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BibleSteve
Guest
Po18guy suggested the NWT was wrong in not including the Deuterocanon because Jesus and the Apostles quoted from it. I asked for specifics and this is what he provided. I will be testing the evidence provided.
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BibleSteve
Guest
Let me first ask a couple questions about the book of Tobit.
Based on my reading, I understand that a pious old Jew was blinded by bird’s dung falling in both of his eyes; that an angel impersonating a human became the traveling companion of his son, whom the old man sent to collect a debt; that on the way the son acquired the heart, liver and gall of a fish; that by burning the heart and liver he caused a stench that drove away a certain demon, who, in jealousy, had killed seven husbands of a certain woman; that this widow then married the son, who, after accomplishing his mission, returned home and restored the sight of his father by placing the gall of the fish on his eyes.
At first glance this story seems very odd to me, with an unusual amount of superstition and magic. (Tobit 6:5, 8, 9,*19; 8:2,*3; 11:8-15; 12:3)
And, it seems to include a major error. For example, the account states that in his youth Tobit saw the revolt of the northern tribes, which occurred in 997*B.C.E. after Solomon’s death (Tobit 1:4,5), also that he was later deported to Nineveh with the tribe of Naphtali, in 740B.C.E. (Tobias 1:11-13) That would mean that he lived more than 257 years. Yet Tobias 14:1-3 says he was 102 years old at the time of his death.
How do you explain this error?
Based on my reading, I understand that a pious old Jew was blinded by bird’s dung falling in both of his eyes; that an angel impersonating a human became the traveling companion of his son, whom the old man sent to collect a debt; that on the way the son acquired the heart, liver and gall of a fish; that by burning the heart and liver he caused a stench that drove away a certain demon, who, in jealousy, had killed seven husbands of a certain woman; that this widow then married the son, who, after accomplishing his mission, returned home and restored the sight of his father by placing the gall of the fish on his eyes.
At first glance this story seems very odd to me, with an unusual amount of superstition and magic. (Tobit 6:5, 8, 9,*19; 8:2,*3; 11:8-15; 12:3)
And, it seems to include a major error. For example, the account states that in his youth Tobit saw the revolt of the northern tribes, which occurred in 997*B.C.E. after Solomon’s death (Tobit 1:4,5), also that he was later deported to Nineveh with the tribe of Naphtali, in 740B.C.E. (Tobias 1:11-13) That would mean that he lived more than 257 years. Yet Tobias 14:1-3 says he was 102 years old at the time of his death.
How do you explain this error?
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BibleSteve
Guest
po18guy’s first piece of evidence for Tobit’s canoncity is this claim:
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
(Matthew 11:25) At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.
Tobit 7:15-20 And taking the right hand of his daughter, he gave it into the right hand of Tobias, saying: The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob be with you, and may he join you together, and fulfil his blessing in you. And taking paper they made a writing of the marriage. And afterwards they made merry, blessing God. And Raguel called to him Anna his wife, and bade her prepare another chamber. And she brought Sara her daughter in thither, and she wept. And she said to her: Be of good cheer, my daughter: **the Lord of heaven **give thee joy for the trouble thou hast undergone.
So, actually Jesus called his Father “Lord of Heaven and Earth”, while Tobit called God “the Lord of heaven”…
My question is this. Does this REALLY prove Jesus was quoting from the book of Tobit?
YHWH is called “the Lord of the whole earth” several times in the Bible (Joshua 3:11, Psa 97:5, Micah 4:13; Zech 4:14; Zech 6:5)
At Psa 136:3 YHWH was called “Lord of the lords”
At Dan 2:47 YHWH was called “Lord of Kings”
How do you rate this as a proof text that Jesus was specifically quoting from the book of Tobit?
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
(Matthew 11:25) At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.
Tobit 7:15-20 And taking the right hand of his daughter, he gave it into the right hand of Tobias, saying: The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob be with you, and may he join you together, and fulfil his blessing in you. And taking paper they made a writing of the marriage. And afterwards they made merry, blessing God. And Raguel called to him Anna his wife, and bade her prepare another chamber. And she brought Sara her daughter in thither, and she wept. And she said to her: Be of good cheer, my daughter: **the Lord of heaven **give thee joy for the trouble thou hast undergone.
