The demand for evidence for the existence of God

[atheistgirl]

Atheism cannot satisfy. Under atheism all of that is meaningless, and you just happened to be lucky enough not to be born into a family full of poverty and suffering. What purpose do morals have under atheism? Sure, you can say it’s to advance the species, but why do that? We’re just going to die out sooner or later. Like it or not, when you’re an atheist it is impossible to deny the apparent reality of nihilism.

From my point of view, and in my opinion, atheism is fully satisfactory. Im lost on your point about being lucky to not have been born into poverty and suffering - you know nothing of my upbringing but I can tell you it was bare. I agree, it is my view we will die, and apart from what we leave behind, that’s it. I find that perfectly satisfactory, until such time as evidence shows us otherwise.

Sarah x

 

[trdchubi]

I think it’s possible that the ringing the other kids heard was all in their heads.

Or, to be more comparable to Christian mythology: the ringing of the ice cream truck was originally in one kid’s head, and he convinced other kids that they heard it too. They, in turn, wrote notes to other kids about the ringing of the ice cream truck. The kids who read the notes, decided to believe the ringing was real, even though they didn’t even know the original kid, or even the kids who wrote the notes. Later kids also believed based on what those other kids said, and convinced themselves the ringing was real. Eventually, it simply became the accepted playground convention to believe you heard the ice cream truck; even if it seemed a little strange at first, you had to believe it in order to play with the others.

Every so often a kid would sneak out of the fenced area to venture around the corner, but they never came back to tell whether the truck was really there. This strange fact didn’t seem to bother those who believed in the ice cream truck - they just assumed those who went around the corner were enjoying their ice cream too much to come back (an explanation that made a lot of sense to the other ice cream believers).

Of course, there were doubters of the ice cream truck. But they were a minority and were seldom taken seriously - under the Ice Cream Truck belief structure, seriously considering the doubters position was frowned upon. Evidence, or the desire for evidence was considered bad form because it meant you were a spoiled sport and didn’t really believe in the Ice Cream Truck. Such doubters were banished to the far end of the playground where the grass was dead and the weeds grew. On the other hand, Faith in the Ice Cream Truck was accounted a great virtue and rewarded with extra cookies at lunchtime, and an extra turn at hopscotch.

For that reason, most of the kids felt it was obviously better to believe in the Ice Cream Truck than to not believe. So when asked how they knew the Ice Cream Truck was around the corner, they, of course answered that it was “obvious” to them, forgetting the fact that they had been convinced by others that they could hear the ringing, who in turn had also been convinced by others, who had in turn… etc.

But eventually, each kid made their own trip around the corner in search of the Ice Cream Truck. Imagine their surprise when they found… nothing.

The end.

I believe the religious response to demands for evidence is really an assertion of the primacy of hope over reason.

Hey I love the Ice cream and that Ice cream truck. Sometimes the ringing is faint but if you listen closely you’ll hear it.

By the way the Ice cream truck is equipped with a Boom box now. It’s made by highly intelligent people in Israel who were out of commission by millennia. Yes made in the modern State of Israel.

If it is not for the clever guys in Israel that Ice cream truck will be a clunker now. Good thing the Ice cream truck knows how to adapt to modern times.People are flocking by the millions because of the loud sounds.

Only deaf and blind people will deny the existence of that wonderful Ice cream truck.

 

[atheistgirl]

Only deaf and blind people will deny that the existing of that wonderful Ice cream truck.

Not always true. I dont deny the existence of the wonderful ice cream truck to the people that buy that ice cream.
I just dont like the flavors on offer

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

From my point of view, and in my opinion, atheism is fully satisfactory. Im lost on your point about being lucky to not have been born into poverty and suffering - my father died when we were children, he was self employed so we had no money what so ever and I do mean none - my mother worked a part time job to keep food on the table and nothing else. We didnt have a color tv or even a phone when I was growing up. Will I can never say we went hungry, we certainly had nothing spare, and no luxuries what so ever.
I agree, it is my view we will die, and apart from what we leave behind, that’s it. I find that perfectly satisfactory, until such time as evidence shows us otherwise.

