The Death Penalty, Catholicism, And Super-Max

[Caveman]

catholic-caveman.blogspot.com

I had an interesting discussion with a good friend the other day concerning the death penalty. Anyone who’s ever read what I’ve posted in the past, knows exactly where I stand on the DP. And my friend, he’s against it BIG TIME. But that’s OK. He’s still my goomba.

For those of you who aren’t aware, I follow the official teaching of The Church. I’m in favor in cases of extreme gravity and it should only be used rarely. You know… like those misunderstood souls who kidnap, rape, sodomize, and sexually torture little children to death.

But anyhow, my friend pointed out 2267 of the Catechism which states in part; “Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”

And like many of the anti-DP persuasion, he pointed out the so-called “Super-Max” prisons. The gist of his argument was essentially that said offenders can be put away for life and they will no longer pose a threat to the public at large. And all without the shedding of blood.

Like many in the anti-DP crowd, they specifically site “… given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime…” And by the State’s disposal, Super-Max is exactly what they mean.

Here in the United States (as well as Canada, Western Europe, Australia, Japan, etc, etc) we absolutely have the means of constructing these Super-Max facilities. But what about the 3d World nations? Their idea of Super-Max is a double-mud-reinforced mud hut.

By the anti-DP crowd’s own rationale, capital offenders in the 3d World should be put to death, right? After all, what reliable version of Super-Max is there in Burkina Faso, Myanmar, or Bolivia?

 

[vampares]

like those misunderstood souls who kidnap, rape, sodomize, and sexually torture little children to death.

These are meant to be signs and wonders sometimes. You can do what you want with them but they are the death penalty or whatever it is GF happens to do. It is disproportionate and not negotiable.

 

[Caveman]

You can do what you want with them but they are the death penalty or whatever it is GF happens to do. It is disproportionate and not negotiable.

I’m sorry… I don’t understand your reply.

 

[mchale]

catholic-caveman.blogspot.com

Here in the United States (as well as Canada, Western Europe, Australia, Japan, etc, etc) we absolutely have the means of constructing these Super-Max facilities. But what about the 3d World nations? Their idea of Super-Max is a double-mud-reinforced mud hut.

Most third world countries are capable of incarcerating prisoners for the long term. Even prior to the 20th century, it was reasonably possible to incarcerate someone and be reasonably sure that they would serve their full sentence. Tools like Super-Max generally are not meant to protect society from the incarcerated, but rather to protect the general prison population from their worst elements.

By the anti-DP crowd’s own rationale, capital offenders in the 3d World should be put to death, right? After all, what reliable version of Super-Max is there in Burkina Faso, Myanmar, or Bolivia?

I certainly hope you are not trying to use Myanmar to bolster your argument about criminal justice. Myanmar is one of the most oppressive regimes in the world.

In any case, as a U.S. citizen the question about whether the death penalty should be legal rests on the situation in the USA, not in some third world country. Ultimately, there are a number of serious problems with the way the Death Penalty is implemented in this country. To begin with time and again, our nation’s law enforcement agencies have been shown to be far from perfect (as any human agency must be). When one contemplates the ultimate penalty for crime, I believe the burden of proof should be much higher than beyond reasonable doubt. Further there is too much evidence that the death penalty is assigned for factors other than the nature of the crime (i.e. where you commit the crime, the race of the victem, the quality of the lawyer you can afford, etc.).

Finally I feel the death penalty is too often invoked as vengance, and not as a way of keeping society safe. That makes me feel very uncomfortable as a Christian.

–
Bill

 

[Caveman]

Most third world countries are capable of incarcerating prisoners for the long term.

I beg to differ. The ability to bust out of your average 3d World prison depends on either; how may packs of cigarettes you can slip a guard, or how much money those on the outside can slip a guard.

I’m not trying to sound flippant, but in all honesty, 3d World prisons are a joke.

I certainly hope you are not trying to use Myanmar to bolster your argument about criminal justice. Myanmar is one of the most oppressive regimes in the world.