So, actually Jesus called his Father “Lord of Heaven and Earth”, while Tobit called God “the Lord of heaven”…
My question is this. Does this REALLY prove Jesus was quoting from the book of Tobit?
YHWH is called “the Lord of the whole earth” several times in the Bible (Joshua 3:11, Psa 97:5, Micah 4:13; Zech 4:14; Zech 6:5)
At Psa 136:3 YHWH was called “Lord of the lords”
At Dan 2:47 YHWH was called “Lord of Kings”
How do you rate this as a proof text that Jesus was specifically quoting from the book of Tobit?
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BibleSteve
Guest
The next evidence about Tobit’s potential canonicity is this:
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Here’s the scene:
(Matthew 22:23-29) On that day Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came up to him and asked him: 24*“Teacher, Moses said, ‘If any man dies without having children, his brother must take his wife in marriage and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and deceased, and, not having offspring, he left his wife for his brother. 26It went the same way also with the second and the third, until through all seven. 27Last of all the woman died. 28Consequently, in the resurrection, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all got her.” 29*In reply Jesus said to them: “YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God;
So, the Sadducess were hardly good examples. They didn’t believe in the resurrection, nor in angels (Acts 23:8); needed to produce fruits befitting repentance because they, like the Pharisees, had failed to keep God’s law. (Mt 3:7,*8) Christ Jesus himself compared their corrupting teaching to leaven.—Mt 16:6, 11,*12. Sadducees were members of the Sanhedrin, which court plotted against Jesus and, later, condemned him to death. Included in the court were Caiaphas, the Sadducee and high priest, and evidently also other prominent priests. (Mt 26:59-66; Joh 11:47-53; Ac 5:17,*21) Therefore, whenever the Christian Greek Scriptures speak of certain action as being taken by the chief priests, Sadducees were evidently involved. (Mt 21:45,*46; 26:3, 4, 62-64; 28:11,*12; Joh 7:32) Sadducees appear to have taken the lead in trying to stop the spread of Christianity after Jesus’ death and resurrection.—Ac 4:1-23; 5:17-42; 9:14.
So, does the fact that the Sadducees attempated to stump Jesus with an example that is similar to a story in the book Tobit prove anything about the inspiration and Jesus approval for the book?
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Here’s the scene:
(Matthew 22:23-29) On that day Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came up to him and asked him: 24*“Teacher, Moses said, ‘If any man dies without having children, his brother must take his wife in marriage and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and deceased, and, not having offspring, he left his wife for his brother. 26It went the same way also with the second and the third, until through all seven. 27Last of all the woman died. 28Consequently, in the resurrection, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all got her.” 29*In reply Jesus said to them: “YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God;
So, the Sadducess were hardly good examples. They didn’t believe in the resurrection, nor in angels (Acts 23:8); needed to produce fruits befitting repentance because they, like the Pharisees, had failed to keep God’s law. (Mt 3:7,*8) Christ Jesus himself compared their corrupting teaching to leaven.—Mt 16:6, 11,*12. Sadducees were members of the Sanhedrin, which court plotted against Jesus and, later, condemned him to death. Included in the court were Caiaphas, the Sadducee and high priest, and evidently also other prominent priests. (Mt 26:59-66; Joh 11:47-53; Ac 5:17,*21) Therefore, whenever the Christian Greek Scriptures speak of certain action as being taken by the chief priests, Sadducees were evidently involved. (Mt 21:45,*46; 26:3, 4, 62-64; 28:11,*12; Joh 7:32) Sadducees appear to have taken the lead in trying to stop the spread of Christianity after Jesus’ death and resurrection.—Ac 4:1-23; 5:17-42; 9:14.
So, does the fact that the Sadducees attempated to stump Jesus with an example that is similar to a story in the book Tobit prove anything about the inspiration and Jesus approval for the book?
