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RonWI
Guest
They are protesting against the errors of men.
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Pentecost2005
Guest
The fact the he or others do not “think of themselves that way” is irrelevant. Analogously, many alcoholics deny they have a problem; their denial does not make it so.
Strictly speaking, it is not the case that all non-Catholic Christians are Protestants, since the Orthodox churches of the east are neither Catholic nor Protestant.
Many western non-Catholic Christians bristle at being called Protestant because they deny that they are protesting anything.
Indeed, they protest too much.
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Gene_C
Guest
Hi all,
Well, I read an article that was linked somewhere on the Forum, I’m not sure if it was this thread, written by a Baptist about Baptist history.
He makes a good case for Baptists tracing their historical lineage back to the Church of England, the Anglican Communion. Very interesting article. He doesn’t buy the argument that Baptists are part of a lineage that goes all the way back to the “New Testament Church.”
GC
Well, I read an article that was linked somewhere on the Forum, I’m not sure if it was this thread, written by a Baptist about Baptist history.
He makes a good case for Baptists tracing their historical lineage back to the Church of England, the Anglican Communion. Very interesting article. He doesn’t buy the argument that Baptists are part of a lineage that goes all the way back to the “New Testament Church.”
GC
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Exporter
Guest
YESSIR! You said that straight! Baptists ARE Protestants.
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Ignatius
Guest
Not true. We don’t call Eastern Orthodox protestants. We don’t call Oriental Orthodox protestants. We don’t call them protestants because they aren’t. Protestants are denominations which came into being after the protestants of the 16th century.
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RonWI
Guest
If I am talking to a doctor, and I use the term “laymen”, the doctor knows I am refering to all non-doctors, be they attorneys or preists.
If I am talking to a priest, and I use the term “laymen”, he will know I am talking about non-priests, be they lawyers or doctors.
We use the word “layman” as a shorthand to mean - not you. By using the word layman to a priest, I am not suggesting that all octors and all lawyers have the same religious beliefs.
If Catholics want to refer to all non-Catholics, there is nothing wrong with using the shorthand “protestants”. Everyone know what it means. It is a lot more efficient than refering to [list all denominations here].
There only is a problem with the use of the word “protestants” when Catholics associate the word with specific doctrine, as in “protestants believe…”
If I am talking to a priest, and I use the term “laymen”, he will know I am talking about non-priests, be they lawyers or doctors.
We use the word “layman” as a shorthand to mean - not you. By using the word layman to a priest, I am not suggesting that all octors and all lawyers have the same religious beliefs.
If Catholics want to refer to all non-Catholics, there is nothing wrong with using the shorthand “protestants”. Everyone know what it means. It is a lot more efficient than refering to [list all denominations here].
There only is a problem with the use of the word “protestants” when Catholics associate the word with specific doctrine, as in “protestants believe…”
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Ignatius
Guest
RonWI,
Code:
Not all noncatholics are protestants. Protestants are those who split from the Catholic Church in the 16th century or those derived from them. Hence, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Syriac, Maronite, Malabite, Oriental Christians, and many others are not protestants.
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DJgang
Guest
Okay, here comes a spinner…
Can a church be Catholic and Protestant?
Can a church be Catholic and Protestant?
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new_man
Guest
No! Anglicanism pretends to be catholic whilst rejecting the Pope’s authority. Those who profess belief in the Lord but who belong to heretical (sorry bu that’s the word) ecclesial communities which developed during and after the reformation are Protestant. The Orthodox are not Protestant.Okay, here comes a spinner…
Can a church be Catholic and Protestant?
D
DJgang
Guest
new man:
In confirmation class (Episcopal), I am told that we are both Catholic and Protestant…Catholic in the we hold some of the same traditions as Catholics…seven sacraments, etc. but Protestant in the reject of Pope…
I was just curious what others on this forum had to say because I really didn’t see that addressed anywhere.
I must be honest…I feel that I am a “little” Catholic in the sense of the “traditions” that my church use…So although some may feel that No, you can’t be both…I feel that I am a little of both in that sense.
Thanks for all who reply!
