The deaths of the Egyptian fristborns

[Cristian_B]

I was recently talking to an atheist about the plagues and the Jews in Egypt. We reached the part of the deaths of the firstborns and I told him, that as the bible says:

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. -Exodus 12:12

That it was their punishment for idolatry, adultery, etc. Then he told me:

…]
But the firstborns did not do anything. Killing every firstborn logically means He ordered the death of innocent infants. If He were just, He’d have killed the guilty, not their kids who didn’t do anything. All of that just to get the Jews to trust Him…yet, He could have just told them. He could have appeared as a colossal golem and introduced himself as God, then told them of his power. This circumstance does not warrant killing babies.

What should I tell him?

 

[SunnaB16]

The firstborns also included adults, not just infants…ANYBODY who happened to be a
firstborn, regardless of age.

 

[puzzleannie]

the Pharaoh called on the gods of Egypt when he killed the Hebrew children, and read earlier in his dialogs with Moses, when he was warned what would happen if he continued to defy God, and himself chose the punishment that would be inflicted. you might get more support from very knowledgeable people on the scripture forum, and I recall a rather recent thread on this topic

 

[SunnaB16]

It wasn`t just firstborn infants who were killed; it was every firstborn, regardless of age.
“Desperate times call for…”

It was the Egyptians who needed to have the truth rammed into them, not the Israelites.
How many plagues etc were there?

As far as appearing as some almighty giant goes, that seems to be a common athiest
argument. God wants us to love Him freely - using our free will, not by coersion. Were not ants or robots. Athiests just dont get it; free will is a precious gift. That aspect of
athiesm (among other aspects) disturbs me a lot.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’m not sure telling him anything will help. It’s disturbing, but not the only case in the bible where God sees it in his wisdom that it be best some children and babies end up dead.
I suggest switching topics quickly.

 

[coin]

I am not sure Bible Stories = History. For me, Bible Stories are lessons. It is more important to me that God asked US to make distinguish between who gets killed and who is spared. NEVER could I believe that our Triune God…Unconditional Loving Triune God…would EVER kill. I hold that the lesson is about OUR need to punish. OUR need to take revenge. WE are the ones to wash the threshold with lambs blood. Imagine if we washed the threshold of EVERYONE’S house in Egypt at that time…NO ONE would’ve been killed. Suppose God doesn’t distinguish between one person and another…Imagine how right, if you will, we’d be if we turned the other cheek. Imagine how right, if you will, we’d be if we offered forgiveness “for they know not what they do.” Kinda puts the whole “chosen people” ~ whether it be the tribes of Abraham or Catholics or Muslims or Hindus or Buddhists or Lutherans or Anglicans ~ into perspective for me. Sometimes WE need to feel special. Sometimes WE need to feel others are “less than.”
Peace,
Coin
godslovesong.blogspot.com**

 

[RSD]

Keep in mind that “killing” for God is not the same as it is for us. There are several important considerations, but here is an easy one to grasp. If we kill a person, not only are we breaking God’s law, but we are also removing that person from our world. (As Catholics we do believe in the communion of the saints, so we can continue to have a good relationship with someone after they have died, but of course if someone was a murderer, they would have to do some very serious repenting before they could become part of the communion of saints.) If God kills someone, He is not breaking His law, which is of course different for Him than it is for us, but He is also bringing that person closer to Him, not sending that person away. The parents will grieve for their loss, but not the one who dies.

Everybody dies. All people, firstborn sons, grandparents, mothers, daughters, everybody. When and how they die God gets to decide. If a person commits a murder, they have taken the divine right of God to decide when that person dies, and that is wrong of them. If God “kills” a person, He did no wrong.

We can never say, with any sense at all, that for God to decide the time and manner of a person’s death is contrary to His will.

Remember we only exist at all because God in His infinite love holds us in the palm of His hand. He does need to “kill” by doing something to a person, no stabbing or shooting, or poison. All He needs to do is to stop keeping them alive.

