The definitive list of Mary objections

[LSK]

We Catholics read the Bible differently that you are reading it - we read it in a literal sense, which means we do not have to see a sentence in the Bible that specifically states “God Heard the prayers of the faithful” to know that God hears the prayers of the faithful. If we did, then we would state there is not reason to pray to God at all - whether we pray to Jesus, The Father or The Holy Spirit.

When one reads something in a literal sense it means we address the custom of the times, the translation used, the language nuances used at the times and the direction of the Church. As it says in 1 Peter 2:5 …“be a holy priesthood to offer sacrifices thru Christ” we know that prayers offered for us by others to God are heard because why would God tell us to do something is He did not wish to honor it by listening?

Praying with Our Blessed Mother is not different that praying with the rest of the congregation or community during worship - it is praying with someone else who loves The Savior.

 

[EA_Man]

LSK:

We Catholics read the Bible differently that you are reading it - we read it in a literal sense, which means we do not have to see a sentence in the Bible that specifically states “God Heard the prayers of the faithful” to know that God hears the prayers of the faithful. If we did, then we would state there is not reason to pray to God at all - whether we pray to Jesus, The Father or The Holy Spirit.

When one reads something in a literal sense it means we address the custom of the times, the translation used, the language nuances used at the times and the direction of the Church. As it says in 1 Peter 2:5 …“be a holy priesthood to offer sacrifices thru Christ” we know that prayers offered for us by others to God are heard because why would God tell us to do something is He did not wish to honor it by listening?

Praying with Our Blessed Mother is not different that praying with the rest of the congregation or community during worship - it is praying with someone else who loves The Savior.

But there are plenty of verses that confirm that God hears the prayers of the faithful - Luke 1:13, Acts 10:31, and plenty of others.

The question that remains is not does God hear our prayers, but do the dead hear our prayers? You have offered NO proof that they do.

When you say a literal sense does that mean when Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches does that mean that we are literally branches and that He is a literal plant?

Does that mean that the Church teaches 6 literal 24 hour days for the Creation?

Protestants “love the Savior” too - do you pray with them as well?

 

[DianJo]

I don’t remember the book or the verse but the bible says that the “dead” are not the dead in Christ but are ALIVE IN CHRIST.

Why would we not think those that have passed into eternity and are in the presence of God cannot hear our prayers if they are alive in Christ? They are more alive than we are. It is by the power of Christ that they can hear our prayers. This has been the belief even long before Jesus was born. This tradition pre-dates Jesus by about another 2000-3000 years! Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Even Elijah and Moses are seen conversing with Jesus on the mountain at Jesus’ transfiguration. If Elijah and Moses are alive by the grace of God, why can’t Mary, of all people, the woman who carried God in her womb, be alive?

Mary received special graces from God since her conception. She is foretold in Genesis, she, if anyone, being alive in Christ, her Son and Savior, would be able to hear our prayers by the power of Christ!

 

[hlgomez]

The question that remains is not does God hear our prayers, but do the dead hear our prayers? You have offered NO proof that they do.

Vision of heaven:
Rev 5:8 “When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.”

If you still want proof, then you are not a man of faith.

Pio

 

[Mickey]

EA_Man:

The question that remains is not does God hear our prayers, but do the dead hear our prayers? You have offered NO proof that they do.

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Catholic Answers

 

[EA_Man]

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Catholic Answers

If the bowls of incense / prayers noted by John in Rev. 5:8 were offered through the saints (the 24 elders pictured), then was the bowl of incense & prayers presented by the angel in Rev. 8:3-4 offered through the angel? Can I now present my prayer petitions through angels by virtue of this verse? Is this angel interceding for us?

If it is “clear” from Rev. 5:8 that the saints intercede for us, is it “clear” that the angel in Rev. 8:3-4 is intercedeing for us as well since John is explicitly telling us that prayers are offered in this passage as well?

Does this passage strengthen my argument that we are to pray to God through angels?