What I thought, see I was under the “understanding” the being Protestant simply meant that you defy the Pope’s authority. That actually has always been my understanding…then…
In confirmation class (Episcopal), I am told that we are both Catholic and Protestant…Catholic in the we hold some of the same traditions as Catholics…seven sacraments, etc. but Protestant in the reject of Pope…
I was just curious what others on this forum had to say because I really didn’t see that addressed anywhere.
I must be honest…I feel that I am a “little” Catholic in the sense of the “traditions” that my church use…So although some may feel that No, you can’t be both…I feel that I am a little of both in that sense.
Thanks for all who reply!
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Grandsmoor
Guest
I was raised as a Methodist until I was 31 years old. I always called myself a Protestant through those years. I also thought of all the Christian Churches except the Orthodox and Catholic as Protestant Churches.
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dumspirospero
Guest
As a former Baptist…the label “Protestant” is very fitting…so is a multi-tude of other labels…but I can see how they deny the protestant title, considering some of them actually think they pre-date Catholicism, by believing that the Baptist were actually started by St. John the Baptist LOL…how funny is that.
Kevan:
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dumspirospero
Guest
Yes and No…not The Church itself, but I believe those individuals who claim to be Catholic, yet question the Popes authority and question the validity of our stance on same sex marriage, female ordination, abortion, and contraception…yes that label can apply to individuals…but I would rather label them as in “Defacto Schism” or in self imposed excommunication
DJgang:
Okay, here comes a spinner…
Can a church be Catholic and Protestant?
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
You might be a Protestant if …
- Your Bible has only 66-books in it
- You believe in justification by faith alone (sola fide)
- You believe the Bible alone (sola scriptura) is the sole rule of faith, that is: “*the Scriptures … are the All-Sufficient and Only Rule of Faith and Practice, and Judge of Controversies” *(A.A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, 1860)
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AdsoOfFunkstown
Guest
**In confirmation class (Episcopal), I am told that we are both Catholic and Protestant…Catholic in the we hold some of the same traditions as Catholics…seven sacraments, etc. but Protestant in the reject of Pope…
**That’s what the rest of the Protestants were taught about you, too. Maybe its not that simple, but we got the easy version.
Catholics will pull out several bulls and a concordat or two to explain what a Protestant is. To most Protestants, however, it just means “not Catholic”.
**That’s what the rest of the Protestants were taught about you, too. Maybe its not that simple, but we got the easy version.
Catholics will pull out several bulls and a concordat or two to explain what a Protestant is. To most Protestants, however, it just means “not Catholic”.
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ImperialPhoenix
Guest
I often lump Protestants and LDS as a non-Catholic religion. Though personaly I do see that there are three major branches (Catholism, Protestant, LDS)
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StMarkEofE
Guest
Everytime I read stuff like this it really irritates the snot out of me. The Orthodox church has always been Catholic. She has never lost her Catholicity. Maybe what you are referring to is the “Catholic” as in Roman Catholic? Yes, I would agree with you there.
StMarkEofE
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Orthodoc
Guest
AMEN! As an Orthodox Catholic I’m with you on this one. The Orthodox Catholic Church is that one ‘Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church’ in the Creed. It never left it. For it has never added to (like the RCC), subtracted from (like the Protestants), or changed (like the RCC & Protestants) those doctrines & dogmas believed when that ‘One Holy Catholic & Apostolic’ was still basically one and undivided. It is that same ‘One Holy CATHOLIC & Aposotolic Church’ in its original and undefiled form!
Orthodoc
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Matthew_P
Guest
Dear Orthodoc and StMarkEofE,
Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!
I wouldn’t get very irritated by such utter nonsense. The reality that both of you know quite well is that the Latin Church has been protesting the Orthodox Catholic faith for quite some time and it is no surprise that the Papal followers make such comments. I’ll re-post here a bit from another thread on the matter.
The Orthodox Church will always be the Catholic Church.
Here is the definition of the word Catholic from a Catholic source:
What “Catholic” Means
The Greek roots of the term “Catholic” mean “according to (kata-) the whole (holos),” or more colloquially, “universal.” At the beginning of the second century, we find in the letters of Ignatius the first surviving use of the term “Catholic” in reference to the Church. At that time, or shortly thereafter, it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others.