“One of the most oppressive” or not is irrelevant. Their prison system is a joke (see above). Also, very few in that particular country are ever sentenced to life. The vast majority of Capital Offenders are executed hours after being found guilty. So I guess my example of Myanmar is a moot point.

Finally I feel the death penalty is too often invoked as vengance, and not as a way of keeping society safe. That makes me feel very uncomfortable as a Christian.

Bill

Vengance? Nahhh… it’s a question of Justice. That’s why The Church authorizes the DP only in cases of extreme gravity and only to be used rarely.

But Bill, I think the real question here is this — can I, as a faithful Catholic, adhere to the implimentation of the DP as The Church defines such, without me having the stain of sin on my immortal soul?

 

[mchale]

I beg to differ. The ability to bust out of your average 3d World prison depends on either; how may packs of cigarettes you can slip a guard, or how much money those on the outside can slip a guard.

I’m not trying to sound flippant, but in all honesty, 3d World prisons are a joke.

Just curious, where do you get your information? I have no doubt that there is serious corruption in prisons, both in the third world and in America, but that is quite different than showing that a murder can get out of prison simply by slipping the guards some cigerattes and money.

And even if that so, what is to stop a criminal from slipping the guards the money before their date of execution?

In any case, I don’t find corruption to be a compelling counter argument. Quite the contrary, do we really want to empower a corrupt government with the power of life and death?

“One of the most oppressive” or not is irrelevant. Their prison system is a joke (see above). Also, very few in that particular country are ever sentenced to life. The vast majority of Capital Offenders are executed hours after being found guilty. So I guess my example of Myanmar is a moot point.

To begin with, you need to show that escape is the routine in Myanmar. In addition, your very argument shows that the Death Penalty is not carried out in a manner consistent with justice. If conviction to death penalty is measured in hours, there is no realistic chance to appeal and therefore a greatly increased chance of people wrongly condemned to death.

Vengance? Nahhh… it’s a question of Justice. That’s why The Church authorizes the DP only in cases of extreme gravity and only to be used rarely.

I am not sure Justice can ever be restored in this life for the crimes that generally merit the death penalty. Further, I have seen too many people who seem to take satisfaction in the death of condemned criminal. To me that smells of vengence not justice. If the Death Penalty was really applied for the sake of Justice, the only proper emotion, I think would be great regret at the necessity of it, not satisfaction in the death of another.

But Bill, I think the real question here is this — can I, as a faithful Catholic, adhere to the implimentation of the DP as The Church defines such, without me having the stain of sin on my immortal soul?

I think the point is that in the United States, it is unlikely that the Death Penalty can be applied in a manner that is consistent with the teaching of the Church. The Church’s position is that the Death Penalty should be the last resort as a method of protecting society. In the United States, there are very effective means of protecting society without resorting to the death penalty.

–
Bill

 

[Caveman]

Just curious, where do you get your information? I have no doubt that there is serious corruption in prisons, both in the third world and in America, but that is quite different than showing that a murder can get out of prison simply by slipping the guards some cigerattes and money.

My information is not only from a lifetime of study and research, but also from 1st hand observation of what life is like in your average 3d World country, due to my 20 years in the Marine Corps. I’ve been to more than one 3d World nation, and I can tell you, many aspects of their societies are anywhere from decades to centuries behind the US. And that applies to their penal system. So yes, the “cigarette” analogy most certainly does apply.

Also, sadly… most Americans are under the misconception that the rest of the world is “just like us”. If your average American went to Myanmar, Bolivia, etc, etc… they would be absolutly stunned. It’s FAR, FAR worse than a 30 second Sally Struthers *Feed The Children *commercial.

And even if that so, what is to stop a criminal from slipping the guards the money before their date of execution?

My point exactly

I

n any case, I don’t find corruption to be a compelling counter argument. Quite the contrary, do we really want to empower a corrupt government with the power of life and death?