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BibleSteve
Guest
The next evidence about Tobit’s potential canonicity is this:
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Here’s the scene:
(Matthew 22:23-29) On that day Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came up to him and asked him: 24*“Teacher, Moses said, ‘If any man dies without having children, his brother must take his wife in marriage and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and deceased, and, not having offspring, he left his wife for his brother. 26It went the same way also with the second and the third, until through all seven. 27Last of all the woman died. 28Consequently, in the resurrection, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all got her.” 29*In reply Jesus said to them: “YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God;
So, the Sadducess were hardly good examples. They didn’t believe in the resurrection, nor in angels (Acts 23:8); needed to produce fruits befitting repentance because they, like the Pharisees, had failed to keep God’s law. (Mt 3:7,*8) Christ Jesus himself compared their corrupting teaching to leaven.—Mt 16:6, 11,*12. Sadducees were members of the Sanhedrin, which court plotted against Jesus and, later, condemned him to death. Included in the court were Caiaphas, the Sadducee and high priest, and evidently also other prominent priests. (Mt 26:59-66; Joh 11:47-53; Ac 5:17,*21) Therefore, whenever the New Testament speaks of certain action as being taken by the chief priests, Sadducees were evidently involved. (Mt 21:45,*46; 26:3, 4, 62-64; 28:11,*12; Joh 7:32) Sadducees appear to have taken the lead in trying to stop the spread of Christianity after Jesus’ death and resurrection.—Ac 4:1-23; 5:17-42; 9:14.
So, does the fact that the Sadducees attempted to stump Jesus with an example that is similar to a story in the book Tobit prove anything about the inspiration and Jesus approval for the book?
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Here’s the scene:
(Matthew 22:23-29) On that day Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came up to him and asked him: 24*“Teacher, Moses said, ‘If any man dies without having children, his brother must take his wife in marriage and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and deceased, and, not having offspring, he left his wife for his brother. 26It went the same way also with the second and the third, until through all seven. 27Last of all the woman died. 28Consequently, in the resurrection, to which of the seven will she be wife? For they all got her.” 29*In reply Jesus said to them: “YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God;
So, the Sadducess were hardly good examples. They didn’t believe in the resurrection, nor in angels (Acts 23:8); needed to produce fruits befitting repentance because they, like the Pharisees, had failed to keep God’s law. (Mt 3:7,*8) Christ Jesus himself compared their corrupting teaching to leaven.—Mt 16:6, 11,*12. Sadducees were members of the Sanhedrin, which court plotted against Jesus and, later, condemned him to death. Included in the court were Caiaphas, the Sadducee and high priest, and evidently also other prominent priests. (Mt 26:59-66; Joh 11:47-53; Ac 5:17,*21) Therefore, whenever the New Testament speaks of certain action as being taken by the chief priests, Sadducees were evidently involved. (Mt 21:45,*46; 26:3, 4, 62-64; 28:11,*12; Joh 7:32) Sadducees appear to have taken the lead in trying to stop the spread of Christianity after Jesus’ death and resurrection.—Ac 4:1-23; 5:17-42; 9:14.
So, does the fact that the Sadducees attempted to stump Jesus with an example that is similar to a story in the book Tobit prove anything about the inspiration and Jesus approval for the book?
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dolphinlove
Guest
What denom are you?
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BibleSteve
Guest
I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses
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JMBNH
Guest
Tobit stands up to historicity about as well as Daniel and Esther so I don’t think things like that exclude it as such without excluding other Old Testament books. The fact is that the deuterocanonicals were quoted by Early Church Fathers as Scriptures (they were first doubted in the 4th Century and only by people who had heard from Jews who had different Scripture). Also while Tobit only has a couple of allusions in the New Testament, the Wisdom of Solomon is one of the most quoted Old Testament books in the New Testament
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inthecloud
Guest
I believe that protestants should have followed the advice of Luther and the original KJV 1611 and let the deuterocanons in the Bible and let people read them and use their private judgement to see what reasons can come out of those books.
BTW Daniel and Esther were written at the same time.
From a JW perspective the most troublesome book might be Wisdom. Since is against soul sleep.
BTW Daniel and Esther were written at the same time.
From a JW perspective the most troublesome book might be Wisdom. Since is against soul sleep.