Thanks for your help

 

[RyanL]

EA_Man:

If the bowls of incense / prayers noted by John in Rev. 5:8 were offered through the saints (the 24 elders pictured), then was the bowl of incense & prayers presented by the angel in Rev. 8:3-4 offered through the angel? Can I now present my prayer petitions through angels by virtue of this verse? Is this angel interceding for us?

If it is “clear” from Rev. 5:8 that the saints intercede for us, is it “clear” that the angel in Rev. 8:3-4 is intercedeing for us as well since John is explicitly telling us that prayers are offered in this passage as well?

Does this passage strengthen my argument that we are to pray to God through angels?

Thanks for your help

as i said before, yes, you have an angel, and yes, you may pray for his help and prayers (i imagine he would be happy to hear from you after so long…).

here’s a prayer, if you need help:

Prayer to Our Guardian Angel

Angel of God, my guardian dear, to whom God’s love commits me here, ever this day be at my side to light and guard, to rule and guide. Amen.

RyanL

 

[LSK]

EA_Man:

But there are plenty of verses that confirm that God hears the prayers of the faithful - Luke 1:13, Acts 10:31, and plenty of others.

The question that remains is not does God hear our prayers, but do the dead hear our prayers? You have offered NO proof that they do.

When you say a literal sense does that mean when Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches does that mean that we are literally branches and that He is a literal plant?

Does that mean that the Church teaches 6 literal 24 hour days for the Creation?

Protestants “love the Savior” too - do you pray with them as well?

1. You are not reading it in a literal sense - you are reading it in a LITERALIST SENSE.

Here is the difference: A LITERALIST, when told it is raining cats and dogs, thinks kitties and puppies are falling from the sky. A person reading in a LITERAL SENSE knows it is raining hard. Do not be upset - this is a common error.
Of course I pray with Protestants - they are Christians, right?

Also, we do not believe the PERSON is dead, we believe the BODY is dead…the PERSON who believes in Jesus Christ is granted eternal life. If the person dies in a state of mortal sin, they are eternally LIVING IN HELL. If they were DEAD, then eternal damnation would not be much of a punishment, just as eternal life in the Presence of Jesus in Heaven would not be much of a reward, right?

So - do our dead BODIES hear our prayers? Of course not - but do the Angels, the Communion of Saints and Our Precious Lord and Savior? You BETCHA…this is as real for faithful Catholics as saying to YOU, my brother in Christ, to please pray for me.

And I, of course, will continue to pray for you and with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit. For all glory and honor belongs to Christ.

 

[RyanL]

EA_Man:

When you say a literal sense does that mean when Jesus says He is the vine and we are the branches does that mean that we are literally branches and that He is a literal plant?

Does that mean that the Church teaches 6 literal 24 hour days for the Creation?

you misunderstand how catholics read the scripture. please read this link, as it will clear up what we mean by “literal” (which is to say, not literal-ist!).
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405bt.asp

EA_Man:

Protestants “love the Savior” too - do you pray with them as well?

i pray with them every sunday, and sometimes more often! i would pray for you, if you would like, and would ask that you pray for the many intentions of my prayers.

may Christ have mercy on us sinners,
RyanL

 

[EA_Man]

EA_Man:

If the bowls of incense / prayers noted by John in Rev. 5:8 were offered through the saints (the 24 elders pictured), then was the bowl of incense & prayers presented by the angel in Rev. 8:3-4 offered through the angel? Can I now present my prayer petitions through angels by virtue of this verse? Is this angel interceding for us?

If it is “clear” from Rev. 5:8 that the saints intercede for us, is it “clear” that the angel in Rev. 8:3-4 is intercedeing for us as well since John is explicitly telling us that prayers are offered in this passage as well?

Does this passage strengthen my argument that we are to pray to God through angels?

Thanks for your help

There’s only one angel mentioned in Rev. 8:3-4 - so does that one angel handle all of the prayers, do we share one angel, or what?