Corruption is exactly one of the compelling arguments. If Super-Max is the answer that so many of the anti-DP crowd falls back on, then common sense dictates that the corruption that is so rife in the 3d World dictates that their Penal System is a failure… and again by their own logic… the DP is the correct course of action for any given Capital Offender.

To begin with, you need to show that escape is the routine in Myanmar. In addition, your very argument shows that the Death Penalty is not carried out in a manner consistent with justice. If conviction to death penalty is measured in hours, there is no realistic chance to appeal and therefore a greatly increased chance of people wrongly condemned to death.

Fair enough, Bill. I chose Myanmar out of a hat as representative of your average corrupt 3d World nation. If you would like for me to spend hours and hours of my time illustrating that said nations prisons are a joke… I could do that, but I won’t. If you like, I’ll scratch Myanmar as a specific and from now on, I’ll ref to The Generic Corrupt 3d World Counrty. And in all fairness, Myanmar isn’t a good example for my argument, due to them being so absolutely corrupt. Good point, Bill.

I am not sure Justice can ever be restored in this life for the crimes that generally merit the death penalty.

That’s simply your opinion, but hey… resonable men can disagree.

Further, I have seen too many people who seem to take satisfaction in the death of condemned criminal. To me that smells of vengence not justice. If the Death Penalty was really applied for the sake of Justice, the only proper emotion, I think would be great regret at the necessity of it, not satisfaction in the death of another.

Individual emotion is irrelavant. If justice has been meted out, than justice has been meted out. And in all fairness, Bill, we mere humans are emotional beings. I ask you to read up some on the emotions shown by Marc Klaas (remember Polly Klaas?) during the trial of the scum who kidnapped, raped, sodomized and then sexually tortured his 12 year old daughter to death with a hunting knife and a pair of vice grips. Who wouldn’t/couldn’t show emotion?

I think the point is that in the United States, it is unlikely that the Death Penalty can be applied in a manner that is consistent with the teaching of the Church. The Church’s position is that the Death Penalty should be the last resort as a method of protecting society. In the United States, there are very effective means of protecting society without resorting to the death penalty.

Bill, I didn’t ask “in the United States”. Official Church Teaching should vary due to political borders. If it does, then we run the risk of falling into “…but some animals are more equal than others” as was so well pointed out in Animal Farm.

But anyhow, allow me to reinterate…the real question here is this — can I, as a faithful Catholic, adhere to the implimentation of the DP as The Church defines such, without me having the stain of sin on my immortal soul?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

catholic-caveman.blogspot.com

I had an interesting discussion with a good friend the other day concerning the death penalty. Anyone who’s ever read what I’ve posted in the past, knows exactly where I stand on the DP. And my friend, he’s against it BIG TIME. But that’s OK. He’s still my goomba.

For those of you who aren’t aware, I follow the official teaching of The Church. I’m in favor in cases of extreme gravity and it should only be used rarely. You know… like those misunderstood souls who kidnap, rape, sodomize, and sexually torture little children to death.

But anyhow, my friend pointed out 2267 of the Catechism which states in part; “Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender ‘today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.’”

And like many of the anti-DP persuasion, he pointed out the so-called “Super-Max” prisons. The gist of his argument was essentially that said offenders can be put away for life and they will no longer pose a threat to the public at large. And all without the shedding of blood.

Like many in the anti-DP crowd, they specifically site “… given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime…” And by the State’s disposal, Super-Max is exactly what they mean.

Here in the United States (as well as Canada, Western Europe, Australia, Japan, etc, etc) we absolutely have the means of constructing these Super-Max facilities. But what about the 3d World nations? Their idea of Super-Max is a double-mud-reinforced mud hut.

By the anti-DP crowd’s own rationale, capital offenders in the 3d World should be put to death, right? After all, what reliable version of Super-Max is there in Burkina Faso, Myanmar, or Bolivia?

Have you seen the shows on cable TV about these Super-Max prisons?