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BibleSteve
Guest
As this conversation develops, I will be glad to make a specific defense for Daniel and Esther. But at this point, the discussion is focussed on po18guy’s insistance that Tobit is inspired and his complaint that it hasn’t been included.Tobit stands up to historicity about as well as Daniel and Esther so I don’t think things like that exclude it as such without excluding other Old Testament books. The fact is that the deuterocanonicals were quoted by Early Church Fathers as Scriptures (they were first doubted in the 4th Century and only by people who had heard from Jews who had different Scripture). Also while Tobit only has a couple of allusions in the New Testament, the Wisdom of Solomon is one of the most quoted Old Testament books in the New Testament
I’m examining his specific claims that Jesus and his Apostles quoted from it.
Please add any specific evidence of this book’s inspiration.
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BibleSteve
Guest
The next proof text provided on po18guy’s list is:
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
How is this a proof text of the inspiration of Tobit?
(Luke 2:25-32) And, look! there was a man in Jerusalem named Sim´e•on, and this man was righteous and reverent, waiting for Israel’s consolation, and holy spirit was upon him. 26 Furthermore, it had been divinely revealed to him by the holy spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Christ. 27 Under the power of the spirit he now came into the temple; and as the parents brought the young child Jesus in to do for it according to the customary practice of the law, 28 he himself received it into his arms and blessed God and said: 29 “Now, Sovereign Lord, you are letting your slave go free in peace according to your declaration; 30 because my eyes have seen your means of saving 31 that you have made ready in the sight of all the peoples, 32 a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel.”
(Tobit 11:1-10) But Anna sat beside the way daily, on the top of a hill, from whence she might see afar off. And while she watched his coming from that place, she saw him afar off, and presently perceived it was her son coming: and returning she told her husband, saying: Behold thy son cometh. And Raphael said to Tobias: As soon as thou shalt come into thy house, forthwith adore the Lord thy God: and giving thanks to him, go to thy father, and kiss him. And immediately anoint his eyes with this gall of the fish, which thou carriest with thee. For be assured that his eyes shall be presently opened, and thy father shall see the light of heaven, and shall rejoice in the sight of thee. Then the dog, which had been with them in the way, ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. And his father that was blind, rising up, began to run stumbling with his feet: and giving a servant his hand, went to meet his son. And receiving him kissed him, as did also his wife, and they began to weep for joy. And when they had adored God, and given him thanks, they sat down together. Then Tobias taking of the gall of the fish, anointed his father’s eyes. And he stayed about half an hour: and a white skin began to come out of his eyes, like the skin of an egg.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
How is this a proof text of the inspiration of Tobit?
(Luke 2:25-32) And, look! there was a man in Jerusalem named Sim´e•on, and this man was righteous and reverent, waiting for Israel’s consolation, and holy spirit was upon him. 26 Furthermore, it had been divinely revealed to him by the holy spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Christ. 27 Under the power of the spirit he now came into the temple; and as the parents brought the young child Jesus in to do for it according to the customary practice of the law, 28 he himself received it into his arms and blessed God and said: 29 “Now, Sovereign Lord, you are letting your slave go free in peace according to your declaration; 30 because my eyes have seen your means of saving 31 that you have made ready in the sight of all the peoples, 32 a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel.”
(Tobit 11:1-10) But Anna sat beside the way daily, on the top of a hill, from whence she might see afar off. And while she watched his coming from that place, she saw him afar off, and presently perceived it was her son coming: and returning she told her husband, saying: Behold thy son cometh. And Raphael said to Tobias: As soon as thou shalt come into thy house, forthwith adore the Lord thy God: and giving thanks to him, go to thy father, and kiss him. And immediately anoint his eyes with this gall of the fish, which thou carriest with thee. For be assured that his eyes shall be presently opened, and thy father shall see the light of heaven, and shall rejoice in the sight of thee. Then the dog, which had been with them in the way, ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. And his father that was blind, rising up, began to run stumbling with his feet: and giving a servant his hand, went to meet his son. And receiving him kissed him, as did also his wife, and they began to weep for joy. And when they had adored God, and given him thanks, they sat down together. Then Tobias taking of the gall of the fish, anointed his father’s eyes. And he stayed about half an hour: and a white skin began to come out of his eyes, like the skin of an egg.