 

[EA_Man]

1. You are not reading it in a literal sense - you are reading it in a LITERALIST SENSE.

Here is the difference: A LITERALIST, when told it is raining cats and dogs, thinks kitties and puppies are falling from the sky. A person reading in a LITERAL SENSE knows it is raining hard. Do not be upset - this is a common error.
Of course I pray with Protestants - they are Christians, right?

Also, we do not believe the PERSON is dead, we believe the BODY is dead…the PERSON who believes in Jesus Christ is granted eternal life. If the person dies in a state of mortal sin, they are eternally LIVING IN HELL. If they were DEAD, then eternal damnation would not be much of a punishment, just as eternal life in the Presence of Jesus in Heaven would not be much of a reward, right?

So - do our dead BODIES hear our prayers? Of course not - but do the Angels, the Communion of Saints and Our Precious Lord and Savior? You BETCHA…this is as real for faithful Catholics as saying to YOU, my brother in Christ, to please pray for me.

And I, of course, will continue to pray for you and with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit. For all glory and honor belongs to Christ.

Thanks for the clarification on literal / literalist.

Question regarding Protestants being Christians; if protestants are Christians, then by definition they’re followers of Jesus Christ, that would seem to indicate that they are saved. Do you consider them saved? I only ask because there seems to be quite a few people around these forums that would insist that they are not and furthermore they would, and have, insisted that the Catholic Church claims that they are not saved. Could you clarify that for me?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

Peace

 

[RyanL]

Revelations 8

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake

as you can plainly see, the angel described is one who has a particular function - hurling his censer to earth causing earthly events to happen. not God alone, mind you, but an angel causing earthly events - talk about intercession!

because this particular angel is seen performing a particular function, it is not surprising to see him refered to in the singular. notice, however, that the verse doesn’t say or even imply that this angel is the only angel who mingles prayers with the saints. again, we can believe that they all do because the church tells us and the church has the authority to tell us. you will find that this is not contrary to the scriptures, but rather is in keeping with scripture (Ps. 103:20-21, 148:1-2), both old and new testament.

i think you know this to be true, you just don’t like it…

RyanL

 

[RyanL]

EA_Man:

Question regarding Protestants being Christians; if protestants are Christians, then by definition they’re followers of Jesus Christ, that would seem to indicate that they are saved. Do you consider them saved? I only ask because there seems to be quite a few people around these forums that would insist that they are not and furthermore they would, and have, insisted that the Catholic Church claims that they are not saved. Could you clarify that for me?

catholics won’t say who is and who is not “saved”, except to say that those who love God above all things, for His own sake, and love others as themselves, being obedient to His commandments (to include baptism/sacriments as able), may enter heaven through Christ our Savior, who reconciled the world through His Passion, Death, and Ressurection. God will have mercy on whomever he will have mercy on, and we are not to judge anyone (including ourselves), lest we commit the sin of presumption.

perhaps you should read a little more about the catholic view of being “saved”: catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

when your done, please ask any questions you still have…
RyanL

 

[Mickey]

**CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA **

In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer] (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

**CYPRIAN **

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

**CYRIL OF JERUSALEM **

Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

**EPHRAIM **

Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

**JEROME **

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . .But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [AD. 406]).

 

[CARose]

EA_Man:

Thanks for the clarification on literal / literalist.

Question regarding Protestants being Christians; if protestants are Christians, then by definition they’re followers of Jesus Christ, that would seem to indicate that they are saved. Do you consider them saved? I only ask because there seems to be quite a few people around these forums that would insist that they are not and furthermore they would, and have, insisted that the Catholic Church claims that they are not saved. Could you clarify that for me?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

Peace

Hi EA_Man,

I recognize that this question was posted to Ryan, but perhaps I can give you a satisfactory answer. I’ll try to explain the Catholic position on anyone’s salvation, be they Catholic, Protestant or otherwise.

