"the decrees of the Council of Trent, which suggested simplifying church interiors"

[Digitonomy]

From the Wikipedia article on St Charles Borromeo, I read

In conformity with the decrees of the Council of Trent, which suggested simplifying church interiors, Borromeo cleared the cathedral of ornate tombs, rich ornaments, banners, and arms. He did not even spare the monuments of his own relatives. He divided the nave of the church into two compartments to separate the sexes at worship.
Source

I had not heard this before. Exactly what did these decrees say?

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t have much info on this, but I believe at the same time they reformed the music that was being sung for the Mass so that it was possible to actually understand it. There were some rather lovely counter-Reformation churches built in response, that are very simply and beautiful.

 

[dans0622]

From the Wikipedia article on St Charles Borromeo, I readI had not heard this before. Exactly what did these decrees say?

Never heard of this before, either. At the end of most sessions of that Council, there is a “Decree Concerning Reform.” I have not read all of those closely so maybe it is tucked in there, somewhere. The closest thing I could find, from Session 25, regards “Cardinals And All Prelates Of The Churches Shall Have Plain Furniture And Table.” I’ve seen nothing regarding church buildings.

Dan

 

[laszlo]

954 Can. 7. If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of Masses, are incentives to impiety rather than the services of piety: let him be anathema [cf. n.943 ].

This canon seems to say the opposite: outward signs (ornaments) are to be retained.

The statement is probably mistake by the Wikipedia. Note that no source is quoted

 

[MarkThompson]

This canon seems to say the opposite: outward signs (ornaments) are to be retained.

The statement is probably mistake by the Wikipedia. Note that no source is quoted

I’m not so sure. While I couldn’t find a direct statement in the texts of Trent themselves, we all know that restraint and simplification were well within the “spirit of Trent.” The Council came close to banning the use of polyphony at Mass altogether because it was too complicated and obscured the texts too much (according to legend it was Palestrina’s Missa Papae Marcelli that convinced them that polyphony could be done with suitable simplicity). So after the Council you see a real retreat, or at least a freeze, for quite a few years in the advance of compositional styles. Yet none of this shows up in the actual documents themselves; it’s just something that people at the time knew. It would not shock me at all if there were a similar “spirit of Trent” with regard to things like church architecture.

 

[laszlo]

I’m not so sure. While I couldn’t find a direct statement in the texts of Trent themselves, we all know that restraint and simplification were well within the “spirit of Trent.” The Council came close to banning the use of polyphony at Mass altogether because it was too complicated and obscured the texts too much (according to legend it was Palestrina’s Missa Papae Marcelli that convinced them that polyphony could be done with suitable simplicity). So after the Council you see a real retreat, or at least a freeze, for quite a few years in the advance of compositional styles. Yet none of this shows up in the actual documents themselves; it’s just something that people at the time knew. It would not shock me at all if there were a similar “spirit of Trent” with regard to things like church architecture.

My point is that if the person would have knowledge about the topic he would quote the Council. We have no right to guess about the Spirit. Quod non est in Actis, non est in mundo. The documents are open for everyone.

In Hungary there are pre Trident churches and and again from the 18th Century (in between the Turks ruled the country). The former (especially 15th century) are puritan and simple, little ornament, the later full with ornaments and statutes. The protestant churches are simple.

The poliphonic music was new in the time of Trident, and was considered secular. The ornaments were not. In a 11th Century they even carved the inside part of the columns which were always hidden: they did it for God, not for the people.

 

[Bluegoat]

My point is that if the person would have knowledge about the topic he would quote the Council. We have no right to guess about the Spirit. Quod non est in Actis, non est in mundo. The documents are open for everyone.

In Hungary there are pre Trident churches and and again from the 18th Century (in between the Turks ruled the country). The former (especially 15th century) are puritan and simple, little ornament, the later full with ornaments and statutes. The protestant churches are simple.

The poliphonic music was new in the time of Trident, and was considered secular. The ornaments were not. In a 11th Century they even carved the inside part of the columns which were always hidden: they did it for God, not for the people.

I tend to agree though that there may have been a change. I seem to recall from my university days that the counter-Reformation produced some very different styles of church buildings and architecture. They were much simpler and restrained, quite different from the Baroque style that you often say. And my lecturer was clear that these simpler buildings were directly a result of the counter-Reformation.

It might be most effective to look in a good history of ecclesiastical architecture for this kind of information, which might not be available online. I am not surprised that it wouldn’t be clearly set out in the documents - we can see all kinds of changes as a result of Vatican II that are not in the documents - but they are clearly a result of what happened there, even if the unintended result.

 

[Digitonomy]

I delved into the history of the Wiki page, and apparently one of the authors cribbed a lot of his information from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica:

In conformity with the decrees of the council of Trent, he cleared the cathedral of its gorgeous tombs, rich ornaments, banners, arms, sparing not even the monuments of his own relatives.

It sounds like the issue was not ornamentation, but personal or familial monuments, consistent with the practice of the wealthy giving big donations in order to be buried closer to the altar, and thus more likely to get into heaven. I’m no expert on this historical practice, and I certainly over-simplified it, but it’s safe to assume that many back in the day also had a simplistic and distorted understanding of this custom.

Hopefully someone can enlighten me on the details of this custom and whether it was addressed by Trent.