Universal means everyone. Here is the definition of the word Universal within a reliable dictionary.
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT: THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND
EVERLASTING COVENANT. IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL MEN SO THAT SINS ARE FORGIVEN. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
Now all of you would be a Catholic expression. One could say that children before the age of reason having not been chrismated would not be members or full members. Suffice it to say, either way the practices of the Latins preclude the authentic use of the word Catholic. Now these non-Catholic practices are taught and a reality of the Latin episcopacy who are with the bishop of Rome who is considered by the Latins to be infallible when speaking ex-cathedra.
These are not the notions and liturgical practices of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils which is the Orthodox Church which we can clearly see is in reality the Catholic Church, for the Orthodox Christ is and will always be the chief cornerstone.
Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!
I wouldn’t get very irritated by such utter nonsense. The reality that both of you know quite well is that the Latin Church has been protesting the Orthodox Catholic faith for quite some time and it is no surprise that the Papal followers make such comments. I’ll re-post here a bit from another thread on the matter.
The Orthodox Church will always be the Catholic Church.
Here is the definition of the word Catholic from a Catholic source:
What “Catholic” Means
The Greek roots of the term “Catholic” mean “according to (kata-) the whole (holos),” or more colloquially, “universal.” At the beginning of the second century, we find in the letters of Ignatius the first surviving use of the term “Catholic” in reference to the Church. At that time, or shortly thereafter, it was used to refer to a single, visible communion, separate from others.
Universal means everyone. Here is the definition of the word Universal within a reliable dictionary.
- Of, relating to, extending to, or affecting the entire world or all within the world; worldwide: “This discovery of literature has as yet only partially penetrated the universal consciousness”
- Including, relating to, or affecting all members of the class or group under consideration: the universal skepticism of philosophers.
- Applicable or common to all purposes, conditions, or situations: a universal remedy.
- Of or relating to the universe or cosmos; cosmic.
- Knowledgeable about or constituting all or many subjects;
comprehensively broad. - Adapted or adjustable to many sizes or mechanical uses.
- Logic. Encompassing all of the members of a class or group. Used of a proposition.
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT: THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND
EVERLASTING COVENANT. IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL MEN SO THAT SINS ARE FORGIVEN. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
Now all of you would be a Catholic expression. One could say that children before the age of reason having not been chrismated would not be members or full members. Suffice it to say, either way the practices of the Latins preclude the authentic use of the word Catholic. Now these non-Catholic practices are taught and a reality of the Latin episcopacy who are with the bishop of Rome who is considered by the Latins to be infallible when speaking ex-cathedra.
These are not the notions and liturgical practices of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils which is the Orthodox Church which we can clearly see is in reality the Catholic Church, for the Orthodox Christ is and will always be the chief cornerstone.
M
Matthew_P
Guest
Matthew 19
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
When a child approaches the Eucharist in the Latin Mass they are denied the Eucharist.
Matthew 26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27: Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
The Latins beleive and that in order to be truly Catholic one must be in communion with the Apostolic see of Rome. But the very sad reality which can be seen in many Latin Churchs for the past 1000 years or so is that a child not having reached the age of reason can not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
This reality is the result of the adjusting the original order of the sacraments by the Latins. Some actually will be truthful having looked into it and agree. If you believe in Papal infallibility and what the Latins teach and do can one really be Catholic?
There is no doubt in my mind that if the Laitn faithful and parents can accept violations of the heart, accepting other distortions, such as the Papacy of today is easy. So many other dividing matters that are misinterpreted or strangly re-written cab only lead to more of the same. The question really is why do such things to yourselves and others?
Do keep in mind that it is the aforementioned doctrinal unity that is referenced in the letter of St. Ignatius to St. Polycarp which Fr. Georges Florovsky explains.