Our judgement is a matter for God, and God alone, so first off I’d like to make it clear that I cannot speak to the definitive state of anyone’s soul, other than those who have been canonized by the Church. Those, thank God, we can be assured are resting with God in Heaven. On another thread, I heard confusion that this meant that Catholics don’t think anyone gets to heaven until they have been canonized (declared a Saint formally by the Vatican). This is incorrect, we merely know for certainty that those who have been canonized are in heaven. We simply don’t have that degree of knowledge regarding the repose of the souls who have not been declared saints infallibly.

OK, now, as for the state of your soul (a faithful Protestant), mine (a faithful Catholic) and those of others who are neither. The church does teach that there is no salvation outside the Church. This is frequently misunderstood to mean that unless one is a member of the Catholic Church, they cannot be assured a place in heaven. This is a misunderstanding of what the Church teaches, so much so that a priest who insisted on this was declared a Heretic in the '50’s for holding and teaching such a position despite being told to stop on numerous occations. So the Church is quite clear that what is meant by this teaching of the Church is that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and it is only through this Mystical Body of Christ that salvation is made available to the world. Christ opened the gates of heaven through his supreme sacrifice. Without that sacrifice these gates would not be open and the salvation of humanity would not be possible.

One of the most difficult things for many to come to terms with is that Christ desires the salvation of all men, although he has told us that the road to hell is wide and well traveled, while the road to heaven is narrow and difficult, and few will make it. What makes it difficult? It is not especially difficult to Love Jesus Christ, for he came to us to preach a Gospel of Love for his father and for our fellow man. The difficulty comes in LIVING his example.

Hence, while I strive on a daily basis to overcome sin, I know that I repetatively fall short. I repent from my sins, confess them, do penance and seek to amend my life so as to live according to the will of the Father. I receive the graces he makes available through his One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I seek to follow Christ in all I do. But am I positive, with certainty that I will go to heaven. I have sincere Hope that I will finish the race in His Grace but I do not presume to know the final outcome of my life, even though I love God. But I have a great hope and faith in Christ.

Will you finish the race in God’s good graces? I can only hope that you too will die in Christ’s arms. If you die Protestant will I dispair that you failed? Absolutely NOT. God is not in any way constrained by the Church he created and provided for our assistance. The Church and all the sacraments were given to us by Christ to assist us in our journey to know better know him, love him and serve him.

If one comes to understand that the Catholic Church is in fact that Church established by Christ, and still fails to enter it, this is another matter altogether, for Christ desired that we be united so that the world would know us by our unity. To know the Church and still refuse to enter it is a grave sin. But to be unconvinced and watch it from outside, that is something between you and God and I will forever hope for the souls of those who die, be they Catholic, Protestant or other.

It is my hope that we each seek to live our lives according to our best understanding of what is right and that God, through his infinite wisdom, justice and love will care for these souls when they come to him for judgement.

I hope I’ve answered your question.

God Bless,

CARose

P.S. Ryan, I started composing my answer before your’s was up. I’m not in any way suggesting yours was inadequate. As a matter of fact I quite like your and you ability to be succinct!

 

[LSK]

EA_Man:

Thanks for the clarification on literal / literalist.

Question regarding Protestants being Christians; if protestants are Christians, then by definition they’re followers of Jesus Christ, that would seem to indicate that they are saved. Do you consider them saved? I only ask because there seems to be quite a few people around these forums that would insist that they are not and furthermore they would, and have, insisted that the Catholic Church claims that they are not saved. Could you clarify that for me?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

Peace

Both Ryan and others have answered this question much better than I -and yes, there are a few people around these forums that misrepresent the Catechism. Don’t let that worry you - we are human beings, after all, and we will all make mistakes…even me .