 

[kimmielittle]

I was recently talking to an atheist about the plagues and the Jews in Egypt. We reached the part of the deaths of the firstborns and I told him, that as the bible says:

That it was their punishment for idolatry, adultery, etc. Then he told me:

What should I tell him?

Hiyas

The problem I have with Atheists is: They try to rationalize God’s actions to their own limited abilities of comprehension. They do not acknowledge man’s ineptness at comprehending the mind of God.

This is why we get these type of answers from Atheists:

But the firstborns did not do anything. Killing every firstborn logically means He ordered the death of innocent infants. If He were just, He’d have killed the guilty, not their kids who didn’t do anything. All of that just to get the Jews to trust Him…yet, He could have just told them. He could have appeared as a colossal golem and introduced himself as God, then told them of his power. This circumstance does not warrant killing babies.

In their mind, it doesn’t warrant…and this seems acceptable to most of us…because we are judging / comprehending the mind / Will of God…from a mortals perspective.

Logic…says if we knew the Mind and Will of God…We would be God.

So his argument, logically, fails muster.

We can only ‘reason’ God’s will by what He allows us to know of His will…not from a mortals perspective. God is far from simple or definable…

We are simple and can ONLY “reason” what WE comprehend.

As always, just my thoughts

 

[Julian0404]

I was recently talking to an atheist about the plagues and the Jews in Egypt. We reached the part of the deaths of the firstborns and I told him, that as the bible says:

That it was their punishment for idolatry, adultery, etc. Then he told me:

What should I tell him?

Tell him: You cannot frame or describe or desire God to act as a “man” and still have God.
The justice this person seeks, is the justice of “mans court” not from Gods supreme knowledge. He is comfortable in NOT addressing the very presence of God by always addressing God as a man. If God acted more as a man, then I as an atheist could be more comfortable in believing in him, as he believes in the Supreme Courts legality to murder the innocent through abortion.

You ask him:
Does abortion offend you?
If he says yes, then he is truly not atheistic, for if there is not God, there is no absolute good, and all things are relative and therefore abortion is of no consquences. So, if he says’ yes, then you need to probe as from where is the consequences he recoginzes in the killing of innocents in abortion coming from? From man’s law or God’s. And if “man’s law” - be sure to inform him, that the law on murder, in man’s courts is traceable back to God’s commandment - Thou Shalt Not Kill. So, in fact, he is recognizing God’s law.

Then you inform him:
God’s law commands not only “man’s law” but it likewise directs all the relationships, activities, interactions of all the molecules and atoms of all things from creation through life and death. God alone creates life and God alone takes life. As all is His.

Of course he will argue with you and deny such a thing, but keep going back to the fact that he acknowledged that abortion disturbed him, and therefore in acknowledging that he recognized a higher level of “justice” than his prescribed faith of atheism allows. For if he is upset at abortion, he is upset at “mans laws”, which forces him to hold that “mans laws” must be wrong if it upsets him. And indeed they are wrong, for they circumvent God’s law’s of Thou Shall Not Kill.

And if he says, “no, abortion does not bother me”, then he is a hyprocrite, as then why should he declare God unjust for doing what “mans justice” declares is legal ?

If he declares that abortion does not bother him, and he still holds to God being unjust, you have such a selfish person that you need to turn him over to the Holy Spirit and pray that he will find himself one day on the Damascus Road.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

!. As the author of life, God can take it when he so chooses.
2. Taking many of the firstborn, may have been an act of mercy in that it could have been the only way any of them could have been saved. Remember, this is the Old Testament
3. Through Divine Mercy, we learn that God desires mercy, not justice. This would have been a merciful act for those not yet entrenched implacably in paganism. .

 

[StrawberryJam]

their deaths
saved them from paganism?

Ok, now I see why I need to stop reading these topics. Makes me go right back to square one again.

 

[AlbertBall]

for if there is not God, there is no absolute good

define “good”.

 

[bridgeforsale]

What should I tell him?