Sarah x

I had a similar childhood to you, Sarah, but without a TV, frig, washing machine or any other mod cons. I’m grateful I was born into poverty because it made me self-reliant, forced me to work and taught me to appreciate things. I realised that life is what we make it - unless we lack the basic necessities - and that we are not here by sheer chance. Ultimately we all get what we deserve because every effort and every act of kindness brings its own reward.

Blessed are the poor because they take nothing for granted and appreciate what they have!

 

[Pieman333272]

From my point of view, and in my opinion, atheism is fully satisfactory. Im lost on your point about being lucky to not have been born into poverty and suffering - my father died when we were children, he was self employed so we had no money what so ever and I do mean none - my mother worked a part time job to keep food on the table and nothing else. We didnt have a color tv or even a phone when I was growing up. Will I can never say we went hungry, we certainly had nothing spare, and no luxuries what so ever.

OK, I didn’t know that. I’m glad you can have at least some luxury now. But, why care? The only reason you have joy is because you can afford to live - what about people in third world countries, living on less than $1 a year? Why shouldn’t they kill themselves? It would end all their suffering, according to atheism at least.

I agree, it is my view we will die, and apart from what we leave behind, that’s it. I find that perfectly satisfactory, until such time as evidence shows us otherwise.

Sarah x

So your mom, your child, all your family, just going, is satisfactory? And everything, in your view, will be annihilated sooner or later. So you’re not leaving anything behind, really.

 

[atheistgirl]

I had a similar childhood to you, Sarah, but without a TV, frig, washing machine or any other mod cons. I’m grateful I was born into poverty because it made me self-reliant, forced me to work and taught me to appreciate things. I realised that life is what we make it - unless we lack the basic necessities - and that we are not here by sheer chance. Ultimately we all get what we deserve because every effort and every act of kindness brings its own reward.

Blessed are the poor because they take nothing for granted and appreciate what they have!

I believe slightly different to you - everything I see and read points veery clearly - to me - that we are here entirely by chance.
I also dont think people get what they deserve. But thats mostly to do with the way societies are structured, and no act of kindness should be left undone because it improves us all.
But it should be done for and of itself. Not for some reward, or out of some sense of fulfilling a punishment.

Sarah x

 

[mdrummer5]

OK, I didn’t know that. I’m glad you can have at least some luxury now. But, why care? The only reason you have joy is because you can afford to live - what about people in third world countries, living on less than $1 a year? Why shouldn’t they kill themselves? It would end all their suffering, according to atheism at least.

Huh? I’ve known quite a few atheists, none have ever suggested that suicide was a good idea if you’re suffering. In fact any friends of mine without faith would consider suicide a coward’s way of dealing with problems not a solution to them.

 

[atheistgirl]

OK, I didn’t know that. I’m glad you can have at least some luxury now. But, why care? The only reason you have joy is because you can afford to live - what about people in third world countries, living on less than $1 a year? Why shouldn’t they kill themselves? It would end all their suffering, according to atheism at least.

No the only reason I have joy is not because I can afford to live. I have joy in my heart every day working, knowing I am helping my employees improve their lot, watching my children grow to be great people, helping the community when I can, solving problems, reading great literature, walking my dogs and watching them make sense of the world around them, watching my plants come alive and bloom - the list is endless - and it has just about nothing to do with money or being able to afford to live.
Why would people living on $1 a day kill themselves, any more than we did as kids when the sky fell in, any more than someone fighting a life threatening disease would? While it happens, the vast majority of humans live to fight, to improve, to get on, to contribute and help, to make things better. It’s how we’ve evolved and what weve done since the beginning of time. If not, we’d never have got out of the caves - we’d have just looked at the exploding sky and end the species right there and then.
It’s not in our nature.

So your mom, your child, all your family, just going, is satisfactory? And everything, in your view, will be annihilated sooner or later. So you’re not leaving anything behind, really.

Very true - the sun is dying and we live on a cooling planet. In a few billion years, assuming some faith or other doesnt bring about armagadon - and lets remember there are millions of believers that WANT to bring about armagedon - there will nothing of this rock left. I dont have a problem with this in any way. It’s just the essence of the place we live.