I have found that confusion can be best resolved by asking someone in authority. I go to the "Ask An Apologis"t forum and place my question before Father Serpa. I am blessed to be a ‘Cradle Catholic’ and was taught well, but still need help understanding the nuances of my Church’s teaching. I am re-reading the Catechism right now and falling in love with my Church all over again…so rich and full and beautiful. HOWEVER, I will tell you that when I was a little girl I remember the men in my neighborhood laughing gently at each other because, as they used to say, Catholics can get into intense discussions about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but miss the chance to share their faith with someone like you who has honest and respectful questions.

I have one for you. Could you explain the “saved” concept to me? I am probably wrong but what it SEEMS like is that a person can do anything they want while alive as long as they say they believe in Jesus Christ. That can’t be right - it seems way too simplistic so I think the person who gave me this information either doesn’t understand it themselves or has been taught wrong by their Protestant parents…thank you!

 

[Mickey]

CARose:

Hi EA_Man,

I recognize that this question was posted to Ryan, but perhaps I can give you a satisfactory answer. I’ll try to explain the Catholic position on anyone’s salvation, be they Catholic, Protestant or otherwise.

Our judgement is a matter for God, and God alone, so first off I’d like to make it clear that I cannot speak to the definitive state of anyone’s soul, other than those who have been canonized by the Church. Those, thank God, we can be assured are resting with God in Heaven. On another thread, I heard confusion that this meant that Catholics don’t think anyone gets to heaven until they have been canonized (declared a Saint formally by the Vatican). This is incorrect, we merely know for certainty that those who have been canonized are in heaven. We simply don’t have that degree of knowledge regarding the repose of the souls who have not been declared saints infallibly.

OK, now, as for the state of your soul (a faithful Protestant), mine (a faithful Catholic) and those of others who are neither. The church does teach that there is no salvation outside the Church. This is frequently misunderstood to mean that unless one is a member of the Catholic Church, they cannot be assured a place in heaven. This is a misunderstanding of what the Church teaches, so much so that a priest who insisted on this was declared a Heretic in the '50’s for holding and teaching such a position despite being told to stop on numerous occations. So the Church is quite clear that what is meant by this teaching of the Church is that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and it is only through this Mystical Body of Christ that salvation is made available to the world. Christ opened the gates of heaven through his supreme sacrifice. Without that sacrifice these gates would not be open and the salvation of humanity would not be possible.

One of the most difficult things for many to come to terms with is that Christ desires the salvation of all men, although he has told us that the road to hell is wide and well traveled, while the road to heaven is narrow and difficult, and few will make it. What makes it difficult? It is not especially difficult to Love Jesus Christ, for he came to us to preach a Gospel of Love for his father and for our fellow man. The difficulty comes in LIVING his example.

Hence, while I strive on a daily basis to overcome sin, I know that I repetatively fall short. I repent from my sins, confess them, do penance and seek to amend my life so as to live according to the will of the Father. I receive the graces he makes available through his One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and I seek to follow Christ in all I do. But am I positive, with certainty that I will go to heaven. I have sincere Hope that I will finish the race in His Grace but I do not presume to know the final outcome of my life, even though I love God. But I have a great hope and faith in Christ.

Will you finish the race in God’s good graces? I can only hope that you too will die in Christ’s arms. If you die Protestant will I dispair that you failed? Absolutely NOT. God is not in any way constrained by the Church he created and provided for our assistance. The Church and all the sacraments were given to us by Christ to assist us in our journey to know better know him, love him and serve him.

If one comes to understand that the Catholic Church is in fact that Church established by Christ, and still fails to enter it, this is another matter altogether, for Christ desired that we be united so that the world would know us by our unity. To know the Church and still refuse to enter it is a grave sin. But to be unconvinced and watch it from outside, that is something between you and God and I will forever hope for the souls of those who die, be they Catholic, Protestant or other.

It is my hope that we each seek to live our lives according to our best understanding of what is right and that God, through his infinite wisdom, justice and love will care for these souls when they come to him for judgement.

Very good post CARose!