Most scholars believe the Exodus narrative is outside the range of historical possibility, so you can agree with him (it is a terrible story, but thankfully it’s just a myth).

 

[Oreoracle]

The problem I have with Atheists is: They try to rationalize God’s actions to their own limited abilities of comprehension. They do not acknowledge man’s ineptness at comprehending the mind of God.

We are simple and can ONLY “reason” what WE comprehend.

If you can’t understand God, then why do you worship him? Indeed, how do you know that God meant to reveal anything to you through what you call “revelation?” Maybe you’re projecting your own “inferior” deductive skills onto God’s actions as you claim atheists are doing.

As always, the Christian argumentation is this: Cry “FAITH!” when something good happens and cry “IGNORANCE!” when something bad happens. When something terrible happens, you say we can’t know why, but when something good happens, you claim to magically know why.

 

[Oreoracle]

You ask him:
Does abortion offend you?
If he says yes, then he is truly not atheistic, for if there is not God, there is no absolute good, and all things are relative and therefore abortion is of no consquences. So, if he says’ yes, then you need to probe as from where is the consequences he recoginzes in the killing of innocents in abortion coming from? From man’s law or God’s. And if “man’s law” - be sure to inform him, that the law on murder, in man’s courts is traceable back to God’s commandment - Thou Shalt Not Kill. So, in fact, he is recognizing God’s law.

I’m not sure which career you’d be worse at: ethicist or historian. uch:

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I was recently talking to an atheist about the plagues and the Jews in Egypt. We reached the part of the deaths of the firstborns and I told him, that as the bible says:

That it was their punishment for idolatry, adultery, etc. Then he told me:

What should I tell him?

In Exodus 4:22-23, God said to Moses that Israel was His firstborn son, and so Pharaoh’s punishment for mistreating God’s firstborn son would be the destruction of his own. Tell the atheist that the Pharaoh was quite prepared to condemn the Israeli people, including children, to a life of slavery. They’d already been slaves for a long time, and had been brutally mistreated. Perhaps it was time for some retributive justice.

Secondly God isn’t soft, no matter how much atheists might wish Him to be.

Better steer clear of verse 24 though, where it says the “Lord met him and tried to kill him” (ie. Moses). This verse always strikes me as just plain silly, as though God would have trouble killing someone if He wanted to. Moreover Zipporah’s response makes me wonder about God’s set of rules and regulations. What’s an infinite God of all beauty and intelligence supposed to be doing when He’s deterred by the bloke’s wife touching Moses feet with her son’s foreskin?

 

[StrawberryJam]

In Exodus 4:22-23, God said to Moses that Israel was His firstborn son, and so Pharaoh’s punishment for mistreating God’s firstborn son would be the destruction of his own. Tell the atheist that the Pharaoh was quite prepared to condemn the Israeli people, including children, to a life of slavery. They’d already been slaves for a long time, and had been brutally mistreated. Perhaps it was time for some **retributive justice.**Secondly God isn’t soft, no matter how much atheists might wish Him to be.

Better steer clear of verse 24 though, where it says the “Lord met him and tried to kill him” (ie. Moses). This verse always strikes me as just plain silly, as though God would have trouble killing someone if He wanted to. Moreover Zipporah’s response makes me wonder about God’s set of rules and regulations. What’s an infinite God of all beauty and intelligence supposed to be doing when He’s deterred by the bloke’s wife touching Moses feet with her son’s foreskin?

To babies? Really? I don’t think that would fly for your pope now, if all christians were suddenly slaves for a long time and mistreated. Would he say, Glory be to God! He has just slaughtered all the babies of the ones who enslaved us!! OR would he be rightfully sick to his stomach?

 

[bridgeforsale]

Hiyas

The problem I have with Atheists is: They try to rationalize God’s actions to their own limited abilities of comprehension. They do not acknowledge man’s ineptness at comprehending the mind of God.

This is why we get these type of answers from Atheists:

In their mind, it doesn’t warrant…and this seems acceptable to most of us…because we are judging / comprehending the mind / Will of God…from a mortals perspective.