“This is the first written use, which has come down to us of the term “Catholic” Church. The word “catholic” means in Greek “universal” but the conception of catholicity cannot be measured by its world-wide expansion — “universality” does not express the Greek meaning exactly. Καθολική comes from καθ’ ολου, which first of all means the inner wholeness, not only of communion and in any case not of a simple empirical communion. Καθ’ ολου is not the same as κατά παντός. It belongs not to the phenomenal and empirical, but to the nominal and ontological plane. It describes the very essence and not the external manifestations. If “catholic” also means “universal,” it certainly is not an empirical universality but rather an ideal one: the communion of ideas, not of facts, is what is meant. St. Ignatius’ use of the word is precisely this. This word gives prominence to the orthodoxy of the Church, to the truth of the Church in contrast with the spirit of sectarian separatism and particularize. He is expressing the idea of integrity and purity.”
This doctrinal unity is also clearly seen in Orthodox worship, for there is a relationship between doctrinal unity and liturgical unity. This is the faith of our Fathers the Orthodox Catholic Church irrespective of what others say. Recently a Latin Cardinal had this to say regarding the Latin changes and liturgical renewal;
A change in space, in architecture and in the placement of altars and other liturgical furnishings, has similar effect, as has a change in language, which carries and conditions our thinking and evaluating. A change in Liturgy changes the context of the Church’s life. Recently, introducing the changes mandated by the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal (third typical edition), I remarked that the changes were “minor”. A lay woman of the Archdiocese of Chicago corrected me: “Cardinal, there are no minor changes in Liturgy”. She is correct.
adoremus.org/0304CardinalGeorgeSC40th.html
Some here claim there have been not changes in the Latin Church, I suppose when such changes are lived out one really can’t see them and is blinded by them so to speak.
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
When a child approaches the Eucharist in the Latin Mass they are denied the Eucharist.
Matthew 26
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27: Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
The Latins beleive and that in order to be truly Catholic one must be in communion with the Apostolic see of Rome. But the very sad reality which can be seen in many Latin Churchs for the past 1000 years or so is that a child not having reached the age of reason can not receive the Body and Blood of Christ.
This reality is the result of the adjusting the original order of the sacraments by the Latins. Some actually will be truthful having looked into it and agree. If you believe in Papal infallibility and what the Latins teach and do can one really be Catholic?
There is no doubt in my mind that if the Laitn faithful and parents can accept violations of the heart, accepting other distortions, such as the Papacy of today is easy. So many other dividing matters that are misinterpreted or strangly re-written cab only lead to more of the same. The question really is why do such things to yourselves and others?
Do keep in mind that it is the aforementioned doctrinal unity that is referenced in the letter of St. Ignatius to St. Polycarp which Fr. Georges Florovsky explains.
“This is the first written use, which has come down to us of the term “Catholic” Church. The word “catholic” means in Greek “universal” but the conception of catholicity cannot be measured by its world-wide expansion — “universality” does not express the Greek meaning exactly. Καθολική comes from καθ’ ολου, which first of all means the inner wholeness, not only of communion and in any case not of a simple empirical communion. Καθ’ ολου is not the same as κατά παντός. It belongs not to the phenomenal and empirical, but to the nominal and ontological plane. It describes the very essence and not the external manifestations. If “catholic” also means “universal,” it certainly is not an empirical universality but rather an ideal one: the communion of ideas, not of facts, is what is meant. St. Ignatius’ use of the word is precisely this. This word gives prominence to the orthodoxy of the Church, to the truth of the Church in contrast with the spirit of sectarian separatism and particularize. He is expressing the idea of integrity and purity.”
This doctrinal unity is also clearly seen in Orthodox worship, for there is a relationship between doctrinal unity and liturgical unity. This is the faith of our Fathers the Orthodox Catholic Church irrespective of what others say. Recently a Latin Cardinal had this to say regarding the Latin changes and liturgical renewal;
A change in space, in architecture and in the placement of altars and other liturgical furnishings, has similar effect, as has a change in language, which carries and conditions our thinking and evaluating. A change in Liturgy changes the context of the Church’s life. Recently, introducing the changes mandated by the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal (third typical edition), I remarked that the changes were “minor”. A lay woman of the Archdiocese of Chicago corrected me: “Cardinal, there are no minor changes in Liturgy”. She is correct.
adoremus.org/0304CardinalGeorgeSC40th.html
Some here claim there have been not changes in the Latin Church, I suppose when such changes are lived out one really can’t see them and is blinded by them so to speak.
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