 

[CARose]

Thanks Mickey,

CARose

 

[EA_Man]

LSK:

Both Ryan and others have answered this question much better than I -and yes, there are a few people around these forums that misrepresent the Catechism. Don’t let that worry you - we are human beings, after all, and we will all make mistakes…even me .

I have found that confusion can be best resolved by asking someone in authority. I go to the "Ask An Apologis"t forum and place my question before Father Serpa. I am blessed to be a ‘Cradle Catholic’ and was taught well, but still need help understanding the nuances of my Church’s teaching. I am re-reading the Catechism right now and falling in love with my Church all over again…so rich and full and beautiful. HOWEVER, I will tell you that when I was a little girl I remember the men in my neighborhood laughing gently at each other because, as they used to say, Catholics can get into intense discussions about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but miss the chance to share their faith with someone like you who has honest and respectful questions.

I have one for you. Could you explain the “saved” concept to me? I am probably wrong but what it SEEMS like is that a person can do anything they want while alive as long as they say they believe in Jesus Christ. That can’t be right - it seems way too simplistic so I think the person who gave me this information either doesn’t understand it themselves or has been taught wrong by their Protestant parents…thank you!

Thanks for the opportunity to reciprocate.

Being or getting ‘saved’ does not give anyone a license to live any old way they want. But first things first.

Protestants, forgive me for generalizing, believe that each of us must turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness. That each one of us was born into the sin of Adam. That being the case, each of us is in need of a savior - since all of us, Catholics and Protestants together recognize Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and also the only name under Heaven by which we can be saved.

Because of this belief, Protestants, by and large, believe that infant Baptism is not regenerative. You see, if each of us must
“repent and believe”, then each must be of an age to be able to recognize their sinfulness and repent of it. The Protestant denominations that Baptize infants do not recognize it as regenerative and those that do recognize it as regenerative do not baptize infants. Now what of infants and children that die before being able to turn to Jesus Christ? This is handled in one of three ways that I am aware of.

1. Automatically saved
2. Same classification as those that have never had a chance to hear the Gospel and therefore never either accepted Jesus Christ nor rejected Him.
3. Will hear and have the chance to decide in the eternal ages.

As far as once saved always saved goes - salvation is not an excuse for license as Paul makes perfectly clear in Romans 6.
Secondly, Protestants also believe that faith without works is dead. But we believe that those works are a sign or signify a Christian life of grace rather than are a requirement for salvation. In other words, we respond to our salvation by performing good works. Those good works however are not efficacious to or do not add to our salvation.

Now, God alone knows the heart. And a “lack of works” would be viewed as evidence of a “questionable” faith. But the reverse can be true too, an abundance of “works” does not justify us if we are trying to “earn” our way into heaven.

The obvious example is Mother Theresa. A protestant regards Mother Theresa as a sister in Christ because of her testimony that Christ is / was her savior. Her salvation is by faith. Her good works were evidence of that faith. And by all accounts hers was a beauitful and deep faith based on the evidence of her works.

Would that we all had her faith. And that we all responded to that faith as she did.

I hope that answers your questions.

Peace to you all.

 

[RyanL]

CARose:

I recognize that this question was posted to Ryan …
P.S. Ryan, I started composing my answer before your’s was up. I’m not in any way suggesting yours was inadequate. As a matter of fact I quite like your and you ability to be succinct!

CARose,

I never consider a question “mine” unless my name is specifically mentioned - in this case, it wasn’t. Even if I was specifically questioned, I would never turn down the help of a true child of God (which is to say you are always welcome).

It should be known that I have been a fan of yours well before you saw my first post! To be acknowledged by you is truly humbling. I consider myself an apologetic hack, and I frequently have trouble fully expressing my ideas - I’m afraid you mistake succint for innane! Your last post shows me how far I still have to go!

I would also like to thank LSK for the kind words - you both give me too much credit.

EA_Man,

Did you read the link for OSAS? What did you think? What errors are there in the arguments?

RyanL