J
johnnykins
Guest
Look - the Septuagint Canon includes the Deuterocanonicals. It was the Greek translation used by Paul and the entire Church before the Masoretes. That the Jews wanted to be sure and exclude the new Christian writings (the Gospels and Epistles + Revalation) from the Canon of Scripture is at least one reason for the rules excluding the Deuteros by the Masoretes despite having been used for about 200 years by Hellenic Jews (i.e., since the LXX translations).
If minor discrepancies bother you - you might want to chew on the discrepancy between the Syncretics and John on the date of the Last Supper. That sort of proofing only leads one to toss out the Gospels.
If minor discrepancies bother you - you might want to chew on the discrepancy between the Syncretics and John on the date of the Last Supper. That sort of proofing only leads one to toss out the Gospels.
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Rightlydivide
Guest
We do not know what books the Septuagint of the time of Jesus included because the surviving copies of the Septuagint have differeing books!Look - the Septuagint Canon includes the Deuterocanonicals. It was the Greek translation used by Paul and the entire Church before the Masoretes. That the Jews wanted to be sure and exclude the new Christian writings (the Gospels and Epistles + Revalation) from the Canon of Scripture is at least one reason for the rules excluding the Deuteros by the Masoretes despite having been used for about 200 years by Hellenic Jews (i.e., since the LXX translations).
If minor discrepancies bother you - you might want to chew on the discrepancy between the Syncretics and John on the date of the Last Supper. That sort of proofing only leads one to toss out the Gospels.
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BibleSteve
Guest
Dear po18guy,
This thread was started based on this comment from you about the Deuterocanon:
Please advise.
This thread was started based on this comment from you about the Deuterocanon:
So far, I’ve looked at all the evidence you’ve provided about the first book on the list, Tobit, and I can’t find anything from it that Christ and the Apostles quoted.Your “NWT” does not have this Sacred Scripture even though Christ and the Apostles quoted from it. Does this concern you at all?
Please advise.
B
BibleSteve
Guest
There’s also one other observation I have about why Tobit conflicts with the rest of the Bible.
The Bible is singularly different from the writings of other ancient people in that its references to uncanny powers and magical arts are all condemnatory. Nowhere does it recommend “white” magic to cancel spells of “black” magic. Rather, it urges faith, prayer, and trust in YHWH as the protection against unseen “wicked spirit forces” and all their related activities, including magical influences. (Eph 6:11-18) In the Psalms the righteous pray for deliverance from evil; Jesus taught us to pray for deliverance “from the wicked one.” (Mt 6:13) The Talmud and the Koran, on the other hand, give way to superstition and fear. The book of Tobit contains several passages which encourage magic-working sorcery.—Tobit 6:5, 8, 9,*19; 8:2,*3; 11:8-15; 12:3;
The Bible is singularly different from the writings of other ancient people in that its references to uncanny powers and magical arts are all condemnatory. Nowhere does it recommend “white” magic to cancel spells of “black” magic. Rather, it urges faith, prayer, and trust in YHWH as the protection against unseen “wicked spirit forces” and all their related activities, including magical influences. (Eph 6:11-18) In the Psalms the righteous pray for deliverance from evil; Jesus taught us to pray for deliverance “from the wicked one.” (Mt 6:13) The Talmud and the Koran, on the other hand, give way to superstition and fear. The book of Tobit contains several passages which encourage magic-working sorcery.—Tobit 6:5, 8, 9,*19; 8:2,*3; 11:8-15; 12:3;
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inthecloud
Guest
Remeber that the Bible did not appear in a vacumm. Tobit and the Talmud reflect the beliefs of Jews in those times.
For example the same people that canonized the Masoretic Canon= the Pharisees are the same people that wrote the Talmud so eventually their beliefs are not only reflected in the Bible canon but in the Talmud too.
Same for the early church and the New Testament canon and the deutorocanon. The early churches choose the books that in their opinion reflected their beliefs.
The Jews gave us the OT, the early church gave us the NT.