While yes, the public at large is “protected” in most cases from these individuals (there is some evidence of gang members still running their gangs from inside) they do not effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it as there are gangs within them and they victimize each other up to killing each other. They also victimize the guards.

They are in no way rendered “inoffensive”.

 

[mchale]

Sorry, had to snip some to get the post in.

My information is not only from a lifetime of study and research, but also from 1st hand observation of what life is like in your average 3d World country, … I’ve been to more than one 3d World nation, and I can tell you, many aspects of their societies are anywhere from decades to centuries behind the US. And that applies to their penal system. So yes, the “cigarette” analogy most certainly does apply.

With respect, your argument here basically comes down to one of your questionable authority on the matter. Having spent more than a little time being a researcher, I have an inherent suspicion in arguments from authority. You have made definite claims, and if you are going to want me to accept them, I am going to require documentation of those claimes (for example, statistics regarding how many convicts who should still be incarcerated are rearrested for other crimes).

Also, sadly… most Americans are under the misconception that the rest of the world is “just like us”.

I am under no illustion that those countries are anything like the United States. That being said, the mere simple fact that the countries are different, and far poorer than the United States hardly shows that the Death Penalty is the only effective way to protect the society.

Corruption is exactly one of the compelling arguments. If Super-Max is the answer that so many of the anti-DP crowd falls back on, then common sense dictates that the corruption that is so rife in the 3d World dictates that their Penal System is a failure… and again by their own logic… the DP is the correct course of action for any given Capital Offender.

On the contrary, the corruption in the Legal systems in those countries makes the argument for the Death Penalty that much shakier. The Death Penalty, being the ultimate punishment needs to reserved when there is no doubt about the verdict. The corruption in those systems leaves serious questions regarding whether the accused can get a fair trial. Without a fair trial the death penalty becomes little more than state sponsored murder.

Fair enough, Bill. … If you would like for me to spend hours and hours of my time illustrating that said nations prisons are a joke… I could do that, but I won’t. If you like, I’ll scratch Myanmar as a specific and from now on, I’ll ref to The Generic Corrupt 3d World Counrty. And in all fairness, Myanmar isn’t a good example for my argument, due to them being so absolutely corrupt.

You are making claims that third world countries are incapable of indefinitely incarcerating murderers and other serious offenders. I definitely require documentation of the fact. I could care less about the corruption of the rest of the system, you need to demonstrate the inability of those states to hold prisoners. If you won’t then your case comes down to nothing more than unsupported claims.

Individual emotion is irrelavant. If justice has been meted out, than justice has been meted out. And in all fairness, Bill, we mere humans are emotional beings. I ask you to read up some on the emotions shown by Marc Klaas (remember Polly Klaas?) during the trial of the scum who kidnapped, raped, sodomized and then sexually tortured his 12 year old daughter to death with a hunting knife and a pair of vice grips. Who wouldn’t/couldn’t show emotion?

Individual emotion is not irrelevant if it clouds the judgement of the person or the people determining guilt and punishment. There are reasons why justice is given to the state and not to the individuals wronged. I grant that it is probably impossible to remove emotion completely from the process, but that doesn’t mean that emotion should be the driving force of the process. If the death penalty is chosen to give satisfaction to the victem, their family or society, then we are no longer persuing justice but vengence.

Bill, I didn’t ask “in the United States”. Official Church Teaching should vary due to political borders. If it does, then we run the risk of falling into “…but some animals are more equal than others”…

Church Teaching doesn’t vary due to political borders, but the quality of government, and the ability to safely incarcerate criminals (by your own argument) does. As a result, one can probably argue that the death penalty is still necessary to protect society in some countries, but not in the United States and therefore is inconsistent with the Church’s teaching when used in the United States.

But anyhow, allow me to reinterate…the real question here is this — can I, as a faithful Catholic, adhere to the implimentation of the DP as The Church defines such, without me having the stain of sin on my immortal soul?

