The death penalty is justified

[RomanCrusader]

While the question of whether the death penalty deters crime or not has gone on for a long time, fairly new studies show that the death penalty is indeed a deterrent:

comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/06/10/686081.html

Now, if the death penalty stops murders, then we have a moral obligation to support it. After all, by banning capital punishment we would be sentencing innocents to death. With mandatory modern DNA evidence the idea that we could sentence an innocent to death is seemingly close to impossible.

While some mild statements critical of capital punishment have come out of the Church as of late, the statements and actions of the Church in the past speak strongly in favor of its usage. I hardly think that Blessed Pope Urban II, who rallied Europe to crush the Seljuk hordes, would utter a word against capital punishment.

I think all of this opposition to the death penalty is a waste of time and would be better spent fighting against the abortion holocaust. While the Catholics who oppose capital punishment and fight against it truly have good and holy intentions, I feel the end result of their efforts would not be good. The innocent children in the womb deserve our resources, not rapists and murderers.

I say that as long as we have solid DNA evidence, let the murderers, rapists, and pedophiles be executed.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

I am not sure where I stand on this issue, but is there evidence to say that in recent times, virtually no one is incorrectly executed? I find this to be a far fetched claim, although if you can come up with the evidence, I am willing to concede it.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Does the end (preventing murder) justify the means (murder)?

 

[RomanCrusader]

Does the end (preventing murder) justify the means (murder)?

I do not consider capital punishment murder.

 

[Sheeniac]

Jesus had the chance (more than once) to condemn the death penalty, and he didn’t. There is more than prevention at stake, or deterrance - it is restoring justice (not revenge). Society is not an individual, and has different responsibilities and powers.

That said, my main concern with the DP is that it removes the chance for change and repentance. Moses was a murder, and God transformed him.

But, given that it is not intrinsically evil, I am in favor of its legality.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I do not consider capital punishment murder.

Very well- how is it not murder?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Very well- how is it not murder?

The Church has not condemned it as murder, and has in fact allowed it.

Murder : The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

By definition, capital punishment is not unlawful. Therefore capital punishment is not murder.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

The Church has not condemned it as murder, and has in fact allowed it.

To my knowledge, the Church has allowed it under certain circumstances. I suppose now we must define murder. You first?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

To my knowledge, the Church has allowed it under certain circumstances. I suppose now we must define murder. You first?

Edited my previous post to include definition.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

The Church has not condemned it as murder, and has in fact allowed it.

By definition, capital punishment is not unlawful. Therefore capital punishment is not murder.

So with no law, there is no such thing as murder?

 

[RomanCrusader]

So with no law, there is no such thing as murder?

With God there is always law, and Gods law does not forbid capital punishment.

 

[RomanCrusader]

Jesus had the chance (more than once) to condemn the death penalty, and he didn’t. There is more than prevention at stake, or deterrance - it is restoring justice (not revenge). Society is not an individual, and has different responsibilities and powers.

I agree. The death penalty is true justice and I can honestly say that if someone harmed my family than I would absolutely demand that the criminal to be executed.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

So with no law, there is no such thing as murder?

There is always God’s law. In the Old Testament, we find that the law required that certain criminals be punished by death. God would not command anyone to sin, and since murder is sin, capital punishment is not murder.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

With God there is always law, and Gods law does not forbid capital punishment.

I was addressing Miles definition:

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

From this it would follow that if it is not illegal, it is not immoral. If it is done within the law, then it is moral as well. I would like to see this circular logic explained, or else see a more theological definition of murder.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

From this it would follow that if it is not illegal, it is not immoral. If it is done within the law, then it is moral as well. I would like to see this circular logic explained, or else see a more theological definition of murder.

I just provided it. Furthermore, Crusader’s logic is not circular.

Murder is unlawful (forbidden by law)
God’s law does not forbid capital punishment
Therefore, capital punishment is not murder.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I just provided it. Furthermore, Crusader’s logic is not circular.

Murder is unlawful (forbidden by law)
God’s law does not forbid capital punishment
Therefore, capital punishment is not murder.

:doh2:

Where is this definition?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

:doh2:

Where is this definition?

…You asked me to define murder and I said unlawful premeditated killing. Crusader took this definition and constructed an argument, and you accused him of using circularity. I just proved that his argument is not circular because it does not follow a A->B, B->A form.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

…You asked me to define murder and I said unlawful premeditated killing. Crusader took this definition and constructed an argument, and you accused him of using circularity. I just proved that his argument is not circular because it does not follow a A->B, B->A form.

I asked for a theological definition of murder. May I have it or not?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

I asked for a theological definition of murder. May I have it or not?

From this it would follow that if it is not illegal, it is not immoral. If it is done within the law, then it is moral as well. I would like to see this circular logic explained, or else see a more theological definition of murder.

You offered me a choice. I chose to explain the “circular logic” by proving that it is not circular. You can now demand that I instead choose the other option, but do not pretend that I ignored your request. You asked me to either explain the reasoning or provide a theological definition and I chose the former.

Furthermore, a theological definition is not required. God’s law in the Old Testament commands capital punishment, so clearly it cannot be murder.

 

[Hastrman]

Murder is the killing of those whose actions do not warrant death, i.e. the innocent.

Capital punishment is the killing of those whose actions do warrant death, i.e. the guilty.

Where things get fishy is, we none of us deserve to live, and it can be argued we deserve to die (original sin). Where, then, do we get the right to kill certain transgressors?

Basically, a crime must mean:

1. The community cannot suffer the perpetrator to live among them.
   2 It would be wrong force his presence on others (no exile).
2. It would also be wrong force the community’s members to feed and care for one whom they cannot abide among them (no imprisonment).

Only if a crime meets these criteria do you have the right to execute the perpetrator, and whether or not you could imprison the person is immaterial to the question–it is violence to *force *people, by the taxation power of the government, to feed and tend their mortal enemies, i.e. people who victimize them by heinous crimes.

I would add, also, that the deterrent value of the death penalty is also immaterial to the question, and makes a human being into a means to an end.