Sarah x

 

[Pieman333272]

Huh? I’ve known quite a few atheists, none have ever suggested that suicide was a good idea if you’re suffering. In fact any friends of mine without faith would consider suicide a coward’s way of dealing with problems not a solution to them.

Yes, but if there’s no purpose one who suffers has some reason just to end it. I don’t think its a good thing, I wouldn’t even if I were an atheist, but the idea of an absence of purpose has implications on suffering and such that could lead to such.

 

[Pieman333272]

No the only reason I have joy is not because I can afford to live. I have joy in my heart every day working, knowing I am helping my employees improve their lot, watching my children grow to be great people, helping the community when I can, solving problems, reading great literature, walking my dogs and watching them make sense of the world around them, watching my plants come alive and bloom - the list is endless - and it has just about nothing to do with money or being able to afford to live.
Why would people living on $1 a day kill themselves, any more than we did as kids when the sky fell in, any more than someone fighting a life threatening disease would? While it happens, the vast majority of humans live to fight, to improve, to get on, to contribute and help, to make things better. It’s how ever evolved and what weve done since the beginning of time. If not, we’d never have got out of the caves - we’d have just looked at the exploding sky and end the species right there and then.
It’s not in our nature.

Very true - the sun is dying and we live on a cooling planet. In a few billion years, assuming some faith or other doesnt bring about armagadon - and lets remember there are millions of believers that WANT to bring about armagedon - there will nothing of this rock left. I dont have a problem with this in any way. It’s just the essence of the place we live.

OK. I can understand atheism is satisfying to you. You, unlike me, do not enjoy the concept of an ultimate purpose. I see no point in debating this further and I think if we do it will continue ad nauseum.

 

[mdrummer5]

Yes, but if there’s no purpose one who suffers has some reason just to end it. I don’t think its a good thing, I wouldn’t even if I were an atheist, but the idea of an absence of purpose has implications on suffering and such that could lead to such.

Perhaps… but we can’t assume that any atheist would think that way which is kinda what you did.

 

[1stOrderKoC]

I pray for those who do not know God. You may not know God but He knows you!!! Ive had 2 visions, One of God and the Blessed Mother. Many people wish they could recieve what I have and I wish they could too.

Peace be with you all!!!

 

[Pieman333272]

Perhaps… but we can’t assume that any atheist would think that way which is kinda what you did.

Yes, you are right. I shouldn’t make generalizations.

 

[tonyrey]

I believe slightly different to you - everything I see and read points veery clearly - to me - that we are here entirely by chance.

Wow! Entirely?

I also dont think people get what they deserve.

It can be proved that we get what they deserve as far as our personality is concerned. Our virtues - like patience, courage and unselfishness - make us happier than our vices - like pride, laziness and greed - which make us discontented and frustrated. That alone is a sign we’re not here **entirely **by chance. I’ve echoed what you’ve said!

But thats mostly to do with the way societies are structured, and no act of kindness should be left undone because it improves us all.

Precisely! I’ve echoed what you’ve said!

But it should be done for and of itself. Not for some reward, or out of some sense of fulfilling a punishment.

I agree but our reward comes automatically. When we love others we make ourselves lovable, whether we like it or not.

 

[Betterave]

I think the vast majority of believers are very sincere. But I think you are being asked to leave rationality and critical judgement at the door by faiths.

You are really being asked to do that by ‘faiths’? You may be sincere, but seriously, could you please try to substantiate that claim? It sounds ludicrous to me. It most certainly does not apply to the Catholic faith.

And if you question too much, or too closely, you’ll find yourself banned, or shunned, or called horrible names. That’s the reality of exchanges between believers and nonbelievers. In fact, if you go too far in some cases, you can find a death sentence on your head for daring to even ask a question.

Sarah x

But are you suggesting that the reponsibility for the irrational elements in such exchanges should all be laid at the feet of believers?? You have never observed how nasty and irrational unbelievers can be?

 

[Betterave]

Philospohically - When I dont understand something, or think I do, I am always open to being corrected and having my knowledge expaned. I dont find anything helpful or fulfilling in simple having to accept things - just because.