That is ultimately for God to decide. For my part, I don’t believe it is consistent with Church teaching to support the Death Penalty in the United States. Other countries I would have to take on a case by case basis.

–
Bill

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That is ultimately for God to decide. For my part, I don’t believe it is consistent with Church teaching to support the Death Penalty in the United States. Other countries I would have to take on a case by case basis.

Bill,
I know your last reply was to respond to Caveman’s post to you (which I think you did a great job at doing) but what about my last post?

I have not stated where I stand on the issue of the Death Penalty and I do not think I have to in this discussion.

What about the fact that some in prison prey upon other inmates and guards, what about those who are gang leaders who still influence their gang on the outside?

The official teaching of the Church does leave open the possibility of the Death Penalty.

 

[mchale]

Bill,
I know your last reply was to respond to Caveman’s post to you (which I think you did a great job at doing) but what about my last post?

I have not stated where I stand on the issue of the Death Penalty and I do not think I have to in this discussion.

What about the fact that some in prison prey upon other inmates and guards, what about those who are gang leaders who still influence their gang on the outside?

In the US, prisoners like this are the reason you have Super Max prisons. To isolate those prisoners who are too dangerous to leave in the general population. I guy who spends 23 hours a day alone in his cell, and never has a chance to interact with the other prisoners and only limited contact with the staff are not likely to be a threat to others.

I will grant, that Super Max prisons are decidedly extreme, but then again, so is the death penalty.

The official teaching of the Church does leave open the possibility of the Death Penalty.

Yes, I agree it does leave it open. I think it is fair though to read the specifics of the teaching to imply that the death penalty is a last resort used to protect society. I think the point is that in the United States, it is all but never necessary for the protection of society.

–
Bill

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

In the US, prisoners like this are the reason you have Super Max prisons. To isolate those prisoners who are too dangerous to leave in the general population. I guy who spends 23 hours a day alone in his cell, and never has a chance to interact with the other prisoners and only limited contact with the staff are not likely to be a threat to others.

I will grant, that Super Max prisons are decidedly extreme, but then again, so is the death penalty.

Not every prisonier in a Super Max prison is isolated in this way. Just watch the shows on Cable about Super Max prisons. They still have a general population and they abuse, prey upon, and kill each other there. Usually to get sent into the 23 hours a day setting one must commit a very serious crime while in prison. So those who get it only get it after they continue to commit crimes while in prison.

Yes, I agree it does leave it open. I think it is fair though to read the specifics of the teaching to imply that the death penalty is a last resort used to protect society. I think the point is that in the United States, it is all but never necessary for the protection of society.

Bill, I agree, in most cases the Death Penalty as applied in the States in the US is bad and should not be. But I am not against the Federal Government from having recourse to it when it is deemed necessary.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I beg to differ. The ability to bust out of your average 3d World prison depends on either; how may packs of cigarettes you can slip a guard, or how much money those on the outside can slip a guard.

You can take it a step farther – in another thread I posted a snippit from a training program I did for the US Bureau of Prisons. I was required to use actual incidents for my training examples, and the one I chose was a case where an inmate handed a Corrections Officer a photograph. The photograph showed the Correction Officer’s 6-year old daughter playing in the back yard.

The point of the lesson was that prison was out of control – and from the moment he received that photograph, that Corrections Officer worked for that inmate. How could he not?

Supermax or no supermax, guards can be intimidated, terrorized, or bribed.

 

[mchale]

Not every prisonier in a Super Max prison is isolated in this way. Just watch the shows on Cable about Super Max prisons. They still have a general population and they abuse, prey upon, and kill each other there. Usually to get sent into the 23 hours a day setting one must commit a very serious crime while in prison. So those who get it only get it after they continue to commit crimes while in prison.

Ok, I will grant that, but the point ultimately is that that level of confinement is at that point for protecting the general prison population. Ultimately though, the point is that the general society is fairly effectively protected once the prisoner is behind bars.

