said:
What was Aquinas’ evidence that “the animal soul is generated from natural powers”?
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Well, one way he teaches that is by pointing out that all powers of animal souls operate through corporeal organs. They have no powers that are outside of the corporeal order such as the intellect.
 
Benadam said:
Well, one way he teaches that is by pointing out that all powers of animal souls operate through corporeal organs. They have no powers that are outside of the cor[poreal order such as the intellect.
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What human power comes from outside the corporeal order? The human intellect has evolved with the brain from earlier hominid origins.
[/quote]
 
GordonBOPS said:
This question was spurred by questions from my nine year old – some of the most dangerous questions you can be asked:
If Dinosaurs died out before Adam and Eve (which I think would be the position we need to take from science) how then can original sin have caused death and decay to enter the universe if the dinosaurs had already experienced such death and decay, heck even if they hadn’t died out, we know there was death among dinosaurs etc…
Click to expand...
Gordon, I urge you to have the courage to admit to your children that Adam and Eve never really existed; perhaps they were allegories, perhaps total lies. Remind your children that the tale of Adam and Eve was written around 1400BC by a man who quite frankly both borrowed heavily from other religions and made things up when creating the history of the pre-1400BC Jewish faith.
 
StAnastasia said:
What human power comes from outside the corporeal order? The human intellect has evolved with the brain from earlier hominid origins.
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Maybe it did evolve, but, I really don’t see any indications in the animal kingdom that shows a progression of refined intellect.

You either got it or ya don’t
 
Benadam said:
Maybe it did evolve, but, I really don’t see any indications in the animal kingdom that shows a progression of refined intellect.You either got it or ya don’t
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Not true. Primates have evolved worlds beyond earthworms in reasoning ability. The five million years since the divergence of the of Homo sapiens and the great apes from our common ancestor gave us an enormous advantage over them in bra(name removed by moderator)ower, but intellect is by no means unique to humans.
 
StAnastasia said:
Not true. Primates have evolved worlds beyond earthworms in reasoning ability. The five million years since the divergence of the of Homo sapiens and the great apes from our common ancestor gave us an enormous advantage over them in bra(name removed by moderator)ower, but intellect is by no means unique to humans.
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I think an agreed definition of intellect is required for this topic. I use the definition as applied to the faculty that enables the human mind to apprehend eternal realities. It has a wider usage but generally limited to the behaviors that distinguish humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. A faculty that is distinguished in this way is appropriate to understand behavior of such distinction.

I don’t believe this is on topic and I don’t want to continue derailing this thread.
 
Benadam said:
I use the definition as applied to the faculty that enables the human mind to apprehend eternal realities. It has a wider usage but generally limited to the behaviors that distinguish humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. A faculty that is distinguished in this way is appropriate to understand behavior of such distinction.
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I’m happy with that definition, and it is perfectly compatible with evolution. Back to sinful dinosaurs!
 
Benadam said:
Well then, I would suggest that in some mysterious way there is a dinosaur in each one of us!😃
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Yes, in that we share our genetic heritage with the dinosaurs, and part of our brain is reptilian.
 
StAnastasia said:
Yes, in that we share our genetic heritage with the dinosaurs, and part of our brain is reptilian.
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I’ve been thinking on this line of thought . It makes me feel good about the dinasaurs and myself because they are awesome creatures.
In some way sacrifice for an elevation of the state of life is involved. The reptilian means of living was the fruit of the experience of living matter. It was the pinnacle of success in terms of living a sense of being that is aware and able to continue living. That fruit seems to be what our human bodies enjoy. It means in us since what they have is the ground that allows us to be living in a whole different realm of awareness.manoman gotta go gonna be late…ttfn
 
severntofall said:
Gordon, I urge you to have the courage to admit to your children that Adam and Eve never really existed; perhaps they were allegories, perhaps total lies. Remind your children that the tale of Adam and Eve was written around 1400BC by a man who quite frankly both borrowed heavily from other religions and made things up when creating the history of the pre-1400BC Jewish faith.
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LOL… so what might your religion be called? It helps us all better understand where you might be coming from.

SD
 
severntofall said:
Gordon, I urge you to have the courage to admit to your children that Adam and Eve never really existed; perhaps they were allegories, perhaps total lies. Remind your children that the tale of Adam and Eve was written around 1400BC by a man who quite frankly both borrowed heavily from other religions and made things up when creating the history of the pre-1400BC Jewish faith.
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Severntofall, to say that Genesis is written in symbolic language is not to say that the story of Adam and Eve is a “total lie.” The Hebrew authors borrowed stories from their Ancient Near Eastern neighbors, but were inspired to interpret these in unique theological ways.

StAnastasia
 
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