The reason the Pharisees did not canonize Tobit were that the book was written in Palestine, possibly in Aramaic and they were closing the canon to all books that were not in Rabbi Hillel list and not written in Hebrew with some exceptions (Daniel, Esther).
The early church have no reason to follow the Pharisees on the canon and made her own canon.
Other books were excluded for other reasons by the Pharisees.
Maccabees 1 and 2, too political, not fully edited. Same for Judith.
Tobit. Language.
Wisdom, too Christian, written in Greek in Alexandria, again too Christian. (I have heard Rabbis say that that books belongs in the NT). Ben Sirach, too Syrian, too Antioch, by default too Christian.
For example the same people that canonized the Masoretic Canon= the Pharisees are the same people that wrote the Talmud so eventually their beliefs are not only reflected in the Bible canon but in the Talmud too.
Same for the early church and the New Testament canon and the deutorocanon. The early churches choose the books that in their opinion reflected their beliefs.
The Jews gave us the OT, the early church gave us the NT.
The reason the Pharisees did not canonize Tobit were that the book was written in Palestine, possibly in Aramaic and they were closing the canon to all books that were not in Rabbi Hillel list and not written in Hebrew with some exceptions (Daniel, Esther).
The early church have no reason to follow the Pharisees on the canon and made her own canon.
Other books were excluded for other reasons by the Pharisees.
Maccabees 1 and 2, too political, not fully edited. Same for Judith.
Tobit. Language.
Wisdom, too Christian, written in Greek in Alexandria, again too Christian. (I have heard Rabbis say that that books belongs in the NT). Ben Sirach, too Syrian, too Antioch, by default too Christian.
S
swariffin
Guest
Nope, PO18guy is correct. The Deuterocanon existed 120 years prior to Jesus’ birth. The Septuagint included those, and the Septuagint was used by the Israelites outside the land of Judea. The Septuagint was also already existed 120 BC. The churches established by Paul must have used it, especially for those Israelite born outside the land of Judea, and well versed in Greek rather than in Hebrew. Just like Chinese decendents all over the world born and live outside china, unable to speak nor read chinese anymore.Po18guy suggested the NWT was wrong in not including the Deuterocanon because Jesus and the Apostles quoted from it. I asked for specifics and this is what he provided. I will be testing the evidence provided.
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BibleSteve
Guest
po18guy said Jesus and his Apostles quoted from it… they did not.Nope, PO18guy is correct. The Deuterocanon existed 120 years prior to Jesus’ birth. The Septuagint included those, and the Septuagint was used by the Israelites outside the land of Judea. The Septuagint was also already existed 120 BC. The churches established by Paul must have used it, especially for those Israelite born outside the land of Judea, and well versed in Greek rather than in Hebrew. Just like Chinese decendents all over the world born and live outside china, unable to speak nor read chinese anymore.
The book of Tobit has grave errors which I pointed out and promotes activities condemned in the rest of the Bible.
The book shows no evidence of inspiration and I’m wondering what points of value people see in it.
It is most unlikely that the original Greek Septuagint contained these books. But even if some of these writings of doubtful origin crept into subsequent copies of the Septuagint circulated in Jesus’ day, neither he nor the writers of the New Testament Scriptures quoted from them even though using the Septuagint; they never cited as “Scripture” or the product of holy spirit any Deuterocanon writing. So, not only do these books lack internal evidence of divine inspiration and attestation by ancient inspired writers of the Old Testament but they also lack the stamp of approval by Jesus and his divinely accredited apostles. However, Jesus did approve the Hebrew canon, referring to the entire Hebrew Scriptures when he spoke of “all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms,” the Psalms being the first and longest book in the section called the Hagiographa or Holy Writings.—Lu 24:44.
P
Pax
Guest
You have a lot of built in bias at work in your analysis and have no understanding whatsoever of the book in question. The book of Tobit has a great deal of symbolism within it. What you consider to be “magic” is actually symbolic and certain ritual like actions are done as obedience and a sign of faith. This book is not unlike the wisdom literature of the OT. There is far too much for me to comment on and I would suggest that you get a Catholic commentary to understand the book.There’s also one other observation I have about why Tobit conflicts with the rest of the Bible.