Logic…says if we knew the Mind and Will of God…We would be God.

So his argument, logically, fails muster.

We can only ‘reason’ God’s will by what He allows us to know of His will…not from a mortals perspective. God is far from simple or definable…

We are simple and can ONLY “reason” what WE comprehend.

As always, just my thoughts

So then the use of logic to show the existence of god is inherently invalid? You have to understand these sort of arguments are inherently flawed, and I don’t believe they serve theism well. If a smart kid is making a choice between believing in a religious claim or not, if the arguments in favor of the religious position are obviously one sided, biased, and logically inconsistent, then he’s far less likely to adopt the religious position. The advocate of skepticism can just sit back and let religion defeat itself.

I admit I’m a skeptic, but I’m willing to allow for the possibilities of a human soul that is conscious and can exist apart from our physical bodies, and a god-like creator of the universe who is intelligent (and I like to think good & even loving). So I’m probably not really an atheist by any reasonable definition of the word. But I also acknowledge the virtual impossibility of god who is omnipotent, like the one described by the bible (and many other religious texts), given what we know about cosmology, evolution, and not to mention the existence of evil. I concede this is a logical conclusion I make using my finite intelligence. However, it seems to me the alternative to relying on my common sense is gullibility (or it at least makes me vunerable to manipulation to an unacceptable degree).

I don’t mind saying that Jesus was a heck of a guy, worthy of admiration in many respects (and whether the myths surrounding his life story are true or not, the virtues he gave us are valuable). Unfortunately, while I can’t be described as an atheist, I’m certainly not a theist either. In fact I don’t concretely believe in anything, but I do think the arguments in favor of a creator and a human soul are provocative. However, asking me to suspend logical thinking is a deal breaker for me, and you’ll find for many other people as well (and an exceedingly larger percentage of people as time goes on).

 

[tonyrey]

The Old Testament has to be interpreted in the light of the teaching of Jesus. If there is any conflict with the concept of a loving Father who cares for His children then a more primitive interpretation must be rejected. Although the authors of the most ancient scriptures were inspired in their recognition that there is only one God they were obviously not eye-witnesses of Creation or subsequent events at the dawn of history. They were fallible human beings whose writings are to be taken literally but they reveal the role of the Jews as the Chosen People. Not only did the prophets foretell the coming of the Messiah hundreds of years before His birth but they also foreshadowed His teaching:

 Your countless sacrifices, what are they to me? says the Lord.

I am sated with whole offerings of rams and the fat of buffaloes;

I have no desire for the blood of bulls, of sheep and of he goats.

Whenever you come to enter my presence — who asked you for this? No more shall you trample my courts.

The offer of your gifts is useless,

the reek of sacrifice is abhorrent to me. (Isaiah 1:11–13)

Jesus Himself said "I desire mercy not sacrifice”, quoting Hosea 6:5–6).

 

[tonyrey]

The Old Testament has to be interpreted in the light of the teaching of Jesus. If there is any conflict with the concept of a loving Father who cares for His children then a more primitive interpretation must be rejected. Although the authors of the most ancient scriptures were inspired in their recognition that there is only one God they were obviously not eye-witnesses of Creation or subsequent events at the dawn of history. They were fallible human beings whose writings are not to be taken literally but they do reveal the role of the Jews as the Chosen People. Not only did the prophets foretell the coming of the Messiah hundreds of years before His birth they also foreshadowed His teaching:

 Your countless sacrifices, what are they to me? says the Lord.

I am sated with whole offerings of rams and the fat of buffaloes;

I have no desire for the blood of bulls, of sheep and of he goats.

Whenever you come to enter my presence — who asked you for this? No more shall you trample my courts.

The offer of your gifts is useless,

the reek of sacrifice is abhorrent to me. (Isaiah 1:11–13)

Jesus Himself said "I desire mercy not sacrifice”, quoting Hosea 6:5–6).