Bill, I agree, in most cases the Death Penalty as applied in the States in the US is bad and should not be. But I am not against the Federal Government from having recourse to it when it is deemed necessary.

The question is, what is deemed necessary? The last prisoner, that I know of, that was executed by the Federal Government was Timothy McVeigh. For all the evil he did, I saw little point in executing. He was safely behind bars and there was very little chance he would have ever been able to get out of prison.

–
Bill

 

[mchale]

You can take it a step farther – in another thread I posted a snippit from a training program I did for the US Bureau of Prisons. I was required to use actual incidents for my training examples, and the one I chose was a case where an inmate handed a Corrections Officer a photograph. The photograph showed the Correction Officer’s 6-year old daughter playing in the back yard.

The point of the lesson was that prison was out of control – and from the moment he received that photograph, that Corrections Officer worked for that inmate. How could he not?

Supermax or no supermax, guards can be intimidated, terrorized, or bribed.

Yes, no prison is going to be perfect, but ultimately, if we demand perfection as the alternative to the death penalty, we are going to have ratchet up the use of the death penalty to a level that I doubt our society would be willing to stomach. After all, alot of the bribes and intimidation that goes on in prisons are performed by people who were convicted of crimes where capital punishment isn’t even an option (And wouldn’t be without a constitutional amendment).

–
Bill

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, no prison is going to be perfect, but ultimately, if we demand perfection as the alternative to the death penalty, we are going to have ratchet up the use of the death penalty to a level that I doubt our society would be willing to stomach. After all, alot of the bribes and intimidation that goes on in prisons are performed by people who were convicted of crimes where capital punishment isn’t even an option (And wouldn’t be without a constitutional amendment).

–
Bill

So how many six-year old children are you willing to sacrifice in pursuit of your perfect prison?

 

[mchale]

So how many six-year old children are you willing to sacrifice in pursuit of your perfect prison?

Its not a question of sacrificing children. Ultimately, how many of the prisoners who resort to that sort of intimidation that you have referenced were actually convicted of capital crimes in the first place? A drug dealer who was convicted of non-violent crimes cannot be sentenced to death. The constitutional standard that the courts currently follow is very clear on that point. Yet such a drug dealer might well resort to intimidation to get special treatment or to keep his “buisness” running while he is on the inside.

In fact, I would be willing to bet, that most of the people who do end up on death row are not the sorts who have the orginization on the outside to resort to that level of intimidation. Sure some do, but I except that the intimidation problem mentioned is far more common outside death row.

My question to you is, how low do you want to lower the standard where the death penalty is applied? Should it include drug dealing? How about theft? How many people will we have to put to death every year before we determine that society is safe?

–
Bill

 

[vern_humphrey]

Its not a question of sacrificing children.

It **is **a question of sacrificing children. The purpose of the criminal justice system is to protect society. When we fail to do that, we have failed as a society.

And when we understand how prisons are often run by the inmates, for their criminal purposes, then we understand that we must have some way of dealing with the most vicious inmates. Another life sentence stacked on top of several previous life sentences has no effect on such depraved criminals.

Ultimately, how many of the prisoners who resort to that sort of intimidation that you have referenced were actually convicted of capital crimes in the first place? A drug dealer who was convicted of non-violent crimes cannot be sentenced to death. The constitutional standard that the courts currently follow is very clear on that point. Yet such a drug dealer might well resort to intimidation to get special treatment or to keep his “buisness” running while he is on the inside.

And when he does, he must understand that should he carry out his threat, he will die for it.

In fact, I would be willing to bet, that most of the people who do end up on death row are not the sorts who have the orginization on the outside to resort to that level of intimidation.

I like the phrase, “I would be willing to bet” You realize you are betting other people’s lives?

Sure some do, but I except that the intimidation problem mentioned is far more common outside death row.

Which is neither here nor there – an inmate who kills a fellow inmate, a Corrections Officer, or a member of a Corrections Officer’s family must face something more than just another life sentence.

My question to you is, how low do you want to lower the standard where the death penalty is applied? Should it include drug dealing? How about theft? How many people will we have to put to death every year before we determine that society is safe?

Ah, the old “no one can judge” argument.

Those who kill repeatedly, and those who kill police officers, judges, court officials, Corrections Officers, or their families must face something more than just another life sentence.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ok, I will grant that, but the point ultimately is that that level of confinement is at that point for protecting the general prison population. Ultimately though, the point is that the general society is fairly effectively protected once the prisoner is behind bars.

Ah, but here is the rub.

The Church says in the Catechism (paragraph 2267), by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm. See it says that they are incapable of doing harm. No where does it say that they are only incapable of doing harm to general society. Those in prison deserve to be protected too. And then there is the fact that mob and gang members still have control of their groups outside of prison.

You have not convinced me yet.

The question is, what is deemed necessary? The last prisoner, that I know of, that was executed by the Federal Government was Timothy McVeigh. For all the evil he did, I saw little point in executing. He was safely behind bars and there was very little chance he would have ever been able to get out of prison.

You might not agree but I still think the State should retain the right to recourse to this penalty and the Church does not seem to be against that.

 

[mchale]

It **is **a question of sacrificing children. The purpose of the criminal justice system is to protect society. When we fail to do that, we have failed as a society.

I am not arguing against that. I do believe that prisons have done a reasonably effective job of isolating prisoners from the general population. The effects that those prisoners have on the outside are true influence, and frankly those who would kill or commit other crimes based on what someone on the inside tells them would likely commit crimes and kill anyway.

And when we understand how prisons are often run by the inmates, for their criminal purposes, then we understand that we must have some way of dealing with the most vicious inmates. Another life sentence stacked on top of several previous life sentences has no effect on such depraved criminals.

Two points here.

1. If prisons are run by the inmates, then we need to take control of the prisons back. I doubt there are few prison officials who would claim that their prison couldn’t use better facilities and more guards. We can’t really argue that we can’t control the prisons if we are not willing to at least try.
2. There is another level, its called essentially a life in solitary confinement. When the criminal has virtually no contact with other prisoners or guards, there is little chance that they are able to have any impact on other prisoners or the outside world.

And when he does, he must understand that should he carry out his threat, he will die for it.

With respect, I think the very nature of the fact that these people are in prisons indicate that they are incapable of believing that they will be held accountable for their actions (or don’t care). Such men I suspect would not find the prospect of a potential death penalty to be much of a deterence.

I like the phrase, “I would be willing to bet” You realize you are betting other people’s lives?

I never said I was willing to bet lives. I used the term in reference to the fact that the sorts of criminals who end up on death row are more likely to be those who are not part of orginizations that would give them the power to impact those on the outside.

Personally, I would have no problem with sentencing murders to solitary confinement and deny them the right to contact with the outside world other than very limited monitored visits and access to priests and other religious ministers. Such means would probably make them less potentially harmless than current prisoners on death row.

Which is neither here nor there – an inmate who kills a fellow inmate, a Corrections Officer, or a member of a Corrections Officer’s family must face something more than just another life sentence.

See above. In any case, the number of Corrections officers killed every year averages a little over 7 a year (for the period 1995-2005). There are alot more people sentenced to death every year than that. Also, at least some of those deaths could have been prevented with a larger number of prison guards. As for how many families of corrections officers have been killed? Well I would like to see some concrete numbers before I comment.

Ah, the old “no one can judge” argument.

Those who kill repeatedly, and those who kill police officers, judges, court officials, Corrections Officers, or their families must face something more than just another life sentence.

Well the presumption here is 1, they already have a life sentence. 2. that all life sentences are exactly alike. I am sure that there is quite a difference from being in a general maximum security prison and spending the rest of your natural life in virtual solitary confinement where you have essentially zero chance to harm others on the outside.

–
Bill