So it follows that P1) you can’t find life (and atheism) fulfilling unless you never have to simply accept things; but P2) you can’t possibly never have to simply accept things; C) therefore you can’t find life (and atheism) fulfilling.

 

[atheistgirl]

You are really being asked to do that by ‘faiths’? You may be sincere, but seriously, could you please try to substantiate that claim? It sounds ludicrous to me. It most certainly does not apply to the Catholic faith.

Im aware Im a guest on a catholic forum so I wont go into specific issues in relation to catholicism in particular or any specific faith - I dont want to cause offence or be accused of prozlytizing.
But all of the major faiths, regardless, ask you to accept there is an uncaused cause, or creator. This creator has made all things and knows all things. This creator, of whatever hue, interviens in human affairs, and wants adherents to offer praise and sacrafice. This creator may cure this person of cancer, but allow these 40000 people to die in a tsunami as his his whim. We made in the image of the creator, but are asked to deny our essence to please him - it’s almost always invariably a him. Most of the earth has a faith, but they disagree over the very basics, even with the same braod faiths. Each claims to have the exclusive truth. If person x is born in the US or Europe they most likely would be a christian - but of what ilk its not certain - the very same person x born in the middle east may be jewish or muslim - and can look forward to a life of killing and desecration in the name of the creator - because THEY know the truth.
I could go on - but it’s all completely irrational to me.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

But are you suggesting that the reponsibility for the irrational elements in such exchanges should all be laid at the feet of believers?? You have never observed how nasty and irrational unbelievers can be?

I completely agree I have heard atheists being very rude and insulting to people of faith and I have challenged them to stop and show some respect.
But I have to be honest and say I have never heard an atheist threaten someones life just because they had a faith. I never heard of an atheist suicide bomber killing innocents just because they believed in a god, even if it happened to be the wrong god. Ive never heard an atheist declare someone damned to hell because they hold a believe contrary to the speaker. Ive never heard an atheist whip a crowd into a frenzy to kill an innocent man over writing a book. Ive never heard atheists declare land was theirs because a 2000 year old book says so and kill generations of innocents to lay claim to and keep that land. Ive never heard an atheist declare someone anathema and excommunicate them.
Stuff like that tends to be the preserve of those with faith.

Sarah x

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Im aware Im a guest on a catholic forum so I wont go into specific issues in relation to catholicism in particular or any specific faith - I dont want to cause offence or be accused of prozlytizing.

You are very wise to make that statement, atheistgirl. You should read what I wrote on page 2 and page 5. Also, keep in mind this fact:

“Science is a worldwide endeavor and ought to be open to anyone — regardless of ethnicity, gender, religious commitment, or any other personal characteristic.”
undsci.berkeley.edu/article/science_worldwide

Great website that I support. Have a nice day.

 

[Betterave]

Im aware Im a guest on a catholic forum so I wont go into specific issues in relation to catholicism in particular or any specific faith - I dont want to cause offence or be accused of prozlytizing.

I appreciate that, but this is also a philosophy forum, so as long as you’re being reasonable, no one has cause to take offence just because you happen to disagree with her.

But all of the major faiths, regardless, ask you to accept there is an uncaused cause, or creator. This creator has made all things and knows all things. This creator, of whatever hue, interviens in human affairs, and wants adherents to offer praise and sacrafice. This creator may cure this person of cancer, but allow these 40000 people to die in a tsunami as his his whim. We made in the image of the creator, but are asked to deny our essence to please him [false] - it’s almost always invariably a him. Most of the earth has a faith, but they disagree over the very basics [do they?? - what are those “basics”?], even with the same braod faiths. Each claims to have the exclusive truth. If person x is born in the US or Europe they most likely would be a christian [or they might well be an atheist! - see how that’s a two-edged sword?] - but of what ilk its not certain - the very same person x born in the middle east may be jewish or muslim - and can look forward to a life of killing and desecration in the name of the creator - because THEY know the truth.
I could go on - but it’s all completely irrational to me.

Sarah x

Okay; but in all that, what they do not ask you is “to leave rationality and critical judgement at the door” - agreed? You may think they effectively do that, but they don’t ask anyone to do that. This is something very basic which they do not generally disagree on.