The Bible is singularly different from the writings of other ancient people in that its references to uncanny powers and magical arts are all condemnatory. Nowhere does it recommend “white” magic to cancel spells of “black” magic. Rather, it urges faith, prayer, and trust in YHWH as the protection against unseen “wicked spirit forces” and all their related activities, including magical influences. (Eph 6:11-18) In the Psalms the righteous pray for deliverance from evil; Jesus taught us to pray for deliverance “from the wicked one.” (Mt 6:13) The Talmud and the Koran, on the other hand, give way to superstition and fear. The book of Tobit contains several passages which encourage magic-working sorcery.—Tobit 6:5, 8, 9,*19; 8:2,*3; 11:8-15; 12:3;
You are incorrect in stating that the rest of the OT always condemns what you seem to think is related to “magic.” Please recall the incident in the book of Numbers when the people were being bit by serpents. Moses was instructed by Yahweh to make a fiery serpent and to put it on a pole for all of the people to look at. Moses then made a bronze serpent as instructed. When the people that were bitten by the serpents looked at the bronze serpent on the pole they lived. This sounds pretty superstitious when using your standards.
Likewise, many OT practices and commands such as those found in Leviticus seem to be totally superstitious by applying your standards. Try this one:
Lev 1:10-17
"If his gift for a burnt offering is from the flock, from the sheep or goats, he shall offer a male without blemish; and he shall kill it on the north side of the altar before the Lord, and Aaron’s sons the priests shall throw its blood against the altar round about. And he shall cut it into pieces, with its head and its fat, and the priest shall lay them in order upon the wood that is on the fire upon the altar; but the entrails and the legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer the whole, and burn it on the altar; it is a burnt offering, an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the Lord. “If his offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds, then he shall bring his offering of turtledoves or of young pigeons. And the priest shall bring it to the altar and wring off its head, and burn it on the altar; and its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar; and he shall take away its crop with the feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east side, in the place for ashes; he shall tear it by its wings, but shall not divide it asunder. And the priest shall burn it on the altar, upon the wood that is on the fire; it is a burnt offering, an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the Lord.”[See also Lev 3:3-17, and many others.]
By your standards this is a set of superstitious practices. You accept the Book of Numbers and you accept the Book of Leviticus. I do not see why your criticisms of Tobit should invalidate its canonicity without invalidating these other two books or even others in the OT.
It would be very helpful for you to study the book of Tobit using a good Catholic Biblical commentary. You and I are simply not qualified and educated enough to do without a commentary for most of scripture anyway. You somehow are operating on the assumption that you can appreciate the book of Tobit without a good commentary. I think this is a recipe for failure and misunderstanding.
Please be advised that Augustine and Ambrose both supported it as inspired and that the 4th century Councils of Carthage, Hippo, and Rome all considered it to be inspired. Somehow, I do not think that your view is supported by the historical view or by your personal analysis.
P
Pax
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This is idle speculation on your part.po18guy said Jesus and his Apostles quoted from it… they did not.
The book of Tobit has grave errors which I pointed out and promotes activities condemned in the rest of the Bible.
The book shows no evidence of inspiration and I’m wondering what points of value people see in it.
It is most unlikely that the original Greek Septuagint contained these books.
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The justifications used by Jews in the Christian era to dismiss the deuterocanonical books like Tobit are not those that you use. They rejected the books using several criteria. One of the most important was that they believed that the manuscripts had to be originally written in Hebrew. Unfortunately, they did not have much of any evidence of what was what after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD. In fact only a very small number of Pharisees were left. The others such as the Saducees were basically wiped out. Many of their decisions were rather arbitrary reactions against Christianity.
Tobit and other deuterocanonical books, if not all of them, were written in Hebrew and these later Jews simply did not know it. Our proof of the Hebrew comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls. The important criteria of Hebrew originals for exclusion used by the Jewish leadership has been made moot. Their objections don’t carry any weight for Christians. If they did, we would have to disqualify the entire NT. The reformers glommed onto the Jewish OT canon criteria for doctrinal reasons alone even though these books were considered scripture for over